XY Learnable moves revision

[professorlight]

Yes! I forgot about umbreon. Mostly crappy offensive moves (the dark type itself are mostly crappy or gimmicky offensive moves). but at least, in BW2 it can learn snarl by TM and foul play and dark pulse by move tutor (as annoying as that is).
So that's my strategy with umbreon: confuse ray/toxic, moonlight, screech and foul play/faint attack/assurance (does the confusion/poison damage counts for assurance?) or snarl, dark pulse, moonlight, shadow ball.

0.o o gosh I don't have BW2 so I never knew about foul play. That opens up a whole different option. It works amazingly because his attack is only 65 so most things have more. And you wouldn't need curse then because you don't need to boost your attack. In that case I would like Umbreon to have stockpile to boost his amazing defense and special defense at the same time, as well as maybe agility to boost his bad speed. That way he could run a Wish, Foul Play, Meanlook, Stockpile moveset OR a Wish, Foul Play, Agility, Meanlook. Or even the one I said in the other post.
Bottom line is Umbreon would actually be usable with: Stockpile, Agility, bulk up, and a stronger dark move.

I don't think that would ever happen, agility seems to be jolteon's schtick and stockpile is a rare move and goes always with spit up and swallow, and that seems to be out of eevelutions territory.
Can you tell me why in competitive sets people always go for wish rather than moonlight and the like? is it just because it can cure another pokemon? I'm really asking, I don't pay much attention to counters and competitive sets.

 

[Ohman177]

0.o o gosh I don't have BW2 so I never knew about foul play. That opens up a whole different option. It works amazingly because his attack is only 65 so most things have more. And you wouldn't need curse then because you don't need to boost your attack. In that case I would like Umbreon to have stockpile to boost his amazing defense and special defense at the same time, as well as maybe agility to boost his bad speed. That way he could run a Wish, Foul Play, Meanlook, Stockpile moveset OR a Wish, Foul Play, Agility, Meanlook. Or even the one I said in the other post.
Bottom line is Umbreon would actually be usable with: Stockpile, Agility, bulk up, and a stronger dark move.

I don't think that would ever happen, agility seems to be jolteon's schtick and stockpile is a rare move and goes always with spit up and swallow, and that seems to be out of eevelutions territory.
Can you tell me why in competitive sets people always go for wish rather than moonlight and the like? is it just because it can cure another pokemon? I'm really asking, I don't pay much attention to counters and competitive sets.

Rain and Sandstorm are so overused and moonlight barely heals under those conditions so it's unreliable. And I know those moves were wishful thinking but It would be so great. And maybe he could get the stockpile moves. That one makes more sense than the random agility i threw in haha.

 

[Ghost King]

I always had umbreon with moonlight,swagger,foul play, stockpile while holding the leftovers that was always a great tatic with me.

 

[Ohman177]

I always had umbreon with moonlight,swagger,foul play, stockpile while holding the leftovers that was always a great tatic with me.

swagger and foul play make no sense together because you are essentially giving yourself confusion for nothing considering you end up doing nothing with the attack boost because foul play uses the target's attack, not yours. And unless you're on a team with someone like Groudon who has permanent sun, making moonlight heal for 2/3 health instead of just half, it's way too unpredictable. And might I ask, how did you get stockpile on Umbreon???

 

[Drohn]

I always had umbreon with moonlight,swagger,foul play, stockpile while holding the leftovers that was always a great tatic with me.

swagger and foul play make no sense together because you are essentially giving yourself confusion for nothing considering you end up doing nothing with the attack boost because foul play uses the target's attack, not yours. And unless you're on a team with someone like Groudon who has permanent sun, making moonlight heal for 2/3 health instead of just half, it's way too unpredictable. And might I ask, how did you get stockpile on Umbreon???

@Ghost King & Ohman177: Swagger boosts the opponents attack and confuses the opponent; not the user. Also, Umbreon cannot legitimately learn Stockpile.
@Professorlight: I am almost sure (not 100%) that Assurance doesn't get activated by the Burned and Poisoned status conditions, since they do damage after the attacks are used. Assurance requires the opponent to be hurt in the same turn. I think entry hazards do count.

Now that that's settled, let's stay on topic of what move you think Pokémon should/shouldn't know and why! You can discuss and ask questions regarding move sets and tactics here! There is a "Simple Question" thread on that forum where you can take your concerns.

 

[Ohman177]

swagger and foul play make no sense together because you are essentially giving yourself confusion for nothing considering you end up doing nothing with the attack boost because foul play uses the target's attack, not yours. And unless you're on a team with someone like Groudon who has permanent sun, making moonlight heal for 2/3 health instead of just half, it's way too unpredictable. And might I ask, how did you get stockpile on Umbreon???

@Ghost King & Ohman177: Swagger boosts the opponents attack and confuses the opponent; not the user. Also, Umbreon cannot legitimately learn Stockpile.
@Professorlight: I am almost sure (not 100%) that Assurance doesn't get activated by the Burned and Poisoned status conditions, since they do damage after the attacks are used. Assurance requires the opponent to be hurt in the same turn. I think entry hazards do count.

Now that that's settled, let's stay on topic of what move you think Pokémon should/shouldn't know and why! You can discuss and ask questions regarding move sets and tactics here! There is a "Simple Question" thread on that forum where you can take your concerns.

Ah yes, sorry. I don't know what I was thinking haha. Swagger and foul play make much more sense now.
But yes let's get back to the topic by leaving it at the fact that stockpile would make umbreon perfect.

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Also if they're going to insist on flygon being dragon, can he at least get dragon dance? He barely has any stat changers, the only usable one being hone claws, and that's not much at all.

 

[professorlight]

Also if they're going to insist on flygon being dragon, can he at least get dragon dance? He barely has any stat changers, the only usable one being hone claws, and that's not much at all.

Or better: quiver dance. that could make hyper beam more usable, and don't get me started on draco meteor. Also, with a sandstorm boost, would be a special wall and special sweeper at the same time.

 

[Mitja]

How did you guys even think of Stockpile in the first place o.o
There is a move that does the same but isn't limited to 3 turns max, and wouldn't be "wtf" on Umbreon:
Cosmic Power.

 

[Drohn]

Or better: quiver dance. that could make hyper beam more usable, and don't get me started on draco meteor. Also, with a sandstorm boost, would be a special wall and special sweeper at the same time.

Quiver dance is mostly used by Bug-type Pokémon. Flygon is in the Bug egg group, however. Is that why you think it would fit it? Or do you have another reasoning behind it?

On a side note, Sandstorm only boosts the Special Defense of Rock-type Pokémon, if I recall correctly. It wouldn't affect Flygon.

 

[Ohman177]

How did you guys even think of Stockpile in the first place o.o
There is a move that does the same but isn't limited to 3 turns max, and wouldn't be "wtf" on Umbreon:
Cosmic Power.

I love you. This makes so much more sense idk why I didn't see it.

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Or better: quiver dance. that could make hyper beam more usable, and don't get me started on draco meteor. Also, with a sandstorm boost, would be a special wall and special sweeper at the same time.

Quiver dance is mostly used by Bug-type Pokémon. Flygon is in the Bug egg group, however. Is that why you think it would fit it? Or do you have another reasoning behind it?

On a side note, Sandstorm only boosts the Special Defense of Rock-type Pokémon, if I recall correctly. It wouldn't affect Flygon.

But flygon's attack is way better than his special attack.

 

[Drohn]

But flygon's attack is way better than his special attack.

Remember this is about moves that we find that Pokémon should know, based on what we know about them; not about what move set will benefit them most in competitive battles. Please keep all posts here on topic and support your views!

 

[professorlight]

Quiver dance is mostly used by Bug-type Pokémon. Flygon is in the Bug egg group, however. Is that why you think it would fit it? Or do you have another reasoning behind it?

On a side note, Sandstorm only boosts the Special Defense of Rock-type Pokémon, if I recall correctly. It wouldn't affect Flygon.

Quiver dance is utilized mainly by bug types with wings, we don't even know what it represents/is, so I have no parameters to say what could and couldn't use it, lilligant uses it, and she is not even bug-like, after all.
Flygon is a winged bug-like pokemon which, due to being in the bug egg group, learns a lot of bug type moves, AND, it shares the group with all the quiver dancers, bar lilligant.

Dammit, you are right, sandstorm only boosts rock pokemon's sp. def.

But flygon's attack is way better than his special attack.

The difference between its attack and special att. is not that big, so that doesn't mean it can't be a effective special attacker with special training, Mine is, and the line learns a lot of special moves.

Remember this is about moves that we find that Pokémon should know, based on what we know about them; not about what move set will benefit them most in competitive battles. Please keep all posts here on topic and support your views!

I guess what moves benefit pokemon in competitive battles is a criteria to assign moves, based in what we know about them, as is bringing attention to combinations with moves the pokemon has currently to support the suggested moves or the stats those pokemon have to take advantage of the moves, right?

 

[Ohman177]

But flygon's attack is way better than his special attack.

Remember this is about moves that we find that Pokémon should know, based on what we know about them; not about what move set will benefit them most in competitive battles. Please keep all posts here on topic and support your views!

You're right. Flygon could probably do with both of them. It would give more than one viable set and both make sense for him to have.

 

[Pokequaza]

Quiver Dance is known as ''Butterfly Dance'' in Japanese, hence why all the butterfly/moth Pokémon can learn it. Flygon is neither a butterfly nor moth, Quiver Dance wouldn't make any sense on a Flygon.

Lilligant, however, learns Quiver Dance, as well as Teeter Dance, and Petal Dance. Well, you can guess why she would be able to learn that.

 

[Ohman177]

Quiver Dance is known as ''Butterfly Dance'' in Japanese, hence why all the butterfly/moth Pokémon can learn it. Flygon is neither a butterfly nor moth, Quiver Dance wouldn't make any sense on a Flygon.

Lilligant, however, learns Quiver Dance, as well as Teeter Dance, and Petal Dance. Well, you can guess why she would be able to learn that.

I think if they felt like it they could make an antlion learn butterfly dance.

 

[professorlight]

Quiver Dance is known as ''Butterfly Dance'' in Japanese, hence why all the butterfly/moth Pokémon can learn it. Flygon is neither a butterfly nor moth, Quiver Dance wouldn't make any sense on a Flygon.

Lilligant, however, learns Quiver Dance, as well as Teeter Dance, and Petal Dance. Well, you can guess why she would be able to learn that.

And tail glow is "firefly light" in japanese, and phione (which is no firefly) learns it, so your argument is invalid (I always wanted to say that).

And if dancing is a theme for lilligant, which (not really) explains her being able to learn quiver dance, why meloetta (the singing/dancing pokemon) does not learn it? or dragon dance, for that matter? or petal dance, or swords dance? they fit meloetta a lot better than they do lilligant.

 

[Ohman177]

Quiver Dance is known as ''Butterfly Dance'' in Japanese, hence why all the butterfly/moth Pokémon can learn it. Flygon is neither a butterfly nor moth, Quiver Dance wouldn't make any sense on a Flygon.

Lilligant, however, learns Quiver Dance, as well as Teeter Dance, and Petal Dance. Well, you can guess why she would be able to learn that.

And tail glow is "firefly light" in japanese, and phione (which is no firefly) learns it, so your argument is invalid (I always wanted to say that).

And if dancing is a theme for lilligant, which (not really) explains her being able to learn quiver dance, why meloetta (the singing/dancing pokemon) does not learn it? or dragon dance, for that matter? or petal dance, or swords dance? they fit meloetta a lot better than they do lilligant.

The argument is completely valid. Phione and manaphy learn it because the tips of their hair/tail thing light up.

 

[PG24]

Seriously? Ferrothorn needs Rapid Spin.

You people are terrible for not even mentioning this. You should all feel ashamed.

 

[Frezgle]

Seriously? Ferrothorn needs Rapid Spin.

You people are terrible for not even mentioning this. You should all feel ashamed.

Better yet, there ought to be a move tutor than can teach Rapid Spin so a whole bunch of Pokemon that couldn't have it before can have it now. Anything to reduce the potency of entry hazards would be good in my book.

 

[leecario]

Seriously? Ferrothorn needs Rapid Spin.

You people are terrible for not even mentioning this. You should all feel ashamed.

And ferroseeds animation is literally rapid spinning