Discussion Lillie

2

21times

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Hello Beach Bums,

I have been tracking my usage of the new SUM draw support card Lillie. Overall, I am averaging 4.34 cards per draw in 79 times that it's been used. Here's the breakdown of how the various decks I run do with it:

Deck __ average __ count

Decidueye GX / Tauros GX __ 5.44 __ 9
Growlithe / Froslass / Volcanion EX __ 5.0 __ 2
Garchomp __ 4.67 __ 2
Ho-Oh EX / Dragonair __ 4.67 __ 3
Rainbow Road __ 4.5 __ 2
Darkrai EX / Dragonair __ 4.41 __ 39
Medicham __ 4.1 __ 10
Exploud __ 4 __ 1
Raichu / Ampharos __ 4 __ 1
Xerneas Break / Dragonair __ 3.0 __ 7
Greninja Break __ 2.5 __ 2

Obviously, it's much better for some decks than others. And I'm sorry that some of these decks have a very small sample size. I've been messing around with a lot of decks this month.
 
Keep it up; might make it easier for me to swallow I've been wrong if Lillie if I've got at least some solid data running contrary to what I expected.

Assuming I have been wrong. ;)
 
No you're not really wrong, it's probably only good in grass decks because there are so many insta play cards. Notice in my Darkrai / Dragonair deck, it's an average of a card less per play, in Medicham (which I also have Carbink in so it has some evolutions), it's a card and a half less. And in Greninja - even though it's a small sample size - it's really low, maybe not 2 cards per draw low, but it's not going to be anywhere close to 5 and might even be less than 4.

So yeah if you have a deck that doesn't hold cards, it's a 4 of, but in the majority of decks (and certainly all non grass evolution decks), it's probably a 1 of at best.
 
Just to update, I'm now averaging an insane 4.79 cards per draw in 111 plays:

Deck_average cards drawn_number of times Lillie was played

Damage Change Mewtwo_7_2
Decidueye Vileplume_6.5_8
Lurantis Vileplume_6_1
Tauros Hammers_5.66_3
Tauros Decidueye_5.52_17
Vespiquen_5.5_2
Darkrai Porygon_5_2
Growlith Froslass Volcanion_5_2
Garchomp_4.66_3
Ho-Oh_4.66_3
Darkrai Dragonair_4.57_45
Rainbow Road_4.5_2
Medicham_4.1_10
Lightning_4_1
Exploud_4_1
Xerneas Dragonair_3_7
Greninja_2.5_2
 
This is really intresting and nice to see how much have you been drawing cards with Lillie. I think I should add it to my Mewtwo deck! Thanks for this and keep it updated :)
 
Lillie seems like a good card, but not that good for this metagame. I think that when Tapu Lele comes, it will be a staple for almost any deck considering Lillie will be easily used in any first turn.
 
Thanks Mazo and Calcab. Just keep in mind that Lillie might struggle in Mewtwo because that's a deck that doesn't have as many insta play cards as most grass decks. I would guess that it might be around 4 or 4.5 cards but you'll definitely want to track it to see if it's worth it.
 
21times said:
Just to update, I'm now averaging an insane 4.79 cards per draw in 111 plays:

Deck_average cards drawn_number of times Lillie was played

Damage Change Mewtwo_7_2
Decidueye Vileplume_6.5_8
Lurantis Vileplume_6_1
Tauros Hammers_5.66_3
Tauros Decidueye_5.52_17
Vespiquen_5.5_2
Darkrai Porygon_5_2
Growlith Froslass Volcanion_5_2
Garchomp_4.66_3
Ho-Oh_4.66_3
Darkrai Dragonair_4.57_45
Rainbow Road_4.5_2
Medicham_4.1_10
Lightning_4_1
Exploud_4_1
Xerneas Dragonair_3_7
Greninja_2.5_2
Click to expand...
First of all, THANK YOU for your efforts and sharing this information; it is most appreciated. As I prepare for a Regional tournament, I will be tweaking a few deck choices and including Lillie in those decks where there is a "higher" Item count than I normally run.

In most of my Standard decks, I normally run:

1 Shaymin EX
1 Judge
1 Lillie
2 N
2 Prof. Kukui
3 Prof. Sycamore​

Some counts will be adjusted should I run more than 1 Shaymin EX and/or I use Stadium for supplemental card-draw support. Thoughts?

Btw, how many Lillie Supporters do you normally run along with the associated other card-draw Supporters?
 
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Good luck Tux hope it works out great for you.

And I will say that I think I am mostly playing it in the first turn. I have found that in mid game I generally prefer to go with the discard and solid seven from Sycamore, if I have a choice.

But I have also found that it's better than sycamore at the end of the game too - for example, there have been a number of times when I have maybe 10 cards left. If I sycamore, then I'll only have three cards left and run the risk of decking out. However, if I Lillie, I can still get at least a couple of cards but don't have to worry as much about completely running my deck down to zero.
 
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21times said:
No you're not really wrong...
Click to expand...

If your numbers don't drop so that the average yield is under three, I will be. Well, adjusted for individual deck performance. Many of your decks are ones that I was all "Did I read that right?" Not knocking them; I've never been good at predicting new, successful decks. I can brainstorm with the best of them, but I'll have a lot more misses than hits. If I wasn't focused on grinding for the Rewards Ladder, I might enjoy trying some of these out. XD

Calcab said:
Lillie seems like a good card, but not that good for this metagame. I think that when Tapu Lele comes, it will be a staple for almost any deck considering Lillie will be easily used in any first turn.
Click to expand...

How on earth did I miss this simple but effective combo? >_< Yeah, definitely going to have to give Lillie a try sooner or later, because once we have a good tutor for Supporters, there goes my big beef with her. Run just one or two, but reliably use her first turn. :)
 
The past couple of months I've been very focused on just a couple of meta decks, dedicating 100 or even 200 matches to a single deck. This month I've decided to completely go the other way and try a bunch of new, crazy stuff out. I'm at 29 different decks... which means I really haven't focused enough on any one deck to really get a good understanding of it. Next month I'll probably go heavy on Tauros Decidueye and Darkrai Dragonair as those were my two most successful decks this month. But it's been alright just kind of messing around with some of these, if you want some lists let me know, but most of them have win percentages in the 20's (or worse). Who knows, one of these might give you an idea that you hadn't previously thought of, set a spark that ignites a cool new idea for you.
 
Just to update, I'm now averaging 4.83 cards per draw in 142 plays:

Deck_average cards drawn_number of times Lillie was played

Damage Change Mewtwo_7_2
Decidueye Vileplume_6.5_8
Tauros Hammers_5.66_3
Vespiquen_5.5_2
Tauros Decidueye_5.43_37
Lurantis Vileplume_5.33_3
Darkrai Porygon_5_2
Lightning_5_3
Growlith, Froslass, Volcanion_5_2
Rainbow Road_5_5
Garchomp_4.66_3
Ho-Oh_4.66_3
Darkrai Dragonair_4.57_45
Exploud_4_1
Medicham_3.64_14
Xerneas' Dragonair_3_7
Greninja_2.5_2

Not a whole lot of changes since the last update, Tauros Decidueye decreased a small amount (0.09) but part of that might be because I noticed that a lot of times at the end of the game I might only have 7 or 10 cards left and I'll play Lillie just to get 2 or 3 more cards and not burn through my deck. I'm purposefully playing it just to get a small number of cards, so that might be bringing the average down a little. The other main mover was Medicham (with Carbink Break). He went down 0.46. This may serve as further evidence that Lillie might not be such a good play in evolution decks because they tend to hold cards.

Ok hope this helps!
 
I think I'll make this my final update: I've come down a little bit to 4.67 cards per draw. Pretty good, but I definitely believe that it's best in grass decks and other big basic decks that have more insta play cards and less evolutions. Breakdown is as follows:

Deck_average cards drawn_number of times Lillie was played

Damage Change Mewtwo_7_2
Decidueye Vileplume_6.5_8
Vespiquen_5.5_2
Decidueye Tauros_5.35_40
Lurantis_5.33_3
Rainbow Road_5_5
Darkrai Porygon_5_2
Raichu Ampharos_5_3
Growlith Froslass Volcanion_5_2
Ho-Oh_4.66_3
Garchomp_4.66_3
Darkrai's Dragonair_4.57_45
Tauros Hammers_4.5_16
Decidueye Meowstic_4.5_6
Weakness Box_4.14_7
Exploud_4_1
Decidueye Gengar_4_3
Sudowoodo_4_1
Medicham_3.64_14
Diancie 2_3.62_8
Xerneas' Dragonair_3_7
Greninja_2.5_2
Grand Total_4.67_183
 
I can't play it in my Pidgeot deck. I would get maybe two cards from it, assuming I don't get it on the first turn. As of now it favors decks that can drop a ton of cards but these decks would be much better off using Sycamore IMO. I like that some decks can see four cards with it though.
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
As of now it favors decks that can drop a ton of cards but these decks would be much better off using Sycamore IMO.
Click to expand...

crystal_pidgeot brings up a good point for this analysis... anytime Lillie draws six cards (outside of the first turn), it isn't to her credit; that means your hand was empty so Professor Sycamore effectively becomes "Draw seven cards." Drawing seven or eight cards through Lillie on the first turn still counts, though. S'why the raw numbers are only part of the story (though one we need, @21times).
 
Otaku said:
crystal_pidgeot brings up a good point for this analysis... anytime Lillie draws six cards (outside of the first turn), it isn't to her credit; that means your hand was empty so Professor Sycamore effectively becomes "Draw seven cards." Drawing seven or eight cards through Lillie on the first turn still counts, though. S'why the raw numbers are only part of the story (though one we need, @21times).
Click to expand...
I think we have to account into this the number of supporters that we have. Is there only 3 sycamore and x amount of lillies or is there 4 sycamores and x amount of lillies. Of course if your hand is basically only a vs seeker, you wouldn't choose lillie over sycamore from your discard pile. (assuming it's not first turn)

But if there was no opportunity to use sycamore, that would then put into a situation whether there was possibility of N or Lillie, which do we choose? Well it's situation dependent and i'm pretty tired right now so i don't want to bring up all the possible things to showcase why Lillie is sometimes the better choice.

I just want to asset here that just because you could draw 7 with sycamore instead of 6 with Lillie, it's not always an option and to better to showcase stats with usage of Lillie would be to also present what would happen if you used other draw supporters over it. Was there even an option to use them? Could there have been an option if a draw supporter was removed for the lillie? What would you have to sycamore away in this particular match up if you use that over Lillie? If you N over Lillie, do you give your opponent more cards to have a better set up?
 
Yes just looking at 4.67 doesn't give you the real story. The biggest problem is this: everyone hates it when we have to throw away a hand full of item cards, energy, and evolution pokemon because we absolutely have to use sycamore. The thing is - if your hand is full of cards, Lillie doesn't help you in that case either. I usually choose Sycamore over Lillie if I have both in my hand. But is it really better than Birch or N? There's no good answer here, all of the draw support cards available to us have significant flaws. I think it's probably only superior to N or Birch in grass decks and maybe a few big basic decks. It definitely doesn't supplant sycamore, but it might be a good alternative to Birch or N if you have the type of deck that can get at least 4.67 cards per draw.
 
Lillie is also great for any decks that use the rare candy method to try get there guys going instead of at least one professor sycamore in a deck build.
 
theprp30 said:
Lillie is also great for any decks that use the rare candy method to try get there guys going instead of at least one professor sycamore in a deck build.
Click to expand...

How so?

If I am trying to Evolve something via Rare Candy, then I need
  • The Basic Stage of the Pokémon in play and ready to Evolve
  • The Stage 2 form of the Pokémon in hand
  • Rare Candy
If you are trying to assemble this seemingly simple combo, then the piece in hand risks being discarded by Professor Sycamore... but also reduces the draw power of Lillie. This is just one of the little things the game does that hurts Evolutions. There isn't enough good, shuffle-and-draw Supporters to try your luck until you get Rare Candy and the Stage 2 in hand at the correct time, and the draw cards that don't shuffle or discard your hand don't draw enough cards to make it work.

If Lillie is doing the job for you, please, give us more details! I have been frustrated by this dilemma for a while and would much rather find out I was wrong about Lillie but able to better run dozens of other decks. ;)
 
Just an example but in a lunala/solgaleo deck that I run it works well now and once tapu lele comes out even better. I run 2 nest ball, 3 trainers mail, 3 rare candy, 4 cosmog, 2 lunala, 2 solgaleo, 2 shaymin, 4 ultra ball with other stuff. But a lot the times I'll get turn one either 1 or 2 of the base form and maybe a trainers mail/nest ball/ultra ball to to grab a rare candy and the other pair i need and now i don't want to use n or sycamore to get ride of what i already have so Lillie then comes in to play and if it is first turn I'm getting up to 8 cards to go with what I got and I'm set up and ready to go turn two to use solgaleo gx attack and really get things going. Of course if the opponent has an n then you might have to start over with luck of the draw but its just one example.
 
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