Discussion Is Karen the Death of Night March and Vespiquen?

[crowfeather4]

For those of you who don't know, Karen is a card that will be released in Japan and eventually here. It is a supporter card that says each player shuffles all the Pokémon from their discard pile back into their decks. This poses a big problem to Night March and Vespiquen, enough to make them unviable, but what do you guys think?

 

[bbninjas]

I don't think it will be the death, but it will potentially weaken the archetype. The advantage for the non-Night March player is that Karen only shuffles Pokemon, which means it doesn't shuffle back Battle Compressors like Trump Card. This means it will be more difficult for the Night March player to recover.

Of course, Karen is a little situational. It is a mostly dead card against any non-Vespiquen, non-Night March deck and non-mill deck, and it takes up space. This is obviously not an ideal situation. You also need to draw into Karen at the right time for it to be effective. If you don't draw into it, your opponent could easily get ahead in the prize trade. A Night March player can also be smart in managing their resources, using Puzzle of Time to get back Battle Compressors, or just not use them all in the first place (which means that your Karen could even end up useless - wasting your turn's supporter!). A player that manages resources well could get recover relatively quickly from a Karen, and easily take their final prizes.

 

[PMJ]

Depends on the deck. The key is to force the deck to have to choose between recycling DCE or Battle Compressor. Consecutive Karen plays during the late game can also seal their fates.

 

[Otaku]

It may also just make the decks in question shift tactics a little. Not sure what Night March or Vespiquen/Flareon [Plasma] decks will do, but Vespiquen/Vileplume will make it more difficult to use Karen (you can't Battle Compressor it and then use a VS Seeker). All that deck needs is a solid backup attacker.

 

[poke4trade]

Yes and No. Trainers never really played night march competitively until LT was banned. Once LT was banned, NM came on the competitive scene like a bat out of hell. I think there will be some trainers that will not like the hard counter and completely give up on the deck. Why -- because trainers don't like counters to their decks --in other words, the game is setup to look for an unfair advantage against one other.

On the other hand, I think there will be other trainers that will risk it for the biscuit and still play it, knowing there will be one in every deck.

Disclaimer: Once they get hit by it twice in a competitive competition, I think trainers will get salty quick, and look for another dominant deck. Before Shaymin EX, that is what happened to NM because they couldn't get anything out of the deck without a draw supporter. Now, they won't get their items back, and they can't drop everything into the discard at start. Once that happens, it's darn near being item locked, without you know, being item locked. And there won't be enough puzzles of time to help with it.

You see the NM match up and battle compress one Karren into the discard pile, and that will completely change the way NM will be played competitively. It will be an easy play for a lot of decks.

 

[Micajah]

I don't think Night March and Vespiquen will completely go away. I just think the speed of their game would need to slow down, such as: only use a couple compressors, save my Puzzles, even slow down on my T mail. I think night march will still be a strong deck, but i guess only time will tell.

 

[pokedan24]

At this point, the only thing I see killing night march is the rotation.

 

[Sabaku]

To answer your question: Yes, but only if we don't get cards that turn the discard pile into a "hands off" area. Karen not only exists as a dedicated means to deal with Night March and Flareon/Bees, but is also an indirect way of preventing Maxies or Archies. If there was a card to prevent players from removing cards from their discard pile (either by shuffling them back into the deck, attaching Discard energy to other Pokemon, using Puzzle of Time, etc.), it would be moreso half and half since the Pokemon can stay in the Discard, but other cards can't come out. Overall, though, it's a slow death for Night March and Bees. They have to waste a lot of resources to get stuff in the Discard, and when one card ruins all that hard work, it's hard to come back from it.

 

[Ms Hugo]

NM will still be powerful because it's a 1-prize attacker deck that hits high amounts for a single attachment. Karen will, however, change its playstyle somewhat if it is teched into opposing decks. NM won't be able to throw the entire deck into the discard on the first few turns and then Puzzle of Time for DCEs for the rest of the game - it might have to save the Puzzles to recycle Battle Compressor, or even save a couple of Compressors for later on in the game.

Even then, Karen is reusable for a single VS Seeker - NM have to use at least 2 Compressors and who-knows-how-many Puzzle of Times to recover. If the opponent can chain Karens, they may be able to run NM out of resources and win purely through war of attrition...

 

[AuraJackle]

As an amazing supporter that not only kills Night march and provides a great way to get back pokemon from the discard Karen is truly what we needed for getting rid of such an annoyingly easy to play and overpowered deck.
To those arguing that NM will have to start playing carefully and holding in there Compressors, i'm guessing you have never played against or with NM. Night march is good and only good because of how explosive its starts are only using 2 battle compressors will not cut it against most decks. particularly those that still run EX and even when you get them in the discard a Karen will put them right back in. even after all that you get and you get a couple prizes a smart player will realize you wont be able to get any back in the discard and use Karen and from then you wont be able to do anything at all in the late game.

TL DR Night March will not be played by any serious players because of such a Hard counter. so everyone have fun making rouge decks that can actually do something now.

 

[LightningCloud224]

Trevenant can make very good use of Karen as a way of stopping night March or vespiquen from steam rolling them if they get an explosive first turn. It also recycles trees pieces but certainly doesn't replace super rod.

 

[asdjklghty]

Not kill, but force people to need skill. Karen will be most likely used in quick and simple decks like Seismitoad/Giratina or Seismitoad/Garbodor. Those decks have lots of room for Trainers and Quaking Punch+Karen pretty much seals the fate. I don't know why people aren't bringing this combo up. What's the point of using Puzzle of Time in this case? You won't use it prior to being hit with Karen because what's the point of holding onto a Compressor and Items are useless under Toad.

 

[poke4trade]

Not kill, but force people to need skill. Karen will be most likely used in quick and simple decks like Seismitoad/Giratina or Seismitoad/Garbodor. Those decks have lots of room for Trainers and Quaking Punch+Karen pretty much seals the fate. I don't know why people aren't bringing this combo up. What's the point of using Puzzle of Time in this case? You won't use it prior to being hit with Karen because what's the point of holding onto a Compressor and Items are useless under Toad.

Yes that will be a good combo too.

I think people are generally not bringing it up, because of the first turn trev. Karren will benefit those decks even more because of the circulation of stage cards. If Siesmitoad keeps laying shaymins down, like in the past, Trev. break will take a heavy prize card exchange by lysandring up pokemon and sticking them in the active. In standard at least, the toad just doesn't generates enough damage. And now, with fighting getting stronger I won't be surprised to see Karen in those decks to consistently spam regirocks and put a ton of pressure on toads and Giritinias. I think, right now, we are seeing some cards come out that balance the decks a bit, and in a few months I think trainers will need to look for decks that provide multiple tactics instead of one or two. I just think the evolution of the game is at a cusp and will force reconsideration of tactics over the coming months for standard.

Hard Counters:
Jolteon EX
Jerichi Promo
Moroark
Carbink
Karen
Glaceon Ex
Hex
Garbodor
Xerosic
Dendeme
Yveltal Ex
Bronzong (Prevent all damage to bench)

I think those are all good counters for any single minded tacit deck that is produced.

 

[Otaku]

TL DR Night March will not be played by any serious players because of such a Hard counter. so everyone have fun making rogue decks that can actually do something now.

What does making fun rogue decks have to do with Karen. It isn't like Night March is the deck that ruins all other decks.

This is Otaku. You know, that player that isn't very good but has been around a long time. The one who usually annoys the serious, competitive players because he just can't get what it is they are saying, and who is often told his complaints about game balance are due to him just not being a good enough player.

Even I know the basics of playing against a Night March deck and while the deck is quite plentiful, most of what I have been using for the last several months doesn't dread running into it. The exception is the Archeops variant that would lock down my Evolutions. There are plenty of other decks that hit hard and fast beyond Night March, Vespiquen, and Flareon [Plasma]. The various lock decks and durable big damage decks, those are what stifle a lot of my creativity, probably tied with just the general pace of the format. Rogue decks ought to be in even shorter supply now.

 

[GreatEclipse]

Looking purely at the benefit it brings the person playing it, Karen will be a nice replacement for the soon-to-be-rotated Sacred Ash in the handful of evolution heavy decks that currently run it. For anyone running a big basic deck with no fear of ever running out of Pokemon, the card will only ever be good for stopping Night March and Vespiquen, so if they stop being popular for a while, many people will cut it from the deck. So no, I don't think it will be the end for them, but they will see far less play, and only in specific metagames.

 

[Jeffyocalypse]

A single Supporter Card is not enough to make the most popular//effective META Deck available to date unviable.... I'd like to think that they would put an end to Night March eventually (and that is coming from a fellow Night Marcher) but Karen seems to only be a simple beginning. It will take a lot more to completely stop Night March from doing what it does. Even with an Anti Meta Deck starring Karen....you still would need to guarantee you can do at least one of the following:

1) Go Second: Not only is this out of your control but depending on which Anti Meta you run, you could be eliminating the chance to get your Pokemon evolved to put the "item block" in place. Night March has proven to us time and time again to be almost too effective, especially if that Player chooses to use turn 2 as his/her 1st turn. Yeah, you might kill that Joltik...but doesn't that really just end up hurting you in the grand scheme of things?

2) Rhythmic Karen: Please understand while I say all of this, that I am extremely excited for this card. It is the first (but slightly weak) step of better things to come! Hopefully, Pokemon will do more things like Karen to put an end to all the Marching. HOWEVER, unless you plan on running a deck that is STRICTLY about putting Night March down I hope you come prepared with your luck. Karen is going to have to be like a Guardian Angel as far as draw timing, and in comparing to the other SU cards in your hand that you now won't be able to use that turn (This includes the ole' Seeker trick as well). Sure, it could save your Active... but with this card coming out Night Marcher's aren't going to stand still. Fates Collide just gave us Mew, Glaceon EX, and made N Standard again. Not too mention a few other cards that I personally don't use, but nonetheless might help Night March in some way or another...Bottom line, Good luck Karen. We may have to keep Bunnelby around after all.

To answer your question...Do I think that Karen makes Night March unviable?

No. Absolutely not. But, it has potential to slow us down, and maybe future cards will further that potential.

 

[Otaku]

Let me preface this by stating I really do hope Karen is not as potent as she seems.

A single Supporter Card is not enough to make the most popular//effective META Deck available to date unviable...

Sure it is; it all depends upon what that Supporter does, so a general statement that is clearly false. You may not believe Karen is that Supporter, but that still doesn't make your statement true. It seems a foolhardy claim in a format that contains Battle Compressor and VS Seeker, especially with several competitive decks already using one or the other or even both. Decks with both could easily include a single copy of any deck-killer Supporter so that you could quickly send the Supporter from deck to discard to hand, at which point each VS Seeker can turn itself into that Supporter.

Again, even if you end up being right about Karen, the premise is flawed; a hypothetical future "deck killer" could be released, and it may even already have been released but because it predated the release (or at least discovery) of a deck, that deck never became a thing. Lysandre might be an example: though I think it is ultimately good for the format (I've seen the tyranny of a too secure Bench), imagine what its lack would mean for certain decks!

I'd like to think that they would put an end to Night March eventually (and that is coming from a fellow Night Marcher) but Karen seems to only be a simple beginning. It will take a lot more to completely stop Night March from doing what it does. Even with an Anti Meta Deck starring Karen....you still would need to guarantee you can do at least one of the following:

I want to be clear about how Karen works and make sure you realize why it is such a problem for Night March. I've seen good Night March decks. I've seen bad Night March decks. I've seen good and bad players with either. Even though I often run it myself on the PTCGO, I may even be one of those bad players and/or have a bad build. Some of my opens, I only have to use a couple of my various deck thinning cards; in those cases Karen would be a problem only in that instead of now being able to thin my deck of spare resources (improving future draws) or dig deep for things like another Double Colorless Energy, I'll need hit those same deck thinning cards again so that I can set up again.

Against the average open, Night March loses valuable turns as it tries to restart itself. That means losing Prizes going both ways, as it both fails to take Prizes it needed to take and while giving up Prizes as its small Pokémon are easily OHKO'd. You'll still have some of the setup cards you need available, but one-third to two-thirds have already been used, and if you whiff on them, you whiff on having a decent attack. Night March doesn't mind its glass cannons being OHKO'd because it streams them and takes out targets that are more Prize or resource rich. Whiff on the KO more than once or twice and you probably have no hope of recovering, at least without luck/opponent misplays.

Then there is a "bad opening", though right now as long as you do still get your field set up it would be seen as solid (perhaps even ideal!): you end up using almost all of your deck thinning or hand discarding cards in the first few turns. Right now this is great as you're only left with the stuff you really, really want in your deck. After Karen, once she resets everything, you have to wait for your opponent to KO stuff in order to get it into the discard pile; you most likely cannot spare those Prizes so its game over!

I suspect you referenced an "anti-metagame deck" to give yourself the least favorable odds for this scenario, which I actually applaud. In a discussion like this, that is the correct approach. Except you were mistaken; Karen is expected to be so potent because it needs no such thing! Instead, take any deck and unless it needs to keep certain Pokémon constantly in the discard pile, Karen could work in that deck. What is more, Karen serves a significant role besides countering Night March. If it already was dedicating at least a single slot to Sacred Ash, Karen replaces Sacred Ash. If they have two Super Rod, or Super Rod plus something else to reclaim Energy cards, then Karen replaces a Super Rod.

So take all the current Night March match ups; however you rate them, they are going to be significantly worse in a metagame with Karen in the card pool, because Karen will be played.

1) Go Second: Not only is this out of your control but depending on which Anti Meta you run, you could be eliminating the chance to get your Pokemon evolved to put the "item block" in place. Night March has proven to us time and time again to be almost too effective, especially if that Player chooses to use turn 2 as his/her 1st turn. Yeah, you might kill that Joltik...but doesn't that really just end up hurting you in the grand scheme of things?

It doesn't matter whether you go first or second, unless your opponent is running Night March backed by Vileplume. This is actually part of why I don't expect Vespiquen/Vileplume decks to take a huge hit; they just need a spare attacker to buy time until they can use Professor Sycamore with a hand full of Pokémon to get Vespiquen hitting for at least decent damage again. The big point is that Karen works after the fact; it doesn't need to be used on your first or second turn. In fact it is quite the opposite; you want to use it mid-to-late game!

Whether Night March or its opponent takes an early lead, Karen forces your opponent to struggle to get Night Marchers back into the discard pile, as the Night March deck now lacks all the cards used to aid in that set up the first time. It isn't just whatever is in your discard pile either; you'll most likely have less copies and less room for Shaymin-EX on your Bench. Night March wins on the margins, at least for competitive decks. Your opponent can't keep up in Prizes because you don't just set up and take them fast, you use Basics worth a single Prize that trade well either either Evolutions or Pokémon-EX. Not every deck loses to Night March by a large Prize margin; many are just a Prize or two off from their own victory.

2) Rhythmic Karen: Please understand while I say all of this, that I am extremely excited for this card. It is the first (but slightly weak) step of better things to come! Hopefully, Pokemon will do more things like Karen to put an end to all the Marching. HOWEVER, unless you plan on running a deck that is STRICTLY about putting Night March down I hope you come prepared with your luck. Karen is going to have to be like a Guardian Angel as far as draw timing, and in comparing to the other SU cards in your hand that you now won't be able to use that turn (This includes the ole' Seeker trick as well). Sure, it could save your Active... but with this card coming out Night Marcher's aren't going to stand still. Fates Collide just gave us Mew, Glaceon EX, and made N Standard again. Not too mention a few other cards that I personally don't use, but nonetheless might help Night March in some way or another...Bottom line, Good luck Karen. We may have to keep Bunnelby around after all.

We don't need additional Night March counters. It isn't the deck so many try to make it out to be; most seem to mistake its popularity - partially due to Shaymin-EX (ROS) being the only really expensive card in it - as a sign it is overpowered. Well it is overpowered, but not compared to the rest of the competitive metagame. Frankly it seems like one of the fairer deals; even when it is one-sided, at least it is fast so you can try to actually get best two of three happening.

To counter Night March once Karen is released, you don't need an entire deck dedicated to it. You just need a deck that doesn't clash with Karen itself and a single copy. Yes, with no additional support it requires some good timing. "Good timing" is merely "Any time after Night March has burned through resources to set up." Night March doesn't need to be totally useless to lose its place in competitive play... it just needs something like this that takes its across the board match ups and lowers pretty much all of them.

N makes Karen more dangerous to Night March, not less; they cannot be used in the same turn (barring a deck no one uses) but your opponent can throw the 8+ Night March Pokémon back into your deck, and if you were winning, you must set up the next turn or else expect N to drop you to three, two, or even one card. Next to no hand, no thinned deck, no strong attack. As for getting back things like Battle Compressor to set back up, a turn attacking with Bunnelby is a turn you're not taking a Prize. If you use Puzzle of Time or Bunnelby for such purpose you are not using them for their usual purpose of reclaiming Double Colorless Energy cards. That is a very significant opportunity cost.

Edit: I ended up revising the whole thing. Didn't change the meaning, just cleaned up phrases, typos, etc. Like how some uses of "whiff" somehow ended up saying "wish" instead. XD

 

[Jeffyocalypse]

Everything you said in this is valid. I wanted to break down some parts where I can disprove some of it, but I definitely see your points on most of the scenarios you called out. I just feel that Night March has been made significantly more powerful//easy to use over the past few sets and I don't think that one Supporter Card that allows the opponent to slow down or restart the set up of is is going to make the deck unviable.

Sure it is; it all depends upon what that Supporter does, so a general statement that is clearly false. You may not believe Karen is that Supporter, but that still doesn't make your statement true.

I believe that what you are saying here is completely true. To re-phrase myself and make a more meaningful statement...

I do not believe that Karen will make Night March unviable. As I previously stated I think she is the great first step of better things to come but it single handedly will not put Night March at the bottom of the META list. I plan on later talking about the Mew released with FAC which will further back up my theory in all of this...

So take all the current Night March match ups; however you rate them, they are going to be significantly worse in a metagame with Karen in the card pool, because Karen will be played.

I also agree with this statement, and the very detailed and well worded back up scenarios leading up to it. In the paragraph directly above you reference Karen as being able to replace cards such as Sacred Ash and Super Rod. I do not believe that Karen is going to be a 2-way Supporter. I have seen no art, or card writings to prove such theory. But in this you are referencing Karen to work as a Supporter but like a Stadium in that it will effect both players. Do you have proof of this? Please note that this is me genuinely asking and not trying to say you are wrong...

N makes Karen more dangerous to Night March, not less; they cannot be used in the same turn (barring a deck no one uses) but your opponent can throw the 8+ Night March Pokémon back into your deck, and if you were winning, you must set up the next turn or else expect N to drop you to three, two, or even one card. Next to no hand, no thinned deck, no strong attack. As for getting back things like Battle Compressor to set back up, a turn attacking with Bunnelby is a turn you're not taking a Prize. If you use Puzzle of Time or Bunnelby for such purpose you are not using them for their usual purpose of reclaiming Double Colorless Energy cards. That is a very significant opportunity cost.

I was not implying that N made Karen less dangerous to Night March, but that N does make Night March more dangerous over all which I am almost positive you can agree with. N certainly makes Karen more dangerous to Night March and several other decks for that matter and I can see why you felt the need to say so.

I do however entirely disagree with the statement of Bunnelby and the Puzzle of Time. Yes, in the passed their usual purpose was the reclaim spent DCE's to keep your Night Marcher's attacking....However, if you are to add Mew FAC29 to Night March the DCE's in your deck do not serve as essential as they used to. Mew can use Night March for a single basic energy as long as 1 Joltik is on the bench, and Dimension Valley is in play. Therefore, using Bunnelby to reclaim Battle Compressors after your opponent has used a Karen to lower your damage would be (in my opinion) a more significant use of his attack. I never went down the Puzzle of Time route, but I would want to say the same as far as using them to reclaim Battle Compressors over DCE in a time of need like that..


I think had we had this debate in person we would have reached an agreement pretty quickly. It made me giggle slightly to read certain things because I knew where I had left my own words open enough for you to interpret something different than what I was originally thinking. I guess in the end, we will both just have to wait and see what Karen ends up doing to the Marchers. It's always nice to be critiqued by someone who knows what they are talking about.

 

[Otaku]

@Jeffyocalypse

Always good to have meaningful discussion. I am especially glad that the length (and areas where I didn't mind my attitude) didn't discourage future discussion. I'm going to address some things again, but by this point it is only because I believe them informative for ourselves anyone willing to read them. I mean, even if we are both somehow wrong, a more competent player gets a sampling of the way others are thinking. If you think I am just beating a dead horse at this point, then don't feel the need to answer back (beyond perhaps affirming that further discussion will be fruitless). Not going to quote everything you said, so if I accidentally leave out something important, let me know.

Everything you said in this is valid. I wanted to break down some parts where I can disprove some of it, but I definitely see your points on most of the scenarios you called out. I just feel that Night March has been made significantly more powerful//easy to use over the past few sets and I don't think that one Supporter Card that allows the opponent to slow down or restart the set up of is is going to make the deck unviable.

I do not believe that Karen will make Night March unviable. As I previously stated I think she is the great first step of better things to come but it single handedly will not put Night March at the bottom of the META list. I plan on later talking about the Mew released with FAC which will further back up my theory in all of this...

I believe Night March to be one of the top decks in Standard and Expanded, but I think its actual power level may be exaggerated. People are running this deck. A lot of people are running this deck, as far as I can tell. This seems to have two effects:

1) Everyone is sick of it and so it is much easier to be negative about it.
2) This skews the amount of wins it receives relative to other similarly powerful, but less played decks.

This is my casual analysis (the best term still available to call it) on the matter and it is incredibly important to what I have been saying. If I have this wrong, I've got the rest wrong. If I stated it was totally unviable, I overstated my case; Night March won't disappear overnight, or likely at all. Instead it will be greatly diminished; an obsolete archetype that can still win an event under the correct circumstances, but as an outlier. The deck has been built up over the last few sets... but remember it has waxed and waned; this support has built it up but not to the level where it cannot be torn back down.

I also agree with this statement, and the very detailed and well worded back up scenarios leading up to it. In the paragraph directly above you reference Karen as being able to replace cards such as Sacred Ash and Super Rod. I do not believe that Karen is going to be a 2-way Supporter. I have seen no art, or card writings to prove such theory. But in this you are referencing Karen to work as a Supporter but like a Stadium in that it will effect both players. Do you have proof of this? Please note that this is me genuinely asking and not trying to say you are wrong...

I was using the PokéBeach translation from here. As I am a fraud and never learned Japanese, I can't tell you if the translation is accurate or not. A quick search didn't turn up any alternate translations from a quick search but it could be wrong and I wouldn't know. ^^' I do not know why the art would matter, but so far any talk I've seen on the card has been operating under the impression it affected both players. It would be interesting if the dichotomy in responses is due to one group with a translation stating it only affects the opponent while the other believes it affects both players. If it only affects the opponent, this does make a significant difference and I would expect Night March to take less of a hit as Karen becomes a very specific counter card.

I was not implying that N made Karen less dangerous to Night March, but that N does make Night March more dangerous over all which I am almost positive you can agree with. N certainly makes Karen more dangerous to Night March and several other decks for that matter and I can see why you felt the need to say so.

You should not be so positive.

N is a potent card that few decks should lack, including Night March, but Night March gains far less having it than other decks gain, in particular decks that need some help against Night March. Night March in Expanded has had to focus on grooming hand and deck in preparation for N (or less often other forms of disruption like Delinquent). Check out some of the recent winning Night March deck lists; as recent as the second week of Spring Regionals is available on pokemon.com (you know, the official website). Here specifically is the Ontario Masters Division results; just one copy of N while Professor Sycamore is run with a three count and both Lysandre and Hex Maniac as doubles. Poke around to see other recent, competitive lists. If Night March is working, N is going to quickly shrink your hand. That doesn't mean N is never a life saver, just that the benefit to Night March versus the benefit to everything else is small and perhaps even inverted (the threat to Night March is greater than the benefit).

I do however entirely disagree with the statement of Bunnelby and the Puzzle of Time. Yes, in the passed their usual purpose was the reclaim spent DCE's to keep your Night Marcher's attacking....However, if you are to add Mew FAC29 to Night March the DCE's in your deck do not serve as essential as they used to. Mew can use Night March for a single basic energy as long as 1 Joltik is on the bench, and Dimension Valley is in play. Therefore, using Bunnelby to reclaim Battle Compressors after your opponent has used a Karen to lower your damage would be (in my opinion) a more significant use of his attack. I never went down the Puzzle of Time route, but I would want to say the same as far as using them to reclaim Battle Compressors over DCE in a time of need like that..

I have already been faking Mew (FCO) into account. I have not been able to personally test it yet, but given the similarities between it and Mew-EX, especially in the "Energy efficient Night March attack" department, it seems like a good place to start. Even with Mew-EX in Expanded Night March decks, the deck would still usually be holding onto Puzzle of Time to recycle important resources. Yes, it is more than just Double Colorless Energy, but my main point is that if Karen forces you to start using Puzzle of Time or Bunnelby to focus on deck thinning cards like Battle Compressor, then the already established needs for them cannot simultaneously be met. Plus sometimes I already have had to grab a Battle Compressor. So what I'm saying is your limited capacity to recycle these cards is already being taxed and Karen will increase the burden.

I think had we had this debate in person we would have reached an agreement pretty quickly. It made me giggle slightly to read certain things because I knew where I had left my own words open enough for you to interpret something different than what I was originally thinking. I guess in the end, we will both just have to wait and see what Karen ends up doing to the Marchers. It's always nice to be critiqued by someone who knows what they are talking about.

A good, hearty discussion is indeed quite nice. I forgot to remain skeptical about translations, and there have been enough faulty translations that I ought to never do that. I also am glad you took time think about how your words may have been misunderstood, and took it in good humor. I am glad you were able to make it through my length comments and follow what I was explaining, even if you disagree with them.

 

[Draaka]

I can boil all this massive argument down to one paragraph:

Nightmarch wasn't played seriously when LTC was around because it meant they had to reset every turn. People only ever played 1 LTC. Karen means Nightmarch has to reset every turn like LTC which is a proven NM counter. Except this time NM doesn't get the items and supporters back and probably will have it's bench filled up with it's shaymin. This makes it a more effective counter than LTC as their abilities to reset every turn will be worse and worse as their engine resources will be less every turn. Any decks that use a compressor into supporter of choice engine will be a near auto loss for NM. Any itemlock decks that already counter NM or have a 50/50 matchup will break down NM like never before. NM will likely fall out of play, after a while people will drop Karen, then NM will make a small comeback (assuming it's still in format) and win a regionals or cities then everyone will play Karen again.

Turn 1 Hex Maniac, wait until they have burned quite a lot of resources and have 80-140 damage in the discard pile, then karen, then karen any time they get about 60. Even without itemlock or ability lock they ain't gonna be able to set up.

I personally hope that she comes out very quickly over here, like immediately.