Discussion Is Rayquaza GX Good after Rotation?

True... Nice comparison!

But 1 Vikavolt is enough in my opinion for the first turns, so I don't really see the 'slower' point, another Vikavolt might come later as 1 prize attacker / just in case your stage 2 get's Guzma's en KO, but is absolutely not necessary to get 2 Vikavolt for OHKO's starting turn 3 already.

And I don't really see why Dashing Pouch is great, Vikavolt can attack next turn by just using manual attachment and ability, doesn't have to get out of the active spot. Dashing Pouch works nicely with the ability of Magnezone, but doesn't really in case of Vikavolt. And if I'm using Choice Band for a OHKO, I can't use Dashing Pouch.

And I guess Magnezone could use more energy indeed. Fun fact is that I'm running 7 grass and 7 lightning and 2 energy recycler though. And I don't think you have to run your support line (Vikavolt) in larger numbers, it's just that I want to to get the consistency I want (turn 2 Vikavolt). I'm playing Volkner's as well.

Fairy tech will be Dedenne I guess, which I consider to run myself. For 2 colorless energy and Choice Band that's a OHKO on Rayquaza with weakness if you have a lightning Pokemon on the bench, which we both could play I guess. So you could consider that too.

To conclude, guess we're both pretty sure our own variant is better ;) But I'll test yours... And I really hope you will test mine as well!

You mentioned Energy Recycler and I remembered:
Energy Recycle System was printed too and relatively overlooked.
Effects is like Rescue Stretcher but for basic Energy.
Pretty good in Bulu (which needs a guaranteed Grass manual attachment per turn), but maybe good for Ray??
What do you think?
 
I don't mean to interject on the conversation here, but I would like to bring up Zeraora GX and Shuckle as a topic for discussion. Do either of you, MrMimik & lukas2aces that is, believe that Zeraora GX & Shuckle are the better partners and you guys are simply trying to find a way to play Rayquaza GX prior to those cards releasing by using Vikavolt and Magnezone, or do you guys believe that Vika/Zone are the better Ray partners regardless?

I've watched some Japanese players play Rayquaza GX/Zeraora GX and based my deck lists around theirs, and after playtesting the build myself, I can safely say that it's a fantastic way to the run the deck. I just recently had a game where I was looking at 3 Rayquaza GX with 3 energy a piece and a total of 11 energy on the field, and two of the Rayquaza GX were sitting on Wishful Batons. I believe this was by turn 4, and then I proceeded to steamroll.

I don't like being that guy who says people should play a deck a certain way, but I was just curious as to what your guys' opinion on Zeraora GX is. I haven't playtested Vikavolt or Magnezone myself, but I'm really digging Zeraora and Shuckle.
 
I agree with Duo. In my opinion, straight Rayquaza with Zeraora, Shuckle and Latias <> is the best variant. I also figured out that it is not a bad idea using Ultra Beasts and Beast Ring (mainly before Zeraora and Shuckle are released). You have many different options, Like playing Xurkitree GX as a wall, using Pheromosa for knocking out Lycanroc GX or as a game finisher. I wasn't able to do playtesting, but I'll do that soon (also gonna test Vika and Zone).
 
The thing I really like about Rayquaza GX is that there are many ways to play it. I'm excited to see which variant will prove it's the best.
 
I don't mean to interject on the conversation here, but I would like to bring up Zeraora GX and Shuckle as a topic for discussion. Do either of you, MrMimik & lukas2aces that is, believe that Zeraora GX & Shuckle are the better partners and you guys are simply trying to find a way to play Rayquaza GX prior to those cards releasing by using Vikavolt and Magnezone, or do you guys believe that Vika/Zone are the better Ray partners regardless?

I've watched some Japanese players play Rayquaza GX/Zeraora GX and based my deck lists around theirs, and after playtesting the build myself, I can safely say that it's a fantastic way to the run the deck. I just recently had a game where I was looking at 3 Rayquaza GX with 3 energy a piece and a total of 11 energy on the field, and two of the Rayquaza GX were sitting on Wishful Batons. I believe this was by turn 4, and then I proceeded to steamroll.

I don't like being that guy who says people should play a deck a certain way, but I was just curious as to what your guys' opinion on Zeraora GX is. I haven't playtested Vikavolt or Magnezone myself, but I'm really digging Zeraora and Shuckle.

I agree with Duo. In my opinion, straight Rayquaza with Zeraora, Shuckle and Latias <> is the best variant. I also figured out that it is not a bad idea using Ultra Beasts and Beast Ring (mainly before Zeraora and Shuckle are released). You have many different options, Like playing Xurkitree GX as a wall, using Pheromosa for knocking out Lycanroc GX or as a game finisher. I wasn't able to do playtesting, but I'll do that soon (also gonna test Vika and Zone).

Naturally.
 
I agree with Duo. In my opinion, straight Rayquaza with Zeraora, Shuckle and Latias <> is the best variant. I also figured out that it is not a bad idea using Ultra Beasts and Beast Ring (mainly before Zeraora and Shuckle are released). You have many different options, Like playing Xurkitree GX as a wall, using Pheromosa for knocking out Lycanroc GX or as a game finisher. I wasn't able to do playtesting, but I'll do that soon (also gonna test Vika and Zone).

Pheromosa is definitely my favorite tech card for this deck. It allows you to go for 1 prize Pokemon like Malamar, Alolan Vulpix, Magcargo, Prism Star Pokemon, etc, and then with 1 prize remaining you can kick a solid 180 damage to OHKO a mirror match Rayquaza GX, or Choice Banded for 210.

That being said you basically won't need it unless people play Hoopa/Alolan Ninetales non-GX.

At the same time, I have seen a build that uses 2 Shuckle and 2 Pheromosa while running 2 Beast Ring. This way Shuckle gives you early game acceleraction and Pheromosa gives you mid game acceleration without needing to use your attack for turn on Latias and you can still stick 2 energy onto a Pheromosa. I might adopt this strategy in my own build as well, to be honest.

It just seems unnecessary is all. Today during my playtesting, I had 3 games in a row where on Turn 2 I used Zeraora's GX attack and finished Turn 2 with 3 Rayquaza GX, all 3 of them with 3 energy a piece, at least one of them had a wishful baton, and a total of 10 or 11 energy on the field. That's 300+ damage and way over-speced to even handle something like Solgaleo GX when that comes out and potentially becomes relevant.

Rayquaza GX is a joy to play because order of play is incredibly important, as well as card counting your own deck so you can make educated mills. Cards like Rescue Stretcher and Pal Pad actually become search cards (Rescue Stretcher more so than Pal Pad) when you can make an educated guess to mill a Shuckle into your discard pile and then Rescue Stretcher it out. This deck is digustingly fluid and feels like absolute magic when you get it all to work.

I've been playtesting this against Nagandel/Stakataka GX, and I can fairly confidently say that Ray GX is going to be the reason why that deck goes extinct. A 2 hit KO hard capped deck just can't beat 2-3 fully charged Rayquaza GX. As soon as I figured out good card orders for Ray GX, I've been going 2-0, 2-0, 2-0 against Naganadel/Stakataka GX. It can't keep up, nor can it defend.

Sylveon GX is going to be crucial to beating this deck, because the main power of Ray GX comes from the fact that it can get 2-3 attackers set up by turn 2-3, and all of them hit for 210+ easily. Even if you KO one, you're going to get immediately KO'd by another Ray GX next turn anyway. Sylveon GX is crucial due to Plea GX eliminating the number of set up Ray GX. If you send away 2 Ray GX after it sets up, you send away 6 energy (180 damage) and force Ray GX to make a decision - mill with Ray GX again to try and accelerate, risking the loss of more crucial resources and potentially decking out, or take it slow and find a way to get back in the game with Shuckle and Latias Prism.
 
Sylveon won't be able to have two energy attachments every turn (Fairy and DCE), so I guess they can't win the prize trade. Sure they get a OHKO, but only after two energy attachments. If they Plea GX they are not taking a KO, meaning you'll get the chance to maybe get a OHKO for the first prizes, and even if you don't, you're still faster I guess.

I just don't like the fact that you need attacks to get the energies done (Latias Prism, Zeraora's GX attack), that's why I chose Vikavolt, but I guess Zeraora / Shuckle will work indeed and might be better / faster. But I do like to get a good turn 1 and use Rayquaza's GX attack T1 as well to start T2 with 10 cards (except for Judge from opponent or something). I'll have to test then in that Standard format.

For now, I'm focused on my next big tournaments (which would be Frankfurt Regionals last weekend September and SPE Lille early November). There I might decide to pick Rayquaza / Vikavolt.

The next four months we'll have to see how the meta will change. Relevant for me will be how good Buzzwole (normal and GX) will or won't be in like 4 months, given the weakness of Zeraora / low HP Pokemon on the bench (Shuckle getting 2HKO Jet punched on the bench while maybe getting serious damage / OHKO on Zeraora GX in active).
 
Pheromosa is definitely my favorite tech card for this deck. It allows you to go for 1 prize Pokemon like Malamar, Alolan Vulpix, Magcargo, Prism Star Pokemon, etc, and then with 1 prize remaining you can kick a solid 180 damage to OHKO a mirror match Rayquaza GX, or Choice Banded for 210.

That being said you basically won't need it unless people play Hoopa/Alolan Ninetales non-GX.

At the same time, I have seen a build that uses 2 Shuckle and 2 Pheromosa while running 2 Beast Ring. This way Shuckle gives you early game acceleraction and Pheromosa gives you mid game acceleration without needing to use your attack for turn on Latias and you can still stick 2 energy onto a Pheromosa. I might adopt this strategy in my own build as well, to be honest.

It just seems unnecessary is all. Today during my playtesting, I had 3 games in a row where on Turn 2 I used Zeraora's GX attack and finished Turn 2 with 3 Rayquaza GX, all 3 of them with 3 energy a piece, at least one of them had a wishful baton, and a total of 10 or 11 energy on the field. That's 300+ damage and way over-speced to even handle something like Solgaleo GX when that comes out and potentially becomes relevant.

Rayquaza GX is a joy to play because order of play is incredibly important, as well as card counting your own deck so you can make educated mills. Cards like Rescue Stretcher and Pal Pad actually become search cards (Rescue Stretcher more so than Pal Pad) when you can make an educated guess to mill a Shuckle into your discard pile and then Rescue Stretcher it out. This deck is digustingly fluid and feels like absolute magic when you get it all to work.

I've been playtesting this against Nagandel/Stakataka GX, and I can fairly confidently say that Ray GX is going to be the reason why that deck goes extinct. A 2 hit KO hard capped deck just can't beat 2-3 fully charged Rayquaza GX. As soon as I figured out good card orders for Ray GX, I've been going 2-0, 2-0, 2-0 against Naganadel/Stakataka GX. It can't keep up, nor can it defend.

Sylveon GX is going to be crucial to beating this deck, because the main power of Ray GX comes from the fact that it can get 2-3 attackers set up by turn 2-3, and all of them hit for 210+ easily. Even if you KO one, you're going to get immediately KO'd by another Ray GX next turn anyway. Sylveon GX is crucial due to Plea GX eliminating the number of set up Ray GX. If you send away 2 Ray GX after it sets up, you send away 6 energy (180 damage) and force Ray GX to make a decision - mill with Ray GX again to try and accelerate, risking the loss of more crucial resources and potentially decking out, or take it slow and find a way to get back in the game with Shuckle and Latias Prism.

Join the dark side Luke :). Rayquaza will still be relevant in the SM-on format if not better than in the current standard format. While most decks need to take care not to overextent this deck does the exact opposite. Not sure that Sylveon GX is the most ideal and versatile direct counter to this deck. I much prefer Mighty Mouse from Forbidden Light since it can be teched into any deck that runs Double Colorless Energy and Tapu Koko.

I would not underestimate Malamar decks at all. With the release of Tapu Lele non-Gx the deck will have a lot of tricks at its disposal. You just need to find the ideal balance between Pokémon GX and Pokémon non-GX in this deck. I also would not count out Garbodor at all. The new SM-on format favours him a lot.
 
Sylveon won't be able to have two energy attachments every turn (Fairy and DCE), so I guess they can't win the prize trade. Sure they get a OHKO, but only after two energy attachments. If they Plea GX they are not taking a KO, meaning you'll get the chance to maybe get a OHKO for the first prizes, and even if you don't, you're still faster I guess.

I just don't like the fact that you need attacks to get the energies done (Latias Prism, Zeraora's GX attack), that's why I chose Vikavolt, but I guess Zeraora / Shuckle will work indeed and might be better / faster. But I do like to get a good turn 1 and use Rayquaza's GX attack T1 as well to start T2 with 10 cards (except for Judge from opponent or something). I'll have to test then in that Standard format.

For now, I'm focused on my next big tournaments (which would be Frankfurt Regionals last weekend September and SPE Lille early November). There I might decide to pick Rayquaza / Vikavolt.

The next four months we'll have to see how the meta will change. Relevant for me will be how good Buzzwole (normal and GX) will or won't be in like 4 months, given the weakness of Zeraora / low HP Pokemon on the bench (Shuckle getting 2HKO Jet punched on the bench while maybe getting serious damage / OHKO on Zeraora GX in active).

Join the dark side Luke :). Rayquaza will still be relevant in the SM-on format if not better than in the current standard format. While most decks need to take care not to overextent this deck does the exact opposite. Not sure that Sylveon GX is the most ideal and versatile direct counter to this deck. I much prefer Mighty Mouse from Forbidden Light since it can be teched into any deck that runs Double Colorless Energy and Tapu Koko.
I would not underestimate Malamar decks at all. With the release of Tapu Lele non-Gx the deck will have a lot of tricks at its disposal. You just need to find the ideal balance between Pokémon GX and Pokémon non-GX in this deck. I also would not count out Garbodor at all. The new SM-on format favours him a lot.

I'm not trying to treat Sylveon GX like it's in a vacuum. Just like how Rayquaza GX leans on Shuckle and Zeraora GX to get the job done, Sylveon GX would similarly need other Pokemon to work with it in order to see success, such as Gardevoir GX for energy acceleration and tech cards for more efficient prize trades.

I'm simply giving an analysis of how Rayquaza GX sets up and one of the best ways to keep it under control. The fact of the matter is by the end of turn 2 or 3, Rayquaza GX will usually have 2 to 3 Ray with 3 energy on them a piece, and 1 energy on the Zeraora GX for a total of 7 to 10 energy on the field. Usually I will have Wishful Baton attached to at least one Rayquaza, so taking a KO doesn't slow down their damage momentum in the slightest unless you Magical Ribboned for a Field Blower in advance. The turn that Rayquaza GX uses Zeraora's GX attack is the turn that you have to respond with Plea GX.

Plea GX removes 2 Rayquaza GX and 6 energy from the field, leaving Rayquaza GX with only 4 energy on the field (120 damage) assuming there were 3, and only 1 energy on the Zeraora GX assuming there were 2, which is not enough to even counter OHKO a Sylveon GX on the following turn, and in the event that Ray only managed to get 2 of them set up, you have completely deleted all OHKO threats from the field as Zeraora GX cannot OHKO Sylveon even with a choice band. Ray GX would need to find a way to get at least 90 more damage on the field, assuming there is even one left, which is 3 more energy, and even if they do, the point is that you would have another Fairy Pokemon set up, such as Gardevoir GX or Dedenne, and since Rayquaza GX depends on Zeraora's GX attack to gain early momentum, you interupt that momentum with Plea GX and force them to recharge energy by attacking with Shuckle or Latias Prism Star, buying you more turns to get your own set up in place.

The point is that you have to control the deck's momentum, and when you're looking at 3 Rayquaza GX fully loaded with 3 energy a piece, taking a single KO with Dedenne or any Pokemon isn't going to do that for you. Sylveon GX is one of the few Pokemon that are capable of resetting or at least slowing down the deck's overall momentum so that when you take a KO you still have time to prepare for the next. I don't really think I'm talking out of my rear end on this one since I'm talking about this from playtesting experience, not just theorycrafting. Sylveon GX forces Rayquaza GX into an awkward situation, and from there you can find your KOs through other methods.

I still have yet to see a Magical Swap Lele actually make a game changing impact yet in any of the decks I've tested. Not in Malamar decks, and not a fairy one played in Gardy either to get it set up with Secret Spring. My issue with Magical Swap Lele strategy is that you are not removing OHKO threats from the field during the time you are setting up the damage on the field. Whether this damage is coming from Koko, Alolan Ninetales GX (Fairy), Black Ray GX, or any other form of spread, you are always going to need at least a minimum of 2 turns in order to take the KOs that you need, and during those 2 turns you are not removing any threats from the field or stopping your opponent from executing their strategy. UNGX could very easily spread 360 damage across the full field with its GX attack vs Ray and then Magical Swap to take 2 Rayquaza GX KOs, which is how the play sort of works in my mind, but considering that the deck runs Shuckle and Ray GX will likely have one in play on a full bench, you will end up KOing the Shuckle for 1 prize, and then your damage total drops to 300, which is no longer enough to take any more than 1 KO.

Alternatively, regular Necrozma GX could still get the job done since the average Rayquaza GX board has 4 GX Pokemon on it at a time (Zeraora, 2 Ray, 1 Lele, or Zeraora and 3 Ray), so you can place 400 damage on GX Pokemon and then spread it around. I'm just not sure how realistic the entire set up is since getting an entire Malamar system in place with Dawn Wings Necrozma GX, either Switch or Altar of the Moone, two Malamars, and the Lele is, in my experience, simply a lot more inconsistent than the way Rayquaza sets up.

I don't want to count out Malamar from the picture, but I definitely am not certain how Malamar can consistently win against Ray with the way the deck inherently sets up and with how many individual pieces it needs to get going, and I would totally be okay with being proven wrong by a deck list and performance that shows it performing as intended.
 
First of all, thanks for your very detailed description of what could happen! It definitely shows that I might have been a little too quick with my conclusion that Rayquaza will win against Sylveon. And a Gardevoir will get a OHKO with 1 fairy energy indeed, and Dedenne could get a OHKO with a Choice Band, which are serious threats. So if it's not just quad Sylveon, you'll have a hard time against it.

Against Sylveon Vikavolt might be the better partner, since you force the Sylveon player to choose with Plea GX between powered up Rayquaza's or Vikavolt('s). And if they don't choose your Vikavolt, you'll be quite fast back up. And assuming they will choose your Vikavolt, they still aren't taking a KO. Guess you definitely will try to get 2 / 3 Grubbin out against Sylveon, especially with Dedenne and Gardevoir it will be a hard match-up and maybe the biggest threat to Rayquaza (which would make sense given that it's hitting for weakness and could disrupt your set-up).

Against Sylveon maybe playing Judge turn 1 and then GX attack of Rayquaza could be quite good?

The advantage of Vikavolt (or Magnezone) is that you're less vulnerable for (early) disruption, since you can accelerate energy during the whole game just with abilities, instead of being quite dependent on a GX attack and/or the ability of Rayquaza, or maybe attacks like Latias Prism where you can't take KO's / do serious damage.

But against other decks I guess Zeraora could be the better partner (basis Pokemon so at least more consistent early game, have to see whether that will be enough for the whole game).
 
First of all, thanks for your very detailed description of what could happen! It definitely shows that I might have been a little too quick with my conclusion that Rayquaza will win against Sylveon. And a Gardevoir will get a OHKO with 1 fairy energy indeed, and Dedenne could get a OHKO with a Choice Band, which are serious threats. So if it's not just quad Sylveon, you'll have a hard time against it.

Against Sylveon Vikavolt might be the better partner, since you force the Sylveon player to choose with Plea GX between powered up Rayquaza's or Vikavolt('s). And if they don't choose your Vikavolt, you'll be quite fast back up. And assuming they will choose your Vikavolt, they still aren't taking a KO. Guess you definitely will try to get 2 / 3 Grubbin out against Sylveon, especially with Dedenne and Gardevoir it will be a hard match-up and maybe the biggest threat to Rayquaza (which would make sense given that it's hitting for weakness and could disrupt your set-up).

Against Sylveon maybe playing Judge turn 1 and then GX attack of Rayquaza could be quite good?

The advantage of Vikavolt (or Magnezone) is that you're less vulnerable for (early) disruption, since you can accelerate energy during the whole game just with abilities, instead of being quite dependent on a GX attack and/or the ability of Rayquaza, or maybe attacks like Latias Prism where you can't take KO's / do serious damage.

But against other decks I guess Zeraora could be the better partner (basis Pokemon so at least more consistent early game, have to see whether that will be enough for the whole game).

I think when it comes to VS. Sylveon GX, the strategy is simply to not preload all of your Rayquaza GX with 3 energy a piece. You would have to spread your energy across the board a little thinner.

For example, in the case that you have 3 Rayquaza GX in play, instead of getting all 3 of them to 3 energy a piece after using Zeraora's GX attack, you can simply keep them at 2 energy a piece, which is only 1 attach for turn away from being able to attack. If you spread your 10 energy across the field as 1/1/2/2/2/2 instead of 1/3/3/3, then in the worst case scenario you are only losing 4 energy to a Plea GX, leaving you with 6 in play, and next turn you attach for turn to get your Rayquazas sitting at 2 energy to 3, ready to attack, and upping your 6 energy count to 7 striking for the perfect 210 damage to OHKO a Sylveon GX and punish their play.

Outside of that, you would need to start getting creative with Latias Prism Star or Shuckle if you can't ensure 3 Rayquaza GX in play (very unlikely...you run 4 Ray, 4 Mysterious Treasure, 4 Ultra Ball and a BUTT ton of draw support).

This is another reason why I say that Sylveon GX needs assistance. There is a way to play around Plea GX, so we need a little more to keep up.
 
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