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Lurantis/Vileplume "Mantis Lock"

SnackeyG

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I've watched a lot of play testing for this type of set up and it seems to be nuts. It sets up so fast. The only part of the deck I feel unsure of is Leafeon. Any suggestions on what else to put there?

##Pokémon - 19

* 2 Shaymin-EX ROS 106
* 4 Fomantis SM 14
* 4 Lurantis-GX SM 15
* 1 Morelull SM 16
* 1 Shiinotic SM 17
* 2 Oddish AOR 1
* 2 Gloom AOR 2
* 2 Vileplume AOR 3
* 1 Leafeon EX

##Trainer Cards - 31

* 3 Professor Sycamore STS 114
* 2 Revitalizer GEN 70
* 2 Timer Ball SM 134
* 2 Acro Bike PRC 122
* 4 Forest of Giant Plants AOR 74
* 2 Level Ball AOR 76
* 4 Ultra Ball SM 161
* 3 Float Stone BKT 137
* 3 N NVI 101
* 2 Lysandre FLF 104
* 4 Trainers' Mail AOR 100

##Energy - 10

* 10 Grass Energy CL 88

Total Cards - 60

****** Deck List Generated by the Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******
 
I run Tauros not Leafeon.... I'm thinking about also incorporating Unown but don't know where it fits.... I'd run 4 Sycamore and another Acro bike and drop the two timer balls. You might want to drop one of the Lysandres as well for another acro or float stone.... If you have a 3rd Shaymin you might want to work it in, and I know in another post, there's a suggestion for a 2-3-3 Vileplume line (which makes sense to me to reduce the chance of starting Oddish).

I'm sure there'll be a LOT more videos on this soon. This deck is pretty broken.
 
This thread has been moved to the Deck Garage because the OP is looking for feedback on their completed decklist. If you have any questions, please contact me or any of the TCG Forum Staff privately.
 
I run Tauros not Leafeon.... I'm thinking about also incorporating Unown but don't know where it fits.... I'd run 4 Sycamore and another Acro bike and drop the two timer balls. You might want to drop one of the Lysandres as well for another acro or float stone.... If you have a 3rd Shaymin you might want to work it in, and I know in another post, there's a suggestion for a 2-3-3 Vileplume line (which makes sense to me to reduce the chance of starting Oddish).

I'm sure there'll be a LOT more videos on this soon. This deck is pretty broken.

As I said in the other thread, the idea of a 2-3-3 line up literally makes 0% when it comes to RNG itself. I won't get in to the full math here, but by running 1 less of any of the line, you still can only, at maximum, complete 2 of the line. So, even if you only theoretically prize 1 of the Gloom/Vileplume, you can still only complete 2 of the Vileplume lines maximum, meaning that 3rd Gloom/Vileplume becomes a dead draw.

If you honestly want to start Oddish less, just run a full line less. It doesn't change the math and you still have 2 open slots for whatever card you desire, which would fill that spot for RNG chances of Prizing Cards. I honestly wish he hadn't suggested that idea because it's flawed when it comes to basic Probability Mathematics.

Also, since I wrote a full article on it, I'll suggest a couple things. If, for some reason, Vileplume becomes inconsistent as a general, you can always run GarboLock instead. It's just as effective in a lot of match-ups and will save you some spots overall (and is less wombo-y and allows you to run better Control Stadiums and a whole bunch of other reasons). If you want to stick to Vileplume for the Item Lock specifically, however, I would highly suggest running 3 Shaymin EX, dropping Leafeon EX, and playing 4 Professor Sycamore and probably 4 N (though, you can argue a bit on the Supporter count, I would play 4 of at least 1 of them since you'll be Item Locking most of your games or at a minimum should be). Also, consider that every Trainers' Mail, Revitalizer, and realistically every Ball (though, I will not count these towards this next point) become dead under VileLock, which is my main issue with this deck right now. You rely on a wombo with a card that requires set up in the Discard Pile and most of that set up comes from things like Ultra Ball. That's why I personally think Garbodor is a better choice, but I suppose that's besides the point. So long as you keep in mind that once you have VileLock in place, you'll most likely be running in to dead draws and therefore, you must set up Lurantis GX acceleration prior to the Lock, you should be fine. That's also why 4 Sycamore is important, because at a minimum, he allows you to discard Grass Energy with Vileplume out.

I hope this makes a bit more sense when it comes to the deck's structure and how it should play out. I really do feel that, while Item Lock is a very powerful tool right now, it really shouldn't be considered Top Tier right now. Still, we'll see how well the Pros drive the deck in the next Major.

-Asmer
 
Tauros is a nice add in just in case you prize a Lurantis or have to discard one early in the game and don't have a chance to use revitalizer to pull it back. Plus, it doesn't have weakness to Volcanion. If I start seeing a ton of Volcanion I might even run 2.

I run 2-3-3 Vileplume and it's great. Asmer, you are undoubtedly a better player than I am and more experienced, but you're missing the point when you say it makes zero sense. With level balls and ultra balls, it's very easy to find Oddish, and with only 2 of him, I'm less likely to have to start him up top.

As for needing more than 1 Vileplume, it's pretty much common sense that you're never going to need more than 1. Obviously, your opponent will almost never Lysandre and ko a Vileplume because 1) that's damage he's wasting on a non attacker and 2) that would instantly allow you to use all of the item cards in your hand.

I will say you are 100% correct that 8 days from now we will unquestionably have the answer to this. And you are more than welcome to say I told you so to me if no Lurantis Lock decks finish in the top 8.

Right now, though, I'm betting there will be muliple Lurantis Vileplume decks in that top cut.
 
Tauros is a nice add in just in case you prize a Lurantis or have to discard one early in the game and don't have a chance to use revitalizer to pull it back. Plus, it doesn't have weakness to Volcanion. If I start seeing a ton of Volcanion I might even run 2.

I run 2-3-3 Vileplume and it's great. Asmer, you are undoubtedly a better player than I am and more experienced, but you're missing the point when you say it makes zero sense. With level balls and ultra balls, it's very easy to find Oddish, and with only 2 of him, I'm less likely to have to start him up top.

As for needing more than 1 Vileplume, it's pretty much common sense that you're never going to need more than 1. Obviously, your opponent will almost never Lysandre and ko a Vileplume because 1) that's damage he's wasting on a non attacker and 2) that would instantly allow you to use all of the item cards in your hand.

I will say you are 100% correct that 8 days from now we will unquestionably have the answer to this. And you are more than welcome to say I told you so to me if no Lurantis Lock decks finish in the top 8.

Right now, though, I'm betting there will be muliple Lurantis Vileplume decks in that top cut.

I'll do my best to explain what I meant, but in all honesty...

but you're missing the point when you say it makes zero sense.
You saying this bothers me a lot.
First, one of the things I feel is lacking in the understanding "department" is the idea of maximizing the ability to run Vileplume lines. What your argument is, at least from what I'm assuming and correct me if I'm wrong, is that if you reduce the number of Oddish for space reasons, you can run a more consistent line than if you were to run a 2-2-2 or potentially even a 3-3-3 (though, this would make 100% zero logical sense because 2 is, quite simply, less than 3, meaning the consistency naturally becomes smaller by basic mathematical properties of Probability itself). So, we'll compare a 2-2-2 line to a 2-3-3 line.

So, if you are to run a 2-2-2 line, you will have a consistent base percentile of drawing in to each. That makes sense to both of us, I would assume. In comparison to a 2-3-3, however, you do have a higher percentile of drawing in to Gloom and Vileplume, which makes sense to both of us as well. Except... there's one problem with this whole thing...

We're playing Pokemon where you need all 3 Pieces in order to make a complete line.

This was my initial problem with whatshisname's argument originally. Yes, you have a higher percentage of drawing Gloom and Vileplume, but considering that A. Those two spaces can be used much more efficiently for other cards/techs than dropping a single Oddish down from 3 to 2 (and, as you said, most games only 1 line is needed, but not all games and that is a very bad mistake to make when you're preparing competitively), and B. more importantly, if you for some reason are not able to find that Oddish, you are now stuck with more dead draws off of Gloom/Vileplume than you would be otherwise. That is why a 2-3-3 Line is inferior than any 2-2-2 or even 3-2-2 line. You risk drawing in to things you simply do not need after a point and when it comes to something like this deck, which is actually combo-oriented (even though in some regards it seems like it isn't), it simply should not be risking drawing deck for what may be at best a small consistent boost if you are lucky enough to draw in to 1 of the 2 Oddish you actually play. Also, there are plenty of Opponents who would be willing to OHKO a Vileplume off a Lysandre play because it opens their full Item selection back up. Granted, it honestly depends on the situation your Opponent feels they are in, but nonetheless, I honestly find it disheartening that you would fathom that not being an option...

Also, just to make a case on finding Oddish... why would you be so worried about Gloom and Vileplume and run them at 3 each when you make the exact argument that Oddish is easily searchable? After all, Gloom is searchable by the exact same cards that you mentioned and, while Vileplume must rely on Ultra Ball or Shiinotic if you desire to run it, it still has plenty of options to work with. Plus, as I stated before, if you lose 2 Oddish at any point, your line is dead. There is literally no reason to run more Evolutions than your Basics with the exception of Greninja, in which Frogadier actually becomes the "Basic" once he gets off his Clone attack (meaning you can run 2-3 Froakie alongside Talonflame if you play that variant).

As far as Lurantis/Vileplume being competitive... I feel it's Top Tier. I'll state that right now. I personally prefer Garbodor because I do feel that running 2 Stage 1s in comparison to a Stage 1 and a Stage 2 is a bit more consistent and, personally, I like consistency, but that doesn't take away from the power of Vileplume itself. The deck concept is great and I would expect BOTH variants to T8 at some point (because let's face it... Garbodor works well in the deck and is still a mighty strong card).

I hope this doesn't come across as horribly harsh, but it does bother me when people attempt to use statistical data that simply doesn't work out in a game like this. It only convinces the masses to do things that really don't work out and causes a massive illusion which doesn't help anyone in the long run. Feel free to disagree with my points if you will, but I would take it to PM if you do feel so strongly.

-Asmer
 
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And my problem with many people's approach to this game is that there is virtually NO statistical analysis behind major fundamental philosophical decisions in the game. Compare this to baseball where they have TOO many statistics. It seems like every you tube video is I think or I feel. There are no numbers behind any deck design decisions.

I say go test it. Play 10 matches with a 2-3-3 line. If you grow green toenails or one of your arms falls off, go back to a straight 3 line. Objectively look at the results. Don't let feelings obscure things just be objective.

As for Vileplume vs Garb, we'll find out in 8 days.
 
Ok so I'm going to drop Leafeon for N. Shaymin would be nice, but I really don't want to drop the cash for a third one. Thanks for the responses.
 
And my problem with many people's approach to this game is that there is virtually NO statistical analysis behind major fundamental philosophical decisions in the game.

First off, this is a literal contradiction to itself. There's a large reason that Philosophy and Statistics typically don't go hand in hand, though I will say that I still have already stated that I recognized that numerically, you increase your chances of drawing in to Gloom/Vileplume with a 2-3-3, but that the idea is simply foolish considering every other counterargument I made previously.

Compare this to baseball where they have TOO many statistics. It seems like every youtube video is I think or I feel. There are no numbers behind any deck design decisions.

You also haven't provided any solid evidence as to why a 2-3-3 line is better than any other line besides the literal "I think" or "I feel" mentality. If you can honestly provide multiple scenarios where having this line is either necessary or majorly superior, then by all means. I don't think there's a single person who would mind looking at that data and then trying it out. But, you have not and have made no true argument for anyone to trust you on this.

I say go test it. Play 10 matches with a 2-3-3 line. If you grow green toenails or one of your arms falls off, go back to a straight 3 line. Objectively look at the results. Don't let feelings obscure things just be objective.

At this point, I start to get the feeling that this is less about actual logical thinking in the game of Pokemon TCG and more about a true lack of understanding in both the game itself and in healthy argumentative debating. I've literally looked at this idea from an objective perspective. I've played Vileplume for quite a while as well (as a matter of fact, one of my first lists on this very site was Regice/Vileplume, or at least it should have been, unless I forgot to put it up... I digress). I understand both the ebb and flow of consistency, playing with both Vileplume and Forest of Giant Plants, tampering with numbers with both that very old list, Vespiquen/Vileplume, and even Walls to some extent. This isn't a new concept to me and this quite frankly, as I stated somewhere in this post, if you had a more sound argument based around A. the tools we have in this game when it came to increasing consistency and B. a way to prove that, given the Evolution mechanic itself, running a 2-3-3 line up is absolutely 100% more beneficial than any other line up (keeping in mind point A), then I would be inclined to agree with you.

But, quite frankly, you have not. I haven't seen you attempt to use any form of basic logic, even to an extent of basic RNG logic. I have. I haven't seen any attempt of actual convincing when it comes to why it's superior to a 3-3-3 line or even a 2-2-2 line. I have, on multiple instances, discussed why it's inferior to both. And, quite honestly, using falsified information to determine a deck build is just as bad as "feeling". You're only limiting yourself in ways that are simply unnecessary. That was my whole point. It has nothing against you or the original poster of this idea, but as a person who honestly likes helping this community out, I do what I can to provide information that is both logical and sound in a way that is simple for individuals to understand and to read things like...

If you grow green toenails or one of your arms falls off, go back to a straight 3 line.

...makes me both uneasy about the state of the community itself and, quite frankly, sad that there was a lack of understanding as a whole.

As for Vileplume vs Garb, we'll find out in 8 days.

We'll see if anyone plays a Garbodor Variant right now. After all, while it's a fairly safe bet, people like to wait at times. Still, I wouldn't be surprised to see any form of Lurantis GX topping. The card itself is very strong and I feel that it'll take at least a spot, still.


Regardless, I feel that, unless there are honestly better forms of proof to your argument, this conversation is going to go no where. I apologize to you, @SnackeyG , for all of this, but I do hope that you can use a lot of this information for future deck building. After all, it's a lot of good information about how RNG works on a very basic level and whatnot, so utilize what you can from it lol. :) Also, good luck with the deck!

-Asmer
 
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