well we could increase the sample size by however much we want
Discussion Is starting 2nd becoming a big problem? Should it be balanced?
- Thread starter IvanAipom93
- Start date
Aye, but if you want to do this right, you'll need dozens of games per match up. Also, all the players involved will need to be of comparable skill levels. Too few players, and we have to wonder if it is just because Bob has a serious edge over George. Too many, and it can be hard to ensure that Player 13 isn't just significantly less competetent than his peers, if not overall, than with Deck X.
I'm not saying it cannot be done, just that there is a reason it isn't well-tested already.
Not sure why it's so bad to go first, you get to do all of your setup first so I'm still alright the way it is.
We're in fact saying that going 1st is the best possible thing, and it's so much better than go 2nd, that this difference should be balanced.
Oh my bad I misread that haha. But on the contrary going 2nd is also not a bad thing at times especially when someone has done a Lillie or Steven's Resolve first turn. But yeah most of the time I'd go first.
I would seem you have a pretty ready made sample with day two streams over the past few years, if someone wanted to crunch the numbers. However, wouldn’t you expect that the game designers did quite a bit of controlled testing before changing the first turn rule a while back? I agree it feels like the first turn is a huge advantage but it isn’t an auto-win, and even a small change in a game based largely on chance can be a killer, with unintended consequences over millions of games played.
Sometimes PCL* doesn't do what we expect them to have done.
Sometimes PCL makes mistakes.
Sometimes PCL may not have had the time or enough testers to find a satisfactory answer.
Sometimes PCL doesn't catch on how future changes will affect the game until it is too late.
It helps to know the history of the first turn rules. I do not believe the first turn Evolution rules have changed over the years, but remember they apply. Oh, and specific rulings related to those first turn rules have changed (I think Rare Candy had some examples of this), but the core rules for Evolving remained the same.
1999 to 2004(?): No first turn rules.
2004 to 2007: T1, the player does not draw for the turn and cannot play a Supporter.
2007 to 2011: T1, the player cannot play Trainer cards (modern definition) from hand.
2011 to 2013: No first turn rules.
2013 to present: No T1 attacks.
Given this history, including the return to "No first turn rules" requiring an early, emergency set rotation that year, happening a couple months ahead of the usual schedule, I'm pretty sure all of those "sometimes" exceptions I gave apply.
I believe there are two things they strive for with the T1 rules:Keep it super simple.
Make it balanced.
I'm not one of their testers, so maybe they have considered my ideas - or anything else mentioned in this thread - and it didn't test well. Then again, they somehow missed how broken so many cards were in Base Set. Simply put, sometimes players approach the game with an unanticipated mindset. I mean, there are multiple cards in the Base Set that weren't just broken then, but would still be broken now! XD
*Pokémon Card Laboratories - Also called Pokémon Card Game Laboratory. The division that designs the cards and does the R&D for the Pokémon TCG.
Starting first in most decks (standard) gives too heavy an advantage if you use a deck that relies heavily on evolution. (Oh look Roanoke was won by a deck with 4 separate evolution lines) Don't know what to do about it though, maybe stop a number of items from being played on the first player's T1, because no supporters is too brutal, especially for Zoarark GX, and because decks who can't use Elm rely heavily on various poke balls to get off the ground....
I'd say that the player going first can't use more than 2 items turn 1, in order to compensate for the advantage it gives in evolving pokemon.
I'd say that the player going first can't use more than 2 items turn 1, in order to compensate for the advantage it gives in evolving pokemon.
As much as the rule set is broken in standard now, putting a limit on items would break it even more in expanded, where items and item lock are even more powerful.