Discussion Is Karen the Death of Night March and Vespiquen?

[Jeffyocalypse]

@Otaku

Before I proceed, I would just like to apologise to you personally for not getting back on here soon enough. I work full time and have not had the time in the passed few days to write out the reply that you deserve. I have appreciated the debate you and I have going very much....Unlike others, I believe that a good hearty debate can point out things that neither listener may have learned otherwise. I would also like to apologise to anyone reading this thread who believes that my new Internet Friend and I here are arguing. I have yet to feel belittled, disrespected, or even made to look like I don't know what I am talking about by Otaku because I believe him and I are on the same page on knowing that we both know what we are talking about, and are simply agreeing to openly disagree. While I know that this is on an open Internet forum and anyone is free to speak their mind like we have...I would appreciate if other people on the thread do not try to make us both seem stupid for wanting to discuss a future card. Yes, more than likely your entire point of commenting on this thread should be to answer the question in the post but that does not mean that you need to troll the other commenters looking for a way to appear smarter than anyone else involved in TCG....


Back to you, Otaku. I will keep this brief because at this point I believe we are both beating the dead horse But as previously stated, I have enjoyed this debate and plan on seeing it through.

Always good to have meaningful discussion. I am especially glad that the length (and areas where I didn't mind my attitude) didn't discourage future discussion.

I did not notice any sort of attitude. I am assuming we just have a similar sense of humour and mannerisms toward interpreting things we read on the internet. I will always be open to future discussion with you bud. I hope this is a mutual understanding.

I was using the PokéBeach translation from here. As I am a fraud and never learned Japanese, I can't tell you if the translation is accurate or not. A quick search didn't turn up any alternate translations from a quick search but it could be wrong and I wouldn't know. ^^' I do not know why the art would matter, but so far any talk I've seen on the card has been operating under the impression it affected both players.

As I am also a fraud, I hope that their translation leads to accuracy for both of our sakes. I learned about Karen not very long ago and have not done enough research to even the see card (Which is why I mentioned the art, I was more foreshadowing the dangerous thought of this card not making it to America as soon as promised) or the text provided. I have heard more about this card than any card in rotation in the passed few weeks and am starting to think that this translation is correct. It would be very one-sided and too counter specific for it to only effect your opponent....

You should not be so positive.

I was particularly tickled by this section. Funny enough, I run the same line up in my NM...only 1 N. IMO, that is all you need. An easy way to mess up your opponents flow while drawing cards. I think N becoming Standard again definitely helped NM. While it may be more useful in bigger numbers with other decks (Which I do not, and did not dispute) that doesn't take away from the help it provides a well built and well played NM Deck which I am positive you can agree with

I have already been faking Mew (FCO) into account. I have not been able to personally test it yet, but given the similarities between it and Mew-EX, especially in the "Energy efficient Night March attack" department, it seems like a good place to start

I know what I am about to say goes without saying, but I can't let it go unsaid because your comparison has one pretty serious flaw. Comparing the attacks of these two Pokemon is indeed a good place to start. Comparing their death tolls however completely changes things. Mew -EX had anyone who was unfortunately forced to make Mew-EX their active very nerve-ridden about the certainty of losing two prize cards.

Yes, it is more than just Double Colorless Energy, but my main point is that if Karenforces you to start using Puzzle of Time or Bunnelby to focus on deck thinning cards like Battle Compressor, then the already established needs for them cannot simultaneously be met. Plus sometimes I already have had to grab a Battle Compressor. So what I'm saying is your limited capacity to recycle these cards is already being taxed and Karen will increase the burden.

This was an easy one. After all, I was only after the admittance that your original statement did imply that Bunnelby/Puzzle's purpose in the deck was to recycle DCE. I most certainly agree that having to retrieve Deck Thinning Items is not going to be a great feeling, and will most certainly slow us down. Karen is going to increase burden in many aspects, but again....my original point was simply stating that she will not make NM unviable.

A good, hearty discussion is indeed quite nice. I forgot to remain skeptical about translations, and there have been enough faulty translations that I ought to never do that. I also am glad you took time think about how your words may have been misunderstood, and took it in good humor. I am glad you were able to make it through my length comments and follow what I was explaining, even if you disagree with them.

I am choosing to close my end of this discussion concerning Karen/Night March with this comment. I believe we are both just 2 Scared Night Marcher's weighing out the Pro's and Con's of Karen's arrival ( Insert Laughter Here) together on the internet. I also applaud you for taking the time to read/respond to my words whether in agreement or not. Let's be honest, if it weren't for humour I am pretty sure the Internet would make people feel a lot more awful and sad than it already does...I look forward to writing another book with you when we both end up spotting another thread that we feel the need to completely over think and discuss. Until next time, Otaku.

 

[Otaku]

@Draaka

I more or less agree with your assessment. I don't remember how competitive Night March was while Lysandre's Trump Card was legal, I just remember the nightmare of facing Seismitoad-EX and Wailord-EX backed decks using it. @_@ I do remember a match versus Night March where I think I opened with like three VS Seeker and one Lysandre's Trump Card against a Night March player who went first. I think he conceded after the third reset. I don't remember what else I was running, if he was technically winning by Prizes at that point, or even what I was running (save it wasn't Seismitoad-EX or Wailord-EX). I don't share your desire for Karen but maybe it is just because I don't play competitively plus I run Night March myself as one of my main decks on the PTCGO (the only place I do play). I figure even if the-powers-that-be don't forget themselves and release whatever it would take to "break" Karen in the general sense, I believe with the current metagame that Night March does it more good than harm, providing a Basic, non-Pokémon-EX attacker that can reach big numbers numbers, but that only easily KOs things that are less than Mega Evolutions.

@Jeffyocalypse

No worries about the time delay; this is thankfully not Twitter or the crazy message boards where you've got to humor a crowd that thinks if you quote a comment from more than a day ago, you're dredging up ancient history. XD Hope it doesn't seem like I'm trying to have the last word because I think we've pretty much worked out our positions now; I get what you're saying and you seem to comprehend my stance as well. Just a few last kinks to iron out.

As I am also a fraud...

"Jeffyocalypse" does not strike me as the English rendering of a Japanese word, let alone a term that specifically is used to denote being an obsessive fan of something, with the definition outside of Japan usually narrowed to represent an obsession with either Japan in general or more specifically animation and comics. Though like me you to may have been telling yourself you were going to get around to learning Japanese for the last 20 years. XD

I know what I am about to say goes without saying, but I can't let it go unsaid because your comparison has one pretty serious flaw. Comparing the attacks of these two Pokemon is indeed a good place to start. Comparing their death tolls however completely changes things. Mew -EX had anyone who was unfortunately forced to make Mew-EX their active very nerve-ridden about the certainty of losing two prize cards.

My opening Mew-EX has survived often enough that I don't consider it being OHKO'd the next turn to be a certainty, though it is quite likely and is still a scary thing. Mew-EX also enjoys advantages that Mew does not, as it is more durable (significantly if you can keep a Fighting Fury Belt attached) but more importantly, can copy any attack off of a Pokémon in play. Still probably worth mentioning, if only to clarify; based on something similar but different, I believed I had sufficient experience to anticipate some plays.

That reminds me, I still need to get some copies of that Mew for the PTCGO. I've been very distracted from the PTCGO lately and as such I have not been keeping track of my cards on it and focusing on trading for what I wanted from the latest set. Really wish the designers could add an "export" feature (like they have for the game log) to the list view of your collection; it is quite time consuming keeping a spreadsheet in order but the difference between that an eyeballing a collection is dramatic!

Otherwise all that is left is me one last time stating that I think Night March will not be a viable competitor for that first bit of time as Karen releases, but that afterwards it will have gone from the top of the competitive ranks to the bottom; still capable, but entirely dependent upon enough opponent's going without Karen or having Karen Prized.

 

[Pinecone]

Without a doubt Karen makes the path for Night March to a top cut, and ultimately to become the tournament champion, more difficult. Facing one deck in top cut that plays Karen could spell the end of the Night Marchers run. A skilled player using Karen will be tough for NM to overcome. Karen in splashable, it could be in any deck, meaning NM will always be looking over its shoulder game 1, and unless they are tipped off, they will need to assume Karen is in their opponent's deck.

NM should still see play, but not as much. Probably just enough to make players glad they run Karen.

 

[21times]

I like this Karen! I'll definitely make her one of my sixty. And I hope she's as good as billed. Night March is contrary to the spirit of the game. Think about it. The whole point of the game is to keep pokemon OUT of your discard pile. Night March is an aberration that needs to be eliminated from the game.

 

[Shiny Shinx]

I think Karen will bring Night March down to the level of an ordinary competitive deck, rather than the clear BDIF, but that still won't help encourage creativity and rogue decks. Manectric/Jolteon remains unaffected, Vespiquen/Vileplume, while somewhat impacted, can still, if it can set up fast enough, prevent you from setting up well enough to get Karen in hand in the first place, and ToadTina/variants, as well as MegaRay are also unaffected. As a result, the pool of top tier decks is not shrinking at all, merely closing in on each other in terms of viability. It's still going to be as difficult as ever to play anything that isn't one of the top handful of archetypes.

~SS

 

[Otaku]

I like this Karen! I'll definitely make her one of my sixty. And I hope she's as good as billed. Night March is contrary to the spirit of the game. Think about it. The whole point of the game is to keep pokemon OUT of your discard pile. Night March is an aberration that needs to be eliminated from the game.

Two of the three Night March Pokémon are Ghost Types in the video games, so actually it seems quite on theme. The point of the game is not to keep Pokémon out of the discard pile, but to play another person in a game, have some fun, and for one of you to win. So I'm much more annoyed by the decks that create a lopsided game state with minimal effort/setup time, essentially turning it into a form of solitaire play as one player either passes and does nothing, or finds that regardless of whatever he or she does it amounts to nothing. Now if you think Night March is one of those kinds of decks then... okay.

 

[Fayld]

Resurrecting an old thread because the card is out now and I think it can be answered

Personally, I almost always tech a Karen into my decks because I have found multiple uses for her. She is the ultimate "get all my pokemon back" card and I find myself frequently using this card more than I used something like Brock's Grit. She isn't a good inclusion for all decks, but for my primary options, she has been a huge help by allowing me to burn pokemon earlier with less worry about whether losing the card will negatively affect me later on. Add in that the card is definitely a huge counter against Vespiquen / Night March / Flareon type decks and the card plays pretty huge for me. Finally, there are a lot of times that you can plug your opponent's deck back up with pokemon and this can negatively impact what they draw. There are a lot of times this has forced my opponent into using a Sycamore when a Lysandre is the far more beneficial play.

Regarding the original question, no this card is absolutely NOT the death of any of these decks. In my experience, Karen *can* be the death of someone playing these decks if used appropriately. More frequently though, I think that Karen turns a match up from very unfavorable to 50/50. It forces the discard player to play more slowly and makes the prize exchange far closer than it would have been without the card. In my opinion, that is EXACTLY what a perfect counter card needs to be. It doesn't kill the deck it is meant to counter. It just takes that deck from an auto win to 50/50. That's really all you can ask out of the card.

The fact that I have found other uses for it and love this card makes it very close to must run in almost all of my expanded decks and a card I look closely at for my standard decks.

Sending out the question. Anyone else using Karen? Any other experiences?

 

[PMJ]

Karen didn't kill those decks because nobody used it. I'm surprised Ray hasn't used Karen to help set itself back up again after a city. Gardevoir could make great use of it as well.

 

[Fayld]

Karen didn't kill those decks because nobody used it. I'm surprised Ray hasn't used Karen to help set itself back up again after a city. Gardevoir could make great use of it as well.

Yeah, I have read that is the case as well. Maybe that is why so many of the discard crew decks don't do very well against me when I use it. Lack of experience / knowledge of a card can be a real detriment LOL!

That is a really interesting point about Mega Ray. You would think that would be a thing. Same with Rainbow Road. I am guessing Gardevoir isn't using it because of the resources to get the pokemon back out of the deck are too high? Maybe? Dunno.

Honestly, I think the card is a bit overlooked and I find it useful quite frequently.