Juniper and Shaymin EX?

[dbgoldberg323]

So I saw this deck on the interwebz:

http://www.propokemon.com/deck-articles/japan-national-championships-winning-deck-info

I built a copy of the deck, and played it a few times tonight. One match was against an Outrage deck (Reshiram, Zekrom, Registeel EX, Kyurem) and the other was against ZekEXeels. The deck won both matches (though ZekEXeels gave it an AMAZING run for its money), but I had some questions about some of the cards, specifically

and

So with Juniper, why do people prefer this card over Cheren (if they don't have Cheren in the deck)? I am NOT a fan of discarding Pokémon or Supporters since in this deck they aren't recoverable. Sableye only gets "Items" back and Dark Patch only gets basic Dark Energies back. I have had some amazing things happen late-game by ditching my hand and drawing seven cards, yes, but without Junk Arm or Super Rod I'm scared to drop supporters or Pokémon that I may need. Maybe it's just me but I'm not a fan of Juniper. Is there any hope for Oak returning in Plasma Gale? :'(

As for Shaymin EX, I really don't like him. I know some people swear by his potential 150 damage, 2-energy attack, but I'd rather have Mewtwo EX in the deck. With Hydreigon moving energy around like a boss, I play-tested the deck with a Mewtwo EX in place of Shaymin EX, and Mewtwo did 180 damage to a fully energized Zekrom EX one turn. Shaymin can't hit that high, and I would have had to resort to two-shotting it instead.

I even half-considered Mew EX so that it could copy Darkrai EX's Night Spear, or Hydreigon's Dragon Blast, but 120 HP for an EX is a little low in my opinion.

What do you guys think about Juniper and Shaymin, and what do you think I should run in place of them, if anything?

 

[dmaster]

I believe this belongs more in the Competitive Forum as it deals with (not really arguably) a good Tier 1 deck in the B/W On format. If another Mod disagrees, they can move it back.

*Moved*

I'm sure there will be more in-depth answers but I can give some quick thoughts now.

In the B/W On format, good Supporters are a huge rarity. N is the only good shuffle draw and Juniper is the best straight draw we have. Not only that but it can discard Dark Energies as well, so maxing it out serves both purposes for consistency and setting up.

As for Shaymin EX, it's definitely a "tech" card. I've seen lists that have cut it for things like Mewtwo, but Shaymin is quite good against cards that are a thorn in Darkrai's side like Terrakion NV/Terrakion EX.

dmaster out.

 

[JPN Gallade]

Shaymin EX is played in this deck because of the grass type. Darkrai EX, the main attacker in the deck, is weak to fighting, and specifically, Terrakion and Terrakion EX (two very big fighting attackers right now). Both of these cards can easily one shot a Darkrai following after a KO they just experienced. If the Darkrai has Eviolite, they can either drop a PlusPower or a Tool Scrapper to get rid of it, thus proceeding to make the KO easier. While Terrakion may not be popular as much as it used to be, there is another very popular deck that uses Terrakion a lot: Mewtwo/Terrakion. The deck is heavy with Terrakion, and with the high amount of Tool Scrappers and PlusPowers it runs, the game can be over quickly if you don't have an answer to Terrakion.

So how exactly does Shaymin come into the big picture with the grass type? Well, the Terrakion(s) (with the EX included) are weak to grass. With this in mind, Shaymin hits through the Terrakions for weakness. Once your opponent has taken 2 prize cards (likely after they KOd your Darkrai), you can one shot Terrakion with Shaymin. Another reason why Shaymin is commonly used is because of the Fighting resistance. Combine that with the Eviolite and it will be very hard for Terrakion to retaliate it back (only 2-shotting it at best). Even though Mewtwo could counter the Shaymin back easily, it still needs a good amount of energies to KO it since Shaymin needs only 2 energies to attack (if the Shaymin has an Eviolite attached with full 110 HP and 2 energies attached, the Mewtwo needs to either have at least 5 energies attached or 4 energies and the PlusPower to KO, and with no Junk Arm BW-on, it will be hard to get-reuse PlusPowers).

Now, the 110 HP is still a problem though. Cards like Zekrom EX, an opposing Hydreigon, and Garchomp (with at least 2 Altarias out in order to KO a Shaymin with Eviolite using Dragon Blade, which is likely to happen) can easily one shot it because its true; 110 HP is very low for an EX. That's why Shaymin EX should be used carefully most of the time. In most games, he should be used right at the end because that's when he hits the hardest (or against Terrakion, it should still be played with caution because you may never know what might; they could charge up Mewtwo quickly to KO you), but if you run Super Rod in Darkrai/Hydreigon, Shaymin is a bit easier. If he gets knocked out early in the game, you can bring him back into the deck via the Super Rod, and dependent on the game state, the KO on Shaymin could set it up for even higher damage for Revenge Blast.

Thus, Shaymin EX is really more of a preference card. Shaymin is initially used as the late-game finisher and as a Terrakion counter. If you want to run an alternative to Shaymin EX, you could try Giratina EX. The thing about Giratina EX is that it is also a Terrakion counter, like Shaymin. Its second attack hits for 130, which is enough to OHKO Terrakion. It isn't weak to Terrakion either, being weak to only Dragon, and it also has very high HP (180 HP). If the Terrakion has Eviolite attached, that's okay. You could just go ahead and use it's first attack to 2 shot it, or if you run Tool Scrapper in Darkrai/Hydreigon (which is a possible tech to consider), you can just discard it and use the second attack from there. The only problem with Giratina EX is the dragon weakness, as Garchomp rips through it easily. Again, it is all preference.

You could consider Mew as an alternate card too. Like what you said though, 120 HP is also low for an EX, so like Shaymin, you need to play it carefully. It is all up to you.

Now onto the Juniper. Juniper is played in this deck because drawing seven cards is still amazing, no doubt about that. It can also be a fast, efficient way to get {D} energy cards in the discard pile so that you can take advantage of Dark Patch. Like what you said though, Juniper has been nerfed now because with no Junk Arm in the format, there is no way to reuse items.

However, looking back at what you said how you don't like getting Supporters in the discard because of Juniper, I can tell you that the same thing went on during HS-on. Yes, there was Junk Arm in grabbing the trainers easily, but HS-on had no supporter recovery, and still in BW-on, supporter recovery doesn't exist. Since you are also concerned about getting Pokemon in the discard pile as well, I would consider incorporating Super Rod into the deck because that will be your best way to recover the Pokemon you discard out of Professor Juniper. You can also keep grabbing back Super Rod thanks to Sableye, and if you still aren't so keen about Super Rod, I can tell you that Super Rod really helps in grabbing back Hydreigons your opponents will go after Hydreigon almost all of the time because it is so key to the deck).

And now to talk about what makes else makes Juniper useful in this deck: Sableye. Juniper's problem right now in other decks is discarding your own trainers (as I mentioned earlier), and Junk Arm, an item card that basically any deck could run, isn't around anymore to grab those items back. You must keep in mind Darkrai/Hydreigon is truly the one deck that has item recovery thanks to Sableye (it is also the only deck that can possibly run because of the Sableye needs a {D} to use that attack), so discarding them with Juniper doesn't matter as long as you have Sableye.

Really, as long as you have Sableye and Super Rod in this deck, Juniper really doesn't do you that much harm. However, if you are still not so keen about Juniper, I wouldn't advise cutting all 4 of them. Drawing 7 cards will prove useful in many situations, so I would keep only 2 at the very least. You could cut those extra Juniper cards for other Supporters/Supporter oriented cards, like a 3rd Random Receiver or maybe a few Cherens. I really wouldn't depend on Cheren too much because drawing 3 isn't as big as it seems. I mean, it's good since it is straightforward draw, but you really need to take advantage of drawing lots of cards too (like with N early in the game, or even Bianca since it is the one deck that will actually draw lots of cards with it thanks to all of the discarding that is done).

Hope you find my input useful! Just change the deck up bit, playtest around with it, and see what you think.

[/sand=JPN Gallade]

 

[dbgoldberg323]

Thanks for the responses! I'll keep playing it with the Shaymin because I totally understand now that Darkrai's weak to Fighting and Shaymin's resistant to it (and Terrakion is weak to Grass). As for the Junipers, I really REALLY hope Plasma Gale ends up introducing new shuffle & draw cards, or alternate draw cards (and on a slightly off-topic note, maybe even more dragon-type cards).

I'm not that worried about the whole discarding supporters and Pokémon bit, but I do like the suggestion of Super Rod. Yes, it would be nice to be able to throw Darkrai and Hydreigon back into the deck and subsequently search either of them back out via an Ultra Ball.

One thing I can say though is I didn't think Sableye was going to be worth it at ALL, but when I actually got to use it I discovered how amazing that card actually is. It single-handedly won me the two games in the match against the ZekEXeels deck by searching out two catchers (for my last two prizes in the first game) and then searching for a catcher and a dark patch (in the last game). Sableye might sacrifice himself to get me those items, but man, using a previously discarded Pokémon Catcher to kill an Eelektrik with Night Spear is a pretty good feeling.

 

[MDL]

My best start possible with Darkrai/Hydreigon is starting with Sableye, Junipering away a hand with a Rare Candy and putting a Deino on the bench. I will have Hydreigon T2 90% of the time that happens
Sableye is awesome. I'm even considering running 4, just to try to start with him whenever I can (don't know if this is a good idea though), since it gives a BIG advantage over your opponent.
When I started testing the deck I lost 4 matches in a row, and then I noticed I forgot to put in Sableye Then I started winning a lot more.

 

[Brave Vesperia]

The only reason I don't like Sableye is a well-timed N from your opponent can really screw you over.

I know how you feel about Juniper. I love the card, I just don't love what I have to discard, but I think that's just my bad luck with her. I find running 2 or 3 works out best in most decks. I agree about needing something like Professor Oak's New Theory back.

Shaymin EX is GREAT against Terrakion, they can't one-shot it and it's a great late-game sweeper.

 

[RogueChomp]

Juniper is the best draw supporter in the format. Period. There are no decks without it. It is godly after a late game N, and it helps discard energies for Dark Patch or Eelektrik. Draw 7 is great, and Cheren's draw 3 cannot be compared to it.

As for Shaymin EX, it works in this tremedously as a late game sweeper and is a perfect tech in D/H. It can come out of nowhere and nab 2-3 prizes easily. Its play is limited to energy acceleration decks IMO because it is SO easy to KO.

Not to mention it runs through Terrakion/Terrakion EX.

 

[bagleopard]

The only reason I don't like Sableye is a well-timed N from your opponent can really screw you over.

That isn't a reason to not like Sableye. Think about it - if you're not going to be using Junk Hunt you're not going to a second chance to use your discarded items. If your opponent uses N, you're still not going to have those items in your hand to use. In fact, if you do use Junk Hunt and your opponent uses N, the items do go back into your deck and there's still a chance that you'd draw into them. There really isn't a reason not to use Sableye in a deck that uses Darkness Energy.

Regarding the OP's unease toward Juniper, I agree that it can be awkward at times - having multiple copies of her as your only Supporter or if you have to use her but will discard a Hydreigon or two in the process if you do can be a total bummer. But honestly, her merits vastly outweigh her demerits. She's truly too good not to use. There are a few decks where it'll be more advantageous to use the other three draw Supporters instead, but Darkrai/Hydreigon is not one of them.

Also, I consider Shaymin EX a staple in Darkrai/Hydreigon. It's the only reliable check to the ubiquitous Terrakion (and other Grass-weak Fighting-types you might encounter) which is a big deal. It can also pick up the slack where your other Pokémon can't by having the highest potential damage output in the deck, even able to take out other EX Pokémon in one shot. I can't say how many times Shaymin EX has come down to take the last few prizes for the win, but I'm always glad to have it around.

 

[Daddy]

Shaymin Ex is an amzing card in this deck. If you run into a garbodor terrakion, you are pretty much done for. Shaymin 1 shots terrakions if they have taken 2 prize cards. That is easily accomplished by koing a darkrai. Just wanted to give you a little info on the little guy!