Japan's March Set: 'Rebellion Crash,' Plus Toxtricity V, Charizard VMAX, Grimmsnarl VMAX!
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Using Oranguru at the end of your turn is what most people do already, so I don't see why it's an issue.
I think it only works when you draw a card to start the turn not when your able to do anything
What an original name Nugget has
My Gosh....wth is that background on Sigilyph? So bad...
Just because there are a few posts that seem confused, let us run through how I believe Nugget works, based on the current translation:
For reference sake, the translation for Nugget as of this post:
Let's cover how Nugget most likely works:
The second (or third or fourth) copy of Nugget was not drawn as part of your draw for the turn, but as part of the effect of that first copy of Nugget, so the other copies will not trigger. Pokémon lacks a "Draw Phase" the way games like Magic: The Gathering, Yu-Gi-Oh, and many others have; while you have to draw a card at the start of your turn* it is a mandatory action. I know of no effects that increase how many cards you draw as part of your manual draw for the turn.
Combos for Nugget:
Anything that lets you control the top card of your deck. Such combos only work if neither you nor your opponent do anything that would force you to draw from the top of your deck, shuffle your deck, or add another card onto the top of your deck. Here are some cards that can be used to put a Nugget on top of your deck:
Remember not to use any effects that force you to mess with your own deck afterward, unless they're worth abandoning the Oranguru/Nugget combo!
Common Counters for Nugget:
Reasons to not run Nugget:
*If you can't draw because of no cards left, you lose. There may also be some card effects that prevent you drawing at the start of your turn.
**The wording from the translation actually makes it sound like you have to use Nugget if you draw it, but there's no way to regularly enforce such a thing, so I assume it will be optional.
***Once Nugget is added to your hand, even if you just drew it, you usually can't prove it, so don't do this unintentionally.
For reference sake, the translation for Nugget as of this post:
- Your turn begins.
- You must draw a card at the start of your turn, so you do that.*
- If it is Nugget, you choose** whether to immediately activate its effect, or add it to your hand.
- If you activate that freshly drawn Nugget, you draw three cards.
- If you choose not to Activate it, then add it to your hand.***
The second (or third or fourth) copy of Nugget was not drawn as part of your draw for the turn, but as part of the effect of that first copy of Nugget, so the other copies will not trigger. Pokémon lacks a "Draw Phase" the way games like Magic: The Gathering, Yu-Gi-Oh, and many others have; while you have to draw a card at the start of your turn* it is a mandatory action. I know of no effects that increase how many cards you draw as part of your manual draw for the turn.
Combos for Nugget:
Anything that lets you control the top card of your deck. Such combos only work if neither you nor your opponent do anything that would force you to draw from the top of your deck, shuffle your deck, or add another card onto the top of your deck. Here are some cards that can be used to put a Nugget on top of your deck:
- Florges (Forbidden Light 86/131
- Magcargo (SM - Celestial Storm 24/168), via its "Smooth Over" Ability
- Mallow, via her only effect (Expanded only)
- Oranguru (Sword & Shield 148/202), via its "Primate Wisdom" Ability
- Recycle, via its only effect (Expanded only)
Remember not to use any effects that force you to mess with your own deck afterward, unless they're worth abandoning the Oranguru/Nugget combo!
Common Counters for Nugget:
- Marnie
- Reset Stamp
Reasons to not run Nugget:
- Deck doesn't contain enough cards that let you artificially top-deck it.
- Lack of deck space
- Track record of similar cards
*If you can't draw because of no cards left, you lose. There may also be some card effects that prevent you drawing at the start of your turn.
**The wording from the translation actually makes it sound like you have to use Nugget if you draw it, but there's no way to regularly enforce such a thing, so I assume it will be optional.
***Once Nugget is added to your hand, even if you just drew it, you usually can't prove it, so don't do this unintentionally.
These ideas for Nugget seem too much like coming straight out of Magical Christmas Land.
You're playing a card that's dead 90% of the time, so you can use Oranguru in its worst case scenario, so if you don't get Marnie'd/Reset Stamp'd you get to draw three cards a turn too late.
Unless we get other cards that can efficiently manipulate our topdecks, I don't see it played.
You're playing a card that's dead 90% of the time, so you can use Oranguru in its worst case scenario, so if you don't get Marnie'd/Reset Stamp'd you get to draw three cards a turn too late.
Unless we get other cards that can efficiently manipulate our topdecks, I don't see it played.
Based on the available results from the Oceania International Championship, half of decks to not run Marnie. Half also don't have room for Reset Stamp. I'm in a hurry this morning, so I can't comb through the results to see how much overlap there is between the two. I can tell you the first-place finisher ran zero Marnie and two Reset Stamp, second ran neither, and third only ran the Marnie.
I'm not promising this is going to be great, but I'm not dismissing it because on paper it looks good. Oranguru (SSH) is in about a third of decks already, so they're just making space for copies of Nugget. Nugget is a dead card when not drawn at the start of your turn, but this can happen naturally, or be arranged by Oranguru as a side effect of using Oranguru exchanging one unneeded card from your hand for whatever is on top of your deck.
Even if you use Marnie or Reset Stamp to thwart this... so what? It is a reusable combo that isn't vital to the deck. You're potentially wasting Marie or Reset Stamp when they aren't optimal plays. If I wanted to be rude, I'd come up with a derisive term for it but hey... maybe the metagame changes and everyone's running 4 Marnie and 4 Reset Stamp. Maybe you just don't realize quite what you're saying. Or the best argument against Nugget "Sure it would be nice, but who has the space for it?"
From this I am reading that half of them did. Getting your "combo" disrupted is the least important downside of this card, just a cherry on the cake.
Many cards look good "on paper" - hence Magical Christmas Land - but Nugget doesn't even look that good the more you think about it. Getting to draw three cards from an item sounds great, until you realize you don't get to see these cards until the next turn. It's the same reason Blue's Tactics hasn't replaced every Supporter in every deck, what happens this turn is generally way more important than what happens later.
And you are really only drawing two cards - because you'd draw one of them anyway. So, would you play a "Draw one extra card next turn" (unstackable) Item? Obviously not, because Judge's Whistle exists. How about "Draw two extra cards next turn"? Here comes Acro Bike, allowing you to also look at two cards immediately, but you can only keep one, so it's a toss-up. Now add to that every downside this card has - how it needs Oranguru (and uses it's charge), how it clogs up your hand, how it can get disabled with hand manipulation - and does it still look good?
I think the two of you are arguing over this rather pointlessly until we see this in practice. We'll either see that it overall increases consistency, in which case it will be played by [everyone | decks that already play Oranguru/etc. | decks that can cheaply add Oranguru] or it will not increase consistency, in which case it will be played by nobody. It's certainly not _so_ crazy that it's not worth testing, and it'll get a _ton_ of testing undoubtedly, unless it's just so obviously bad that it fails out immediately.
My feeling is I would put it at the 30% range for improving consistency - it's more likely than not to be a useless card, but either there will be a few decks that can benefit from it, or there's some small chance that it actually will improve most decks. I just don't think you can argue over it *theoretically* - you have to get a lot of testing data.
I am less inclined to think it helps "fast" decks (think Pikazek) - they only have a turn or two to set up, so no time to play it.
Slower decks, or control/mill/stall decks, are way more likely to find this useful, though with the latter trio it's a question of how this does with them vs. the other cards they might prefer to top deck. Is it worth topdecking a nugget that will get you the next 3 (random) cards from your 6-8 card deck? Or better to put a specific card there? Can this be combined with, say, Resource Management Oranguru to put the nugget on top of an empty deck and then the next three cards are the three cards you need for the next turn, maybe?
Again, I'm not totally sure even in those cases (as you point out, @Yaginku, Acro Bike would do some of that too); but I do think that in the latter case for example, it allows you 3 draws, while Acro Bike would only allow you two (and keep only one). Not quite the same thing. Obviously with the way-less drawback of not being a dead card if you draw it off a Cynthia or what have you, but still.
I also could see this as having some advantage for decks at high risk of being put into top-deck mode - either decks that are very often reset stamped to 1 card, or as a counter for control decks that discard your hand and keep you on the draw only. Again - I have no idea if this would be worth it, especially in a fairly control-light environment, but worth considering, at least, I think. I think I'm still bearish on this utility overall, but would love to see it tested.
My feeling is I would put it at the 30% range for improving consistency - it's more likely than not to be a useless card, but either there will be a few decks that can benefit from it, or there's some small chance that it actually will improve most decks. I just don't think you can argue over it *theoretically* - you have to get a lot of testing data.
I am less inclined to think it helps "fast" decks (think Pikazek) - they only have a turn or two to set up, so no time to play it.
Slower decks, or control/mill/stall decks, are way more likely to find this useful, though with the latter trio it's a question of how this does with them vs. the other cards they might prefer to top deck. Is it worth topdecking a nugget that will get you the next 3 (random) cards from your 6-8 card deck? Or better to put a specific card there? Can this be combined with, say, Resource Management Oranguru to put the nugget on top of an empty deck and then the next three cards are the three cards you need for the next turn, maybe?
Again, I'm not totally sure even in those cases (as you point out, @Yaginku, Acro Bike would do some of that too); but I do think that in the latter case for example, it allows you 3 draws, while Acro Bike would only allow you two (and keep only one). Not quite the same thing. Obviously with the way-less drawback of not being a dead card if you draw it off a Cynthia or what have you, but still.
I also could see this as having some advantage for decks at high risk of being put into top-deck mode - either decks that are very often reset stamped to 1 card, or as a counter for control decks that discard your hand and keep you on the draw only. Again - I have no idea if this would be worth it, especially in a fairly control-light environment, but worth considering, at least, I think. I think I'm still bearish on this utility overall, but would love to see it tested.
It isn't totally pointless, but it is stupid. Nor was it really about Nugget, at least on my end. @Yaginku came across to me as being rather rude, and instead of ignoring that and moving a long, I decided to let myself be annoyed and post annoyed comments. Yay me. ¬_¬ You can discuss and debate cards even when you can't test them. While it isn't a beginner level skill, it is pretty much required to advance to any level of remote competence. There are too many cards to test them all. There is a right way and a wrong way to go about it, and I was going about it the wrong way. Sorry, everyone (and that includes you, Yaginku).
I'm not done discussing Nugget yet, though, which may make that apology seem hollow. Practice makes perfect, including practicing one's Theorymon.
Yaginku did bring up some great points, and I think there is still merit in the discussion, at least if I can behave myself... but for now, I will stop there, because if everyone is sick of the conversation, then there really is no point in continuing.
@Otaku I guess what I was trying to say was the discussion of theoretical value is fine, but the way we find out if it's useful is more statistical in nature. You're right that it has a theoretical use; @Yaginku is not wrong in the objections they laid out. But I feel like the only way to solve those objections is to test and find out, ultimately... excepting the special case of mill/etc. decks where you could definitively say this strategy is enabled by this and is clearly better than the default strategy (if that's true), anyway?
OK so nugget is bad in my opion because its slow and the few decks that can take advantage of this are better off either searching for a card that they need for the moment or should swap the top card with a card that would support the strategy although when you can use its a really good effect and totaly worth using but i feel the cons out weigh the pros
That's kind of the point. Nugget does not allow you to draw three, because it happens at a time where you'd draw a card anyway (and it overrides that draw). Nugget in reality draws two cards in addition to the card you'd draw. That's why Acro Bike is a very similar card - you have to throw one of the cards in the trash, but you get to see them immediately. You can also just do it from your hand, instead of using an elaborate combo; it's not a dead card in your hand; and it cannot be disrupted.
It's also not dissimilar to having a Cinccino on the board - you discard one and get to see the next two cards. In my opinion, if this just read "You draw two extra cards next turn, you cannot stack this effect.", it'd still be a tough call - although the presence of Reset Stamp would make it MUCH more playable.
This isn't really a case of "wait until we test it" - we don't need to test every common to know it's bad. Nugget is definitely an interesting and novel effect, which obviously makes you take a second look at it, but it's ultimately nothing special. Not saying that it will never see any play - who knows, maybe we'll get a card in the future that makes abusing it extremely easy. But if you can so easily manipulate your topdeck, why not just put the exact card you want there?
You're forgetting one important thing in your calculation though: deck thinning. If you draw Nugget and then use its effect, that's 4 cards out of your deck in one shot, vs 1 otherwise. That can certainly be relevant, and is a big reason why a card like this can only exist in Pokemon; in any other card game this would be broken as hell.