Is POP trying to kill competitive play?

Do you agree with this rant?

  • Total voters
    50
miniman said:
Sabledonk is a pain in the but and so is getting donked in swiss, but donks are a part of the game.

I would enjoy a mid-season rotation (possible RR on and then HGSS on after worlds), POP needs to slow down the format, I remember back a few years ago when decks hardly set-up T1 and games were longer than a couple of turns.

Also a BW rotation would be amazinng. Not only would it change the metagame completely, but it would also put a challange on players to create new decks from only 1 set.
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I remember a few years ago when EVERYONE played pl0x/GG. That was fun...
 
@Miniman: I wouldn't like a BW-on rotation, mainly because I'd have to get rid of all of my MD-on cards that I've worked so hard on getting. Also, with only one set there are only so many options for decks, and I like to see as much diversity as possible in my meta. If there's one really good deck in B/W, then anybody who doesn't play it will probably lose, and the game won't be (as) fun any more.

I think RR-on is ideal for me, I wouldn't have to get rid of too many cards, and there would still be nine sets to work with. I could maybe learn to cope with HGSS-on eventually. Maybe.
 
POP has NEVER been doing a good job, but the last few years have been a disaster on wheels. Heck, since I got back into the game the set rotations have been almost random (3, 1, and 4 sets respectively) and since Platinum came out we've more or less been playing the same format for three years. Claydol was an influence, but the SP engine, be it running Toxitank, Blazeray, or finally Luxchomp and Dialgachomp, is really what's been defining things.

Anyway, see my thread on rules consistency - POP has been mucking things up in quite a few different ways, and yes, it is tiresome. The lack of a finished rulebook is a HUGE issue, and where I am it lets a lot of judges get away with things they really shouldn't be. I'm at the point where I'm just playing casually, running and encouraging alternate formats (double battle, going back to HF or PK as an Extended-like format, Golden Age Base-Rocket, etc) at leagues and just getting people thinking. Yeah, Unlimited sucks, but we don't HAVE to go all the way back and combine base set with EX block. That's boring and is nothing but donks; but there's more potential to this game than what POP is mandating right now.

On the topic of bans: yes, there have been cards that any other TCG maintenance team would have banned from competitive play, but I don't think Vileplume or Machamp are among them. They're just examples of the nature of this game. Really, there are two, possibly three obvious, overcentralizing cards from the last metagame, one of them still being played now. Those cards are Claydol from Great Encounters (we all know it), and Cyrus' Conspiracy. I think had these two gone the way of of the dodo last season, instead of a 3 or 4 deck meta we would've seen a MUCH more open field. Honestly, without those cards, DP-on was a really cool format.

That said, as I have been told repeatedly by P!P, they don't do any development in north america anymore. Guess what this means? NO BANS. EVER. Doesn't matter what garbage gets released, we're stuck with it, even if it's on the level of Slowking again. Anybody else miss the DCI?
 
Some of this reminds me of something that happened when I was playing a friend who I played against. During the setup I said "don't bother with the coin flip, I have Sableye active". After a quick read through of the card (was fairly new to the game), he flipped his active over, a Spiritomb.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you're really worried about Sabledonk, or any donk deck, just run 4 Spiritombs. If you run 4 and your opponent runs 4 Sableyes, the probability that he'll start with Sableye and you won't have a Spiritomb is a bit less then 1/4 (aproximately 23.99%)

Also GHJamesGH, do you have any proof that there'll be a rotation? Just it won't be the 1st time I heard that there WILL be a mid-season rotation on this site.
 
There's no expected mid-season rotation; If there IS a mid-season rotation it will be PT-on, taking the three major trainer-heavy donk decks (Uxie Donk, Gyarados, Machamp) out of the format with the new rules. That said ideally they would introduce the new rules with the rotation...but that would be if they DIDN'T want to kill competitive play. :p
 
Those cards are Claydol from Great Encounters (we all know it), and Cyrus' Conspiracy.
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Claydol gets killed by Garchomp and Cyrus' is just a weaker version of Castaway.

Problem?

...oh yes, and there will be a rotation. That DP-on thing for 2 years was just a one-off. There is no way SPs are staying in the format for ANOTHER year. Holon Engine stuck around for 2 years and it was phenomenal, and SP's time has come.
 
Okay people here is my 2 cents xP
About the grinder thing, well since i have been to a grinder i can say this does make sense. I hated how long the grinder was 8 freakin rounds i was a very long day. During some of the matches i was wishing that i was out with my friends who made it into worlds that year by going to the beach and stuff and to tell you the truth if you lost 2 rounds you would of not have made it anyways so this saves time for every one. The players and staff. Now about rotation i hope its hgss on that would be good slow enough so set up decks can win. And i do not think there will be a mid season rotation. Because P!P sticks with rhythm if they have not done it before they will not do it. So no there will be no mid season rotation.
 
Is this a sableye thread or a grinders thread? I dont think there will be a mid-season rule change or rotation. I think the new online program has the new rules to get people ready for it after worlds. Prolly to make things smoother and easier when the time does come. A rule change that big will make tourneys a headache for organizers if done mid-season. As for grinders, I think elimination is perfect. I went last time it was in San Diego and it lasted till midnight. i know people are complaining about taking a trip all the way to SD just to get donked round 1, but those people prolly never been to worlds. There is plenty to do if your not playing grinders. FREE Tounaments and league play where you can get really nice swag.
 
DNA: you're not considering the format, and "claydol is easily killed by garchomp"...have you noticed that snipe is not the core of the Pokemon TCG? It did BECOME the core of the game during that format, but requiring decks to run snipe to counter one card that provides insane acceleration is unbalanced. If you took the names away and presented the whole game and format as a theoretical situation to game design professionals, I can almost guarantee you'd get a majority vote to remove Claydol and Cyrus' Conspiracy from the format.

As for Castaway, in SP decks Cyrus is a better Castaway as it can get the two best trainer cards in the format: poke turn and power spray, which Castaway couldn't. You also have to consider Castaway against the format it was played: an INSANELY fast stage 2 donk metagame for most of EX block.
 
As usual, people miss the true point of my post. The point is that neither of those cards are as broken as you think they are.
 
So these rules are official? Confirmed? Because if they are, I might be out. I've never liked the people at the pokemon company, especially in the TCG department, but this is WAAAAAAAY over the top. Way to go, Pokemon. Right after that "Your Time To Shine" article, too. It's depressing. The TCG is one of my favorite hobbies.
 
Thought I'd share this important article to you all...

eriknance of PokeGym said:
Note: Many threads lately have featured spirited discussions about the current state of the format. While I know that many people have differing opinions on that issue - as well as decisions that Play! Pokemon (P!P) makes concerning said format - I'm asking that posters please try to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Just think twice before posting something like "If you don't like the game, just stop playing" or "SP sucks, this game sucks, everything sucks, blah blah blah." Like I said, if we can keep the discussion civil, purposeful, and hopefully not pessimistic, that would be awesome. Thanks!

Can P!P Dodge a Bullet?

I can assume that as long as new sets for the Pokemon TCG have been in production, it's always been a challenge for those who control Pokemon's competitive (tournament) scene to accomodate the delay in set releases that exists between Japan and the rest of the world. Cards get shuffled around (examples: Majestic Dawn, Triumphant), formats get bruised every now and then, and the whole ordeal probably requires much planning to strike a fine balance between proper business decisions and the health of the game itself. Lately, however, I've been wondering to myself just how P!P is planning on tackling the release of Black & White in the world outside of Japan.

For those who are unaware that there are some issues with the release of Black & White for our modified format (currently MD-on), let me go over those issues:

The release of Black & White in Japan prompted a change in the gameplay rules. While the new rules in Japan's format work quite well, those same rules - when applied to our own modified format - may present many unique challenges to organized play that will result in a terribly unhealthy format. With one of the new rules being that players can use trainers, supporters, and stadiums on the first turn, many have mentioned Sableye SF and Uxie LA as being able to easily achieve wins on the first turn without the opponent ever getting a turn. The presence of Seeker in the format also allows these cards/decks to win even if the opponent has a Pokemon on the bench. Even Gastly, which would normally prevent the opponent from playing trainers, falls hard to an opponent going first. Before the player can say "Pitch Dark," they've lost to a Pokemon Collector for an Unown Q, Unown D, and Sableye. And of course, all players unfamiliar with Sableye should look it up and read its unbelievable Poke-Body in such a format with such rules!

Some of the cards in Black & White are simply not meant for an MD-on format. Even if we don't shift to the new Black & White rules, I'm sure there are many combos out there that threaten an already troubled format, one of the most obvious is that of Pokemon Catcher and Max Potion with Gyarados. Pokemon Catcher, a reprint of Base Set's Gust of Wind, gives even more power to a 130/150 HP Pokemon that can already hit for up to 110 damage for no energy. Max Potion, which removes all damage from a Pokemon after discarding all of that Pokemon's energy, is also a possibility with Gyarados. Though many people will talk about how VileGar is capable of taking on Gyarados, there's always the threat that the entire format will start revolving around two or three decks. Or, since Sableye commonly finds its place in Gyarados builds, perhaps the deck is only a couple of Special Darks away from being the uncontested "best deck in format" (this I mention with the idea that we end up adopting the Black & White rules). No matter what, there's a huge level of uncertainty about what the Black & White cards will do to an MD-on format; I can definitely say, however, that people aren't looking to slow down their strategies with the new Black & White cards.

If Black & White gets released without any sort of rotation from the world outside of Japan, it will only further the rift that has suddenly grown concerning the different ways in which the world plays the Pokemon TCG competitively. The decision by P!P to open up the card pool was, in my opinion, a welcome one. Leaving the format at DP-on one season and MD-on the next seems to me an active decision to somehow parallel Japan's format. In the past, there have been times when Japan was playing with more sets than we were. As a result, the way we played the Pokemon TCG felt "watered down," leaving many strong combos (like Gardevoir/Gallade) to go on unchallenged during a season. Unfortunately, a larger card pool right now does very little to advance the game. Many of the most recent sets have been entirely disregarded save a handful of cards because of the unbearable strength of sets prior to HGSS. It seems clear to me that HGSS-on sets were produced in an attempt to drastically slow the game down and return eventually to an era of setup decks again (yes, many speed decks are currently performing well in Japan; I feel this will change with the next couple of B&W sets, just like the Diamond & Pearl release saw a momentary rise in speed decks before Secret Wonders/Great Encounters was released). This slowing of the format won't be felt by anyone but Japan unless we have some sort of large rotation. Consequently, B&W sets will probably continue to give us very little to work with unless sets prior to HGSS are rotated away.

With the release of Black & White, Japan has changed the way that Rare Candy works. With another indication that they want the game slowed down, Rare Candy can only be used when a player's Pokemon has been in play for at least one turn. For our modified format, this change is momentous, providing many players with yet another reason to never use anything above a Basic Pokemon in competitive play. Broken Time-Space will be the only viable alternative, meaning that Dialga G, a card released in early 2009, would gain even more power.

The Health of the Format

In the midst of all this talk about the future of our game, we should remember a few things. First of all, the Pokemon TCG is healthiest when it lines up with the way Japan plays the game. This is for fairly obvious reasons, as they can see the effect each set has on the game and make counters when needed to "overpowered" combos. When we deviate from that model, things get messy. Many people have commented before on this phenomenon, and I don't think it's something to be overlooked. Simply put, we should desire a format that parallels that of Japan. It keeps unintended combos from dominating a format and promotes a healthy format overall.

One of the most surprising things I as a player have seen is the relative uselessness of recent sets. I have been completely discouraged from attending Pre-Releases as of late simply because the sets don't offer anything new and refreshing to the format. As I mentioned before, a very small handful of cards from HGSS-on sets have seen competitive play; otherwise, most people stick to SP's and SF's (Gyarados, Gengar, Machamp). To me, a healthy format is something in which multiple strategies can be implemented to be successful at the game, not just the mechanics of those same 3-5 Pokemon from almost 10 sets ago. Japan has realized this and made their necessary move by going HGSS-on. In hindsight, it actually makes a lot of sense, as it's something they've been preparing for (with their HGSS sets) for quite some time.

"Hey, Where'd My Binder Go?"

The last thing I want to say is this. Nobody who plays this game likes looking at an entire binder's worth of cards and labeling them as "unplayable" because of a card rotation. Trust me, I know. I've been playing this game for over five years, so I know the pain a rotation causes. With the way our format has gone recently, and with the multiple challenges that the release of Black & White presents, it's no surprise that we're due for a card rotation. Whether P!P will enact this rotation during our season or not remains to be seen (though I for one would appreciate an early indication about where our game is going). However, there's a lot to be happy about with a rotation. I for one look forward to going through my HGSS sets and seeing combos that I previously shrugged off in the face of a speed-infested format. I look forward to going once more to a Pre-Release and marvelling at cards that have the potential to change the format (and no, not just a single card in an entire set like Lost World). I look forward to having an opponent ask me which way he or she flips their active Pokemon when they're asleep rather than just frown and dump their benched Wartortle into the discard when I attach another Double Colorless Energy to my Garchomp C X. I also look forward to playing the game as Japan - the very creators of the Pokemon TCG - plays it. I don't want to move further and further away from their meticulously crafted format. And finally, I look forward to the multiple strategies, combos, and ideas that have been mysteriously absent from this game for so long. It used to be that each new set offered a whole list of new ideas. As it is right now, each set offers us maybe a new deck, maybe (HGSS=Jumpluff, Undaunted=VileGar, Call of Legends=LostGar).

After States...

In my opinion, this looks to be one of the most challenging years in recent history for P!P. They have many careful things to consider while still preserving the health of the format. Japan went through a massive card rotation recently for a reason - something P!P has to look at seriously if they want to help direct the Pokemon TCG once again to a healthy level. Among other things, they also have to look at the business of things. Though the game is currently growing, one must wonder how much the release of one "boring" set after the other is hampering the development of the competitive scene. What incentive do players have to go to a Pre-Release like the one for Call of Legends, which featured no new Primes or Legend Pokemon and was capable of only coughing up a single card - Lost World - to actually change the format in a significant way? How will newcomers look at the release of B&W-on sets when SP decks continue to win tournaments? These are some of the questions I'm sure P!P is asking themselves. I for one look forward to how they respond.
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Wait you guys I thought that the rule was still you can't play trainers till second turn, and if I am wrong where did they anounce the rule change?
 
It's currently only for Japan's format with the release of Black & White Base Set, we have a suspicion that it could be the same for our format which would lead to more problems If Play! Pokemon and TPCi implements ALL these rules on our shores. Time will tell, I thought that article I found on PokeGym would help everyone be aware of the current situation and what needs to be done to ensure this TCG stays healthy. Hopefully guys like JWittz and others can help get the word across maybe as well.

I think that the Tournament Rules should still stay Swiss Top Cut as it has been with no Single Elimination, with a Massive Mid-Season Rotation when Black & White Base Set is released outside of Japan while getting rid of the power creep that we've been dealing with from Diamond/Pearl and Platinum. SP's, Machamp, Sableye, and Gyarados from DP Stormfront need to go badly. It's better than waiting til August after Worlds for Rotations and it gets rid of the TCG's current problems that's already stagnating the metagame.
 
^You do realize that Japan is on a HS-on format, and they adjusted rare candy and pluspower? They will not do anything like that with SF cards still in the format.
 
@The Wii Man1234 What did they do to Rare Candy? I've not heard about that.
 
@Shaymin Lv.X Ok, thanks! Let's hope they don't do that worldwide, but it's probably coming...
 
Shaymin Lv.X said:
P0KEVORTEX said:
@The Wii Man1234 What did they do to Rare Candy? I've not heard about that.
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You can't play Rare Candy T1, and you can't play it to evolve a basic to stage 1
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Ya that is pretty right, but I would like to clarify 1 thing, you can't play rare candy to evolve a pokemon the turn you play the pokemon down (like pokemon breader) so that implies that you can't play it T1.

Oh, and just FYI you guys France is going to get B/W rules when the set comes out in the US.
 
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