It's definitely not unbeatable. There's flaws in every deck. As long as you've got a mega in the deck to deal with it, you'll be fine.
Discussion Jolteon EX
- Thread starter LightningCloud224
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In electric decks (possibly night march, raikou, manectric) zebtrika can be teched in to allow you to hit through Jolteons attack.
Garchomp just destroys this thing. I think it could be a good play for states.
But garchomp gets shut down by trevenant break and toad. This will be a very interesting meta to see play out.
I've played against this deck quite a few times PTCGO. I usually win with most my decks. It is because most of my decks are a bit well rounded. Pokemon Lock decks/Excluding hand lock decks -- inevitable fall to well rounded decks because they can't output enough damage. The problem with well rounded decks is that they are not singular focused. They might have some offense and defense. They run evolution's, Megas, and basics. With this in mind, they can be trickier to play. Usually, Competitive decks are built strictly around one or two attacks. A well rounded deck can be built around 4 to 6 different attacks that is played based on what is on the play mat at the time.
Basically, with the new expansion coming, it won't really be a meta change it will be a play style change. Trainers will need to conform to pokemon lock decks for sake ease of play, or take into account the variables on the game board and play a chess style of play. Or they can just try and item lock first turn, which, in tournament play can be a lot to ask for on every game for standard. In expanded, not so much. They can also play cards that just put damage counters on the card and knock it out early. The new Alakazam card does this with ease.
In standard, I don't believe you need Garchomp or Gallade (though helpful) to the beat the deck. There are quite a few pokemon like M Mewtwo that will really give the card a run for it's money.
In Expanded, because of Archelops, and the ease of getting him out on first turn, it all comes down to whom goes first. A first turn item lock can put the deck on it's heels pretty quickly.
Basically, with the new expansion coming, it won't really be a meta change it will be a play style change. Trainers will need to conform to pokemon lock decks for sake ease of play, or take into account the variables on the game board and play a chess style of play. Or they can just try and item lock first turn, which, in tournament play can be a lot to ask for on every game for standard. In expanded, not so much. They can also play cards that just put damage counters on the card and knock it out early. The new Alakazam card does this with ease.
In standard, I don't believe you need Garchomp or Gallade (though helpful) to the beat the deck. There are quite a few pokemon like M Mewtwo that will really give the card a run for it's money.
In Expanded, because of Archelops, and the ease of getting him out on first turn, it all comes down to whom goes first. A first turn item lock can put the deck on it's heels pretty quickly.
So the main counters are Lysandre and Gallade, can ayone think of anything else?
Any fully charge mega will counter the card. Latios EXwill counter it too. Metwo EX can Damage exchange onto it because the attack moves and exchange damage counters. Silent Fear can also attack it because it puts damage counters onto it. Tyruantrum ability allows its attack to go straight through it and it's a one shot. There are several cards that are circumstantial that will stall it based off how it is played: Jerachi Promo, Aegislash, and others.
Lastly, you could play WailLord and just deck the opponent out. The deck will never get to the hitting power it will need to one shot WailLord. And rarely do they run Bunebly.
There are quite a few ways around the deck, that don't involve playing against weakness and are considered very competitive decks.
Lastly, you could play WailLord and just deck the opponent out. The deck will never get to the hitting power it will need to one shot WailLord. And rarely do they run Bunebly.
There are quite a few ways around the deck, that don't involve playing against weakness and are considered very competitive decks.
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I think strategies which combat special energy will be borderline useless or at least unreliable against this threat. It does not need to use special energy to power up quickly with max elixirs and abuse free retreat power to switch to backup attackers. A basic deck would have to plow through six prizes before they setup one jolteon potentially. To make matters worse it has access to rough seas healing so you need to be thinking about one-shotting it or maybe reliably two-shotting it with enough remaining hp to last through multiple jolteon ex. Not sure what pokemon company was thinking when they had it be high hp, free retreat, great typing and have this lockdown attack do an impressive 70 damage (90 with muscle band) making it so it could also take prizes fairly fast. It's attack should have been like 40 damage to make it somewhat fair.
Fighting decks, rare candy decks and evolution decks may have too much trouble with the hyped trevenant decks to be a reliable counter due to reliance on item cards. I think utilizing mega evolution cards are the only true answer besides calling upon specialists like tyrantrum-ex. You can go with greninja break, but that is really slow or hard to setup reliably. Garchomp fails to hit the right numbers against non-ex decks. Vespiquen is OHKO'd with a muscle band and takes a lot of dedicated setup.
As with regice before it, Escape rope + Lysandre works if they have any benched pokemon (and you can one shot it). It is unwise to not have a bench unless you are in total control sitting on a bunch of lysandre and vs seeker in your hand to KO any basics before they evolve and get higher hp.
Damage change mewtwo is a basic that I see as only buying some time in a weird way, but is not an effective solution unless you play it with fighting fury belt (and they don't) so you can one-shot it and have a good way to have total control of the damage on the board. Keep in mind that it can evolve into a much bigger threat that can just take it out normally by the simple fact that it evolves and does more damage because your opponent needs lots of energies to attack you and execute their basic lockdown strategy.
Fighting decks, rare candy decks and evolution decks may have too much trouble with the hyped trevenant decks to be a reliable counter due to reliance on item cards. I think utilizing mega evolution cards are the only true answer besides calling upon specialists like tyrantrum-ex. You can go with greninja break, but that is really slow or hard to setup reliably. Garchomp fails to hit the right numbers against non-ex decks. Vespiquen is OHKO'd with a muscle band and takes a lot of dedicated setup.
As with regice before it, Escape rope + Lysandre works if they have any benched pokemon (and you can one shot it). It is unwise to not have a bench unless you are in total control sitting on a bunch of lysandre and vs seeker in your hand to KO any basics before they evolve and get higher hp.
Damage change mewtwo is a basic that I see as only buying some time in a weird way, but is not an effective solution unless you play it with fighting fury belt (and they don't) so you can one-shot it and have a good way to have total control of the damage on the board. Keep in mind that it can evolve into a much bigger threat that can just take it out normally by the simple fact that it evolves and does more damage because your opponent needs lots of energies to attack you and execute their basic lockdown strategy.
A tech-able, but not necessarily reliable card is Zoroark (for standard). It's versatile with most decks and puts on pressure as long as they have 3 benched pokemon down (which is very likely), doing 100 damage. With Muscle Band/FF Belt, they are 10-20 short of a KO, and even with Rough Seas and Belt, If they have 4 Benched pokemon down (or a 3-4/4-3 scenario) you will take a 2HKO. If your opponent does not plan to bench more than 2 Benched Pokemon and they happen to run Giovanni's Scheme (which is more then likely), then Zoroark can be OHKOed with either a Band or a Belt, which is the riskiness.
I read half of the posts, but I should get #1 Dad award. My son and I went to the store, bought the Mew and Celebi packs and I almost had a stroke/ / / in CAD$ 25.00 each. Jokingly, I said, 'Don't worry, son. We're gonna pull a Jolteon and it's all going to be worth it.' Guess what happened? In 4 packs we got Charizard EX, Meowstic EX, M Gardevoir EX and Jolteon EX. The pull rate is obviously disgustingly good, either that or I'm the best dad ever.
I think Jolteon EX is an excellent card, but fails to be so outstanding as to be able to carry a deck on it's own: Like Regice, it's damage output is not the greatest. But it does point out a very real plague on the TCG: item-lock which makes virtually all stage 2 decks unplayable by removing the only card which is able to give those decks the speed they need to compete in top tiers: Rare Candy.
In an era where the large majority of stage 1's are now pale versions of themselves and only the stepping stone to a break, or atrociously unable to attack because they have that 'ability' / win condition for that EX card which was released in the same set and stage 2's are a real gamble
That's mainly because of the dominance of Deluge decks and Night March. The TCGi's solution to these is to buff the arch nemesis of Archie's Blastoise and Battle Compressor decks, without regard to the creativity that can be found in stage 2 evolution decks.
Seismitoad EX already created a difficult playing field for these decks, Vileplume, the recent super buffing of Trevenant has only made it orders of magnitude worse.
My proposal is for the TCGi to print a card, something like this:
Pokemon Breeder (tip of the hat to the old school players)
Supporter
Choose 1 of your Basic Pokemon in play. Search your deck for a Stage 2 card that evolves from that pokemon, put that card on the Basic Pokemon (this counts as evolving that pokemon)
The difference being that it is a supporter and it is a search card. You could add the Rare Candy Errata text if you like (can't use this card on your first turn, blah blah blah)
Basically, it would make every stage 2 playable. It would be a staple of 4-ofs for many decks, but what an explosion of variety we would see.
Things like Garbodor would still rule over Deluge decks, and item lock would still be a thing, but so many more decks would be viable. Pokemon kind of sucks when your choices are lock deck or anti-lock deck.
Gee do I play Trev Break or Darkness, Sableye . Garbs or Seismitoad? There are so many awesome evolution pokemon that are unplayable in a competitive format, why not break the field wide open?
Even the best ever stage 2 attackers with the best support auto lose to item lock: like Garchomp.
I think Jolteon EX is an excellent card, but fails to be so outstanding as to be able to carry a deck on it's own: Like Regice, it's damage output is not the greatest. But it does point out a very real plague on the TCG: item-lock which makes virtually all stage 2 decks unplayable by removing the only card which is able to give those decks the speed they need to compete in top tiers: Rare Candy.
In an era where the large majority of stage 1's are now pale versions of themselves and only the stepping stone to a break, or atrociously unable to attack because they have that 'ability' / win condition for that EX card which was released in the same set and stage 2's are a real gamble
That's mainly because of the dominance of Deluge decks and Night March. The TCGi's solution to these is to buff the arch nemesis of Archie's Blastoise and Battle Compressor decks, without regard to the creativity that can be found in stage 2 evolution decks.
Seismitoad EX already created a difficult playing field for these decks, Vileplume, the recent super buffing of Trevenant has only made it orders of magnitude worse.
My proposal is for the TCGi to print a card, something like this:
Pokemon Breeder (tip of the hat to the old school players)
Supporter
Choose 1 of your Basic Pokemon in play. Search your deck for a Stage 2 card that evolves from that pokemon, put that card on the Basic Pokemon (this counts as evolving that pokemon)
The difference being that it is a supporter and it is a search card. You could add the Rare Candy Errata text if you like (can't use this card on your first turn, blah blah blah)
Basically, it would make every stage 2 playable. It would be a staple of 4-ofs for many decks, but what an explosion of variety we would see.
Things like Garbodor would still rule over Deluge decks, and item lock would still be a thing, but so many more decks would be viable. Pokemon kind of sucks when your choices are lock deck or anti-lock deck.
Gee do I play Trev Break or Darkness, Sableye . Garbs or Seismitoad? There are so many awesome evolution pokemon that are unplayable in a competitive format, why not break the field wide open?
Even the best ever stage 2 attackers with the best support auto lose to item lock: like Garchomp.
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You just gave me a demonic idea. Zoroark BREAK can copy the Flash Ray forcing it to swift or retreat.
This is true. If I was a jolteon player though I would lysandre up any zoruas/zoroarks on the bench just to be safe.
I would too. A lysandre though means they are not using giovanni's scheme, so a zoroark will at least hang on. This card does present a problem.
I think everything depends on how fast the board gets setup. I do standby my original post. This card pushes people towards megas and evolution decks. It causes decks to be unplayable because it causes a easy to establish victory strategy that is literally impossible to work around for any big basic decks. It is a shame too, they just printed fighting fury belt and now only a handful of basic pokemon can actually make proper use of it.
Usually it's the Megas that bail you out against the deck. Once the player drops Zoroark, the Joleteon Deck just minimizes the bench. The deck only needs two Joletons and a Mega Manetric to get going. Most the Megas just output to much damage for the deck to get going. The deck does force the trainer to Maxies for Gallade or Auto loss. Even then, Jolteon EX is a kind of deck you play target whistle and catcher. The inevitable is the trainer will fill the opponents bench up with shaymins and Yveltals Zoraus and Yveltal EX to control the board.
It is the reason why it has a tougher play with Trev. Trev locks all those item cards and slows the evolution of M Manetric down.
I agree with everything you said except this. Jolteon, at least from videos I've seen is a dig list. By this I mean is uses Shaymin, Trainer's Mail, etc. to get the stuff it needs to attack/discard. With all of the basics on the bench (Most likely another Manectric, 1-2 Jolteon/Raikou, and 1-2 Shaymin), you can't easily drop basics off. I know the deck runs AZ, but that is not reliable.
Yes. It will definitely come down to the build. The decks I use and played against used catcher and whistle. But, ya, if it is a speed build, than there is more opportunity for error because they fill their bench up. Honestly, because of Zoroark and Item Lock I've been running my decks a bit more conservative and are seeing a bit of success in them.
Against speed builds, the other card that works really well is Delinquent. Inevitably, speed builds result in 3 to 2 cards in their hand at the end of the round. Delinquent stalls them a bit while you setup. Usually, at the end of the round the opponent has a DCE attachment, Sycamore, or basic energy in their hand. Forcing them to discard these resources is a bit massive. But, ya, I do see your point.
Umm, combo Jolteon EX with this in a Fairy box, and you got a winning deck... Besides the occasional oppenents Lysandre, you could potentially lock the opponent out completely just by not letting them do any damage. When, they do, you could just Max Potion it off... These two together, seem obviously very broken...
Glaceon-EX – Water – HP170
Basic Pokemon
[W][C] Second Bite: 20+ damage. This attack does 10 more damage for each damage counter on your opponent’s Active Pokemon.
[W][C][C] Crystal Ray: 70 damage. During your opponent’s next turn, prevent all damage done to this Pokemon by Evolved Pokemon.
When a Pokemon-EX has been Knocked Out, your opponent takes 2 Prize cards.
Weakness: Metal (x2)
Resistance: none
Retreat: 2
Glaceon-EX – Water – HP170
Basic Pokemon
[W][C] Second Bite: 20+ damage. This attack does 10 more damage for each damage counter on your opponent’s Active Pokemon.
[W][C][C] Crystal Ray: 70 damage. During your opponent’s next turn, prevent all damage done to this Pokemon by Evolved Pokemon.
When a Pokemon-EX has been Knocked Out, your opponent takes 2 Prize cards.
Weakness: Metal (x2)
Resistance: none
Retreat: 2
Attachments
Possibly, but a lot of mega will one shot Joleteon EX, or just knock out Spirtzee early. Because that tacit has been around for a few years, experience players can maneuver around it.
I've been seeing more fairy online, but I think it's because I've played against it for so long, I understand the crux of the Fairy builds a bit better. Because of this, I can out maneuver the opponent when playing. -- (I don't consider myself a good player either.) Older, better players, at tournaments can really put a lot of pressure on these decks quickly. Either by playing Yveltal, Enetie, M Mewtwo EX, Seismitoad, Lacario EX, Vespequeen, or Night March they setup quickly and require little effort to start attacking the fairy box. When setup was slow, prior to Shaymin, Fairy Box worked well, but now, decks can overwhelm Fairy Box decks fast on Round One, Turn two.
Because of this, I do not foresee a fairy Box lock decks being a top tier. Still, that is not say, I won't eat crow in a couple of months when someone creates a killer Fairy Box deck.
I've been seeing more fairy online, but I think it's because I've played against it for so long, I understand the crux of the Fairy builds a bit better. Because of this, I can out maneuver the opponent when playing. -- (I don't consider myself a good player either.) Older, better players, at tournaments can really put a lot of pressure on these decks quickly. Either by playing Yveltal, Enetie, M Mewtwo EX, Seismitoad, Lacario EX, Vespequeen, or Night March they setup quickly and require little effort to start attacking the fairy box. When setup was slow, prior to Shaymin, Fairy Box worked well, but now, decks can overwhelm Fairy Box decks fast on Round One, Turn two.
Because of this, I do not foresee a fairy Box lock decks being a top tier. Still, that is not say, I won't eat crow in a couple of months when someone creates a killer Fairy Box deck.
I see what you're saying. Fairy Box Has its counters, but it also has its utilities. But I'm not saying it has to be a fairy box to utilize this combo, but it could benefit from it. Hell, the Eeveelutions could very well end up being its own Archetype.
Yes, I agree. I think they will be played with the new Mew. Mew will just switch between attacks based on the active. With DM Valley, it will cost a two energy charge to get the attack off.