News Lysandre's Trump Card Has Been Banned

[Kietharr]

Lol you realize if they banned forest instead of shiftry forest would have never seen a day of legality

It shouldn't have been printed, so it would have been better for it to not have a day of legality. TPCI had to choose which card to ban to get rid of Shiftry Donk and they chose the 'least restrictive' option like they did when they banned Archeops. They found that was a mistake when FOGP produced another deck with a disproportionately high chance to win the game if it wins the coinflip with Deciduplume. This wasn't going to stop happening, and was going to get even more dangerous with Archeops banned since you wouldn't have to deal with the counterlock.

I mean if they didn't ban it now, they'd have to take it into account when designing any grass evolution from here on out or risk breaking expanded every time they introduced a good new grass stage 2.

 

[Fayld]

Those two cards were on the top of my list. I would have also added Hypnotoxic Laser, Trev and Battle Compresser on that list but this is a start I guess. It seems they want a fast format without the locks.

I think they could have had just as much impact without affecting as many cards by banning Trev, Archeops, and Vileplume. Those bans would have allowed strategies like Toad / Owls, Lurantis, and a few others to work while still stopping the T1 Item Lock.

My guess (and it is definitely a guess) is that the new Venusaur (I think it is a Venusaur) that doubles [G] energy for each attachment is what put the nail in the coffin for FoGP. Basically, that thing would allow strategies like M Beedrill or M Venusaur to happen T1 meaning you opponent could be paralyzed and poisoned right off the bat AND be able to stream it. Yeah there are new toys like Guzma to help you get out of that lock. But that is part of the strategy too. I keep spamming paralysis, eventually, you aren't getting out of it. It would be a harder hitting version of Deck and Cover Accelgor and that card infuriates a ton of people.

I think Lasers and Compressor are both fine. I don't think Trev is fine and I think once we see Necrozma GX + Lele promo hit the format that a Trevenant ban will happen. Without Necrozma GX + Lele promo, Trev is powerful. With them, it might be game breaking. The only saving grace is that the deck still might brick more than it should.

 

[AuraJackle]

It shouldn't have been printed, so it would have been better for it to not have a day of legality. TPCI had to choose which card to ban to get rid of Shiftry Donk and they chose the 'least restrictive' option like they did when they banned Archeops. They found that was a mistake when FOGP produced another deck with a disproportionately high chance to win the game if it wins the coinflip with Deciduplume. This wasn't going to stop happening, and was going to get even more dangerous with Archeops banned since you wouldn't have to deal with the counterlock.

I mean if they didn't ban it now, they'd have to take it into account when designing any grass evolution from here on out or risk breaking expanded every time they introduced a good new grass stage 2.

I agree that with with cards like vileplume and decidueye forest was made broken I was just pointing out a fact. Honestly forest would be fine if not for those first turn lock down plays every type should have a unique gimmick that could make them powerful but first turn item lock has always been the most unfair way to win first turn outside of strait up donking of course

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

FoGPs wasn't banned because at the time, it was a new card and they wanted people to play it. Shiftry was just the scapegoat .

I think they could have had just as much impact without affecting as many cards by banning Trev, Archeops, and Vileplume. Those bans would have allowed strategies like Toad / Owls, Lurantis, and a few others to work while still stopping the T1 Item Lock.

My guess (and it is definitely a guess) is that the new Venusaur (I think it is a Venusaur) that doubles [G] energy for each attachment is what put the nail in the coffin for FoGP. Basically, that thing would allow strategies like M Beedrill or M Venusaur to happen T1 meaning you opponent could be paralyzed and poisoned right off the bat AND be able to stream it. Yeah there are new toys like Guzma to help you get out of that lock. But that is part of the strategy too. I keep spamming paralysis, eventually, you aren't getting out of it. It would be a harder hitting version of Deck and Cover Accelgor and that card infuriates a ton of people.

I think Lasers and Compressor are both fine. I don't think Trev is fine and I think once we see Necrozma GX + Lele promo hit the format that a Trevenant ban will happen. Without Necrozma GX + Lele promo, Trev is powerful. With them, it might be game breaking. The only saving grace is that the deck still might brick more than it should.

Expanded is too big right now and allow a card like that means they can't do anything interesting with future Grass types because they could break Expanded Grass decks. No deck should have access to instant Evolution. Imagine if Greninja BREAK had access to a card like FoGP but for Water types? I don't like lock decks and I don't want them to exist.

I agree that with with cards like vileplume and decidueye forest was made broken I was just pointing out a fact. Honestly forest would be fine if not for those first turn lock down plays every type should have a unique gimmick that could make them powerful but first turn item lock has always been the most unfair way to win first turn outside of strait up donking of course

FoGP was made for Vileplume. They were both in the same set so I find it hard to believe they were an oversight. There isn't a case where I can say FoGP was ever good for the game. I played in a format where Broken Time Space existed, and that was a FoGP for all Pokemon and that was still broken. Excluding it to one type was never a good idea.

 

[AuraJackle]

FoGP was made for Vileplume. They were both in the same set so I find it hard to believe they were an oversight. There isn't a case where I can say FoGP was ever good for the game. I played in a format where Broken Time Space existed, and that was a FoGP for all Pokemon and that was still broken. Excluding it to one type was never a good idea.

I'm aware it was made at the same time but so was sceptile and vespiqueen they made fogp as a way to bring grass types into a format where fire had a really strong supporter in blacksmith. They went wrong with vileplume and to some extent decidueye. As for having an exclusive bts to one type there's nothing wrong with it(not to mention they would have to ban the crobat line after 2 sets) because as I said every type should get that once every 4 set instant deck inclusion card. Saying grass shouldn't get forest is like saying water shouldn't get a patch,fire a volcanion,phsycic and fairy a transfer,or other such generational type benefit. Those benefits are what makes Pokemon such an interesting card came you can't just complain that one type has a strong support when plenty of others get one as well

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I'm aware it was made at the same time but so was sceptile and vespiqueen they made fogp as a way to bring grass types into a format where fire had a really strong supporter in blacksmith. They went wrong with vileplume and to some extent decidueye. As for having an exclusive bts to one type there's nothing wrong with it(not to mention they would have to ban the crobat line after 2 sets) because as I said every type should get that once every 4 set instant deck inclusion card. Saying grass shouldn't get forest is like saying water shouldn't get a patch,fire a volcanion,phsycic and fairy a transfer,or other such generational type benefit. Those benefits are what makes Pokemon such an interesting card came you can't just complain that one type has a strong support when plenty of others get one as well

No self respecting game designer would put something that can lock an opponent out of the game in the same set as a card that would allow them to instantly get it out or allow such a thing to exist in their flagship format. Decidueye has nothing to do with it and just inherited FoGP. Cards like BTS shouldn't exist for any type because this means you run the risk of breaking said type and would not be able to make interesting cards with that type. FoGP isn't the only card that does this. Archie and Maxie do the exact same thing, but for three types. The cards are harder to use but the same thing exist. This is why they decided to ban Archeops because it was a unintentional card combo.

I also think Trainer based Energy acceleration shouldn't exist. Volcanion-EX shouldn't exist as it is and for the same reasons mentioned above because such support risk breaking the type, which Volcanion does for Fire. Decidueye doesn't break the Grass type and Energy moving effects don't break their represented types. This isn't complaining, it's looking at what is balance, something this game desperately needs. There is nothing wrong with giving types support that makes them unique but you can't sit here and tell me that Kiawe is a good and balanced card.

 

[Otaku]

I think they could have had just as much impact without affecting as many cards by banning Trev, Archeops, and Vileplume. Those bans would have allowed strategies like Toad / Owls, Lurantis, and a few others to work while still stopping the T1 Item Lock.

Future proofing. As the Expanded Format has yet to experience an actual rotation (loss of sets), instead of banning specific cards - some of which are quite balanced without the help - they went with the facillitator. After all, they print a card like Vileplume (AOR) kind of often; Dark Vileplume was the first like it, and we've got a couple similar examples. They might release years apart, but it adds up. Years in the future, they'll probably release yet another Vileplume that messes with your Trainers, and once again, Forest of Giant Plants would "break" it. FoGP requires all Pokémon which Evolve from a Grass-Type be preemptively "nerfed".

 

[pokeraider123456]

i had decks depended on fogp, since GX and EX, are pretty much very difficult to take care of, and fogp, allows those pokemon to be killable. i can see archeops preventing alot of gxs from evolving, but GX s are very difficult to get rid of in a match, if you cant kill it in one hit.

 

[Fayld]

Expanded is too big right now and allow a card like that means they can't do anything interesting with future Grass types because they could break Expanded Grass decks. No deck should have access to instant Evolution. Imagine if Greninja BREAK had access to a card like FoGP but for Water types? I don't like lock decks and I don't want them to exist.

Future proofing. As the Expanded Format has yet to experience an actual rotation (loss of sets), instead of banning specific cards - some of which are quite balanced without the help - they went with the facillitator. After all, they print a card like Vileplume (AOR) kind of often; Dark Vileplume was the first like it, and we've got a couple similar examples. They might release years apart, but it adds up. Years in the future, they'll probably release yet another Vileplume that messes with your Trainers, and once again, Forest of Giant Plants would "break" it. FoGP requires all Pokémon which Evolve from a Grass-Type be preemptively "nerfed".

Right, but Ocean of Monstrous Creatures doesn't exist and as long as Greninja is around, I don't think it ever will. TBH, I don't anticipate them making another card like this for a very long time specifically because of what both of you are talking about. It is the same reason why no fighting type pokemon has truly been worth anything in a while. They make them weaker because Strong energy exits. It is the same reason why water types that have come out in SUM all have such ridiculous energy requirements to be effective. They did the same thing with Lightning type energy costs for fairly uninspired attacks as well because the assumption is that they have Magnezone in Standard (which is awful btw) and Eels in Expanded. My point is that they preemptively nerf every type that gets a powerful new card. Unfortunately, once you remove the powerful card from the equation or the "powerful card doesn't work" as in the case of Magnezone, you are left with a type that underwhelms and doesn't get quality representation in competitive decks.

Grass may survive this purge because they had the foresight to create Bulu and possibly Golisipod (though I question whether a 2 shot pokemon can handle the upcoming meta). That said, Decidueye is probably dead as an archetype...especially in Expanded. Lurantis takes a massive hit as well and may be completely dead as well after this. Both of these could have thrived with different partners and now neither really gets a chance to do so and that is truly unfortunate because both are great cards if given the proper support. It also kills future strategies in expanded that would have been fun and will likely never see the light of day now...like M Beedrill + the new Venusaur. That could have been amazing. Now it will probably only be alright and is unlikely to ever become a thing.

I know that I am in the minority here, but I don't think the issue was ever FoGP. It is that Pokemon continues to create these cards as Grass types when they could just as easily create a stage 2 lock card using a different type. They could have just as easily created an ability like the one Shiftry has in a different type. I would argue they *should* do both. But they didn't. I think @crystal_pidgeot is probably right when suggesting that they created FoGP for Vileplume. Well, that was clearly a mistake. Unfortunately, they just took a giant nerf bat to the rest of the type rather than simply removing a single pokemon and only impacting a couple of decks. Overall, I think banning FoGP goes too far and I think Grass is going to be nonexistent in Expanded for several sets going forward. They didn't have to go that route, but they did and several great cards and many good but underutilized cards won't see play in the competitive environment as a result.

 

[blahblahbal]

I see what you all are saying, what with TPCi wanting a slower format. But... Why then are they STILL printing things like Darkrai-GX, Tauros-GX, Drampa-GX... Shall I continue? No? Okay.

I don't understand why they banned FoGP. I mean, sure it speeds up a game. Sure it allows locks. But they're missing an important factor: All of the possible counters. All of the possible decks that could be made to circumvent lock decks. They're removing creativity for another form of it, I guess.

Oh well. I just don't like the ban because a deck I use in casual play on TCGO with a friend uses FoGP :/.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

To be fair, I think the Colorless type is the only type in the TCG that should have such a card as FoGP considering how subpar the entire type has been. I don't think there has ever been a Colorless Pokemon with such a dominating Ability. The only one I could think of was Pidgeot from FRLG and maybe Stoutland but even then it wouldn't be any better.

They just need to be careful about how they make cards. I would love if the types did something unique within that type. Right now, they all do everything and just from a support standpoint, Fire, Dark and Fairy are broken right now with Water being borderline.

I see what you all are saying, what with TPCi wanting a slower format. But... Why then are they STILL printing things like Darkrai-GX, Tauros-GX, Drampa-GX... Shall I continue? No? Okay.

I don't understand why they banned FoGP. I mean, sure it speeds up a game. Sure it allows locks. But they're missing an important factor: All of the possible counters. All of the possible decks that could be made to circumvent lock decks. They're removing creativity for another form of it, I guess.

Oh well. I just don't like the ban because a deck I use in casual play on TCGO with a friend uses FoGP :/.

I for one would like it if they stopped making Darkrai cards. It's why I favored Evolutions-On because it removes Darkrai-EX from the game. There s nothing wrong with Tauros-GX. It's meant to discourage reckless attack, which ironically deals with early game Darkrai-EX attacks and noting is wrong with Drampa-GX at all.

What I don't understand is why you don't see anything wrong with FoGP? You say banning the card removes creativity when it reality, the existence of the card removed creativity from the game. There isn't a counter to a turn one Vileplume when you go second. There isn't one if you go second as well. They banned the card because it removes creativity and forces people to play a deck designed to beat it while being weak to everything else.

 

[Otaku]

I don't understand why they banned FoGP. I mean, sure it speeds up a game. Sure it allows locks. But they're missing an important factor: All of the possible counters. All of the possible decks that could be made to circumvent lock decks. They're removing creativity for another form of it, I guess.

No, they aren't. I've said it before, just because something can be countered, doesn't mean it is properly balanced. Consider what it does to fundamental game mechanics, as well as specific combos. In this instance, countering Forest of Giant Plants required... what countered it again? While you can discard it, that always takes place after your opponent has had access to it for at least part of his or her turn. Countering Abilities means sacrificing your own, and accessing those counters can vary from tricky to improbable while under Item lock. Even if one thinks these are sufficient, then one has to consider what it does to the game as a whole; if I can smack down the Abilities in a deck like Decidueye-GX/Vileplume, what does that do to other Ability focused decks? Same for exploiting the Fire Weakness.

 

[Vexen_IV]

I can understand FOG, but Archeops as well? Not sure I agree with that. But then I really don't play Expanded anyway since I prefer Standard format tournaments.

It was a needed ban as GX's are more than likely going to be played in Expanded as well, and as such a single card that prevents you from playing your main attacker/support is crippling. And its not like you can just silent lab it, you have to run a supporter that will either worsen your already horrible position or put you behind as you won't be able to draw or set up as much as your opponent.

 

[Fayld]

It was a needed ban as GX's are more than likely going to be played in Expanded as well, and as such a single card that prevents you from playing your main attacker/support is crippling. And its not like you can just silent lab it, you have to run a supporter that will either worsen your already horrible position or put you behind as you won't be able to draw or set up as much as your opponent.

Agree with this. You can't really create a meta centered around evolutions and have a counter that shuts down evolving and can be achieved T1.

 

[dollyholly]

I used Yanmega Break with a Noivern Break line. It was pretty dope.

 

[jbcheshire]

Honestly, I don't know why TPCi doesn't do away with Expanded tournaments. When players need those older cards to compete, Pokemon is not making any money off the secondary market where those cards are usually sold. Focus on Standard and reprint some of the more "expensive" staple cards in some kind of special packing and then they can make more money. They could also do that with some of the Expanded cards too, but I really don't care about Expanded because I've already played those sets. I am more interested in the current stuff.

Anyway, just my 2cents worth.

 

[Otaku]

Honestly, I don't know why TPCi doesn't do away with Expanded tournaments. When players need those older cards to compete, Pokemon is not making any money off the secondary market where those cards are usually sold. Focus on Standard and reprint some of the more "expensive" staple cards in some kind of special packing and then they can make more money. They could also do that with some of the Expanded cards too, but I really don't care about Expanded because I've already played those sets. I am more interested in the current stuff.

Anyway, just my 2cents worth.

I am glad you brought this up, as there are answers, but they aren't always obvious.

1) Perceived value - As the powers-that-be can't or won't clean up the Unlimited Format, this becomes a way to keep people from freaking out over buying TCG cards that have an "expiration" date. Some of us are willing to accept "Right, I'm mostly paying for initial game development costs and Organized Play for about two years." but some aren't. I'll add that the secondary market can affect the primary market; even with Expanded threatening to become "Unlimited Format 2.0", it can take the sting out of spending $200 on one of the current strongest decks if it at least remains a little bit competitive there.

2) TPCi (with permission from the higher-ups) actually can re-release older cards; Battle Arena Decks are just that. Thanks to the Alternate Printing concept, they now have another way of profiting off of older cards. I'd love for this to also be used for errata, myself...

 

[Fayld]

I am glad you brought this up, as there are answers, but they aren't always obvious.

1) Perceived value - As the powers-that-be can't or won't clean up the Unlimited Format, this becomes a way to keep people from freaking out over buying TCG cards that have an "expiration" date. Some of us are willing to accept "Right, I'm mostly paying for initial game development costs and Organized Play for about two years." but some aren't. I'll add that the secondary market can affect the primary market; even with Expanded threatening to become "Unlimited Format 2.0", it can take the sting out of spending $200 on one of the current strongest decks if it at least remains a little bit competitive there.

2) TPCi (with permission from the higher-ups) actually can re-release older cards; Battle Arena Decks are just that. Thanks to the Alternate Printing concept, they now have another way of profiting off of older cards. I'd love for this to also be used for errata, myself...

Also dont forget that a lot of us prefer the expanded format. It allows for a far wider range of deck building ideas to flourish without completely overwhelming the standard format.

I also wish they would print new cards with updated rules like you said. That would solve a lot of issues.

 

[Otaku]

I also wish they would print new cards with updated rules like you said. That would solve a lot of issues.

Yeah. Don't think they will, though, based on some easy, obvious solutions like just printing a card named "Professor" with the "Discard your hand and draw 7 cards." effect and the original Professor Oak artwork in XY: Evolutions. Then issue an errata for Professor Juniper, Professor Sycamore, and Professor Oak so that they are now named "Professor". This

• Shakes up Unlimited
• Eliminated the need for an entire, special rule
• Creates an option to create Alternate Art prints of any previous "professor" character

If that sounds too radical, then any of the four releases of Professor Sycamore were opportunities to do the same thing with just him and Professor Juniper; no chance to the Unlimited Format, but the other two benefits still apply. Yes, I've said this before, but so far no one has given me a good reason why the powers-that-be didn't do this. I mean, the second, less extensive option was no more work for them and no more confusing for players than the actual, special rule for not running Professor Juniper and Professor Sycamore in the same deck. @_@

 

[Fayld]

Yeah. Don't think they will, though, based on some easy, obvious solutions like just printing a card named "Professor" with the "Discard your hand and draw 7 cards." effect and the original Professor Oak artwork in XY: Evolutions. Then issue an errata for Professor Juniper, Professor Sycamore, and Professor Oak so that they are now named "Professor". This

• Shakes up Unlimited
• Eliminated the need for an entire, special rule
• Creates an option to create Alternate Art prints of any previous "professor" character

If that sounds too radical, then any of the four releases of Professor Sycamore were opportunities to do the same thing with just him and Professor Juniper; no chance to the Unlimited Format, but the other two benefits still apply. Yes, I've said this before, but so far no one has given me a good reason why the powers-that-be didn't do this. I mean, the second, less extensive option was no more work for them and no more confusing for players than the actual, special rule for not running Professor Juniper and Professor Sycamore in the same deck. @_@

I have always thought this was a good idea personally because I find the need for a rule that *most* people don't know and likely wouldn't know without someone else helping them makes the game more confusing, not less. I honestly think the practice of releasing the same card with a different name is ridiculous anyway. I get that they want relevant names that newer players might recognize from the show / video games, but if they did something like the difference between Lillie and Bianca, suddenly both are playable. I mean, you could technically play Hau, Cheren, and Tierno together too because the effects aren't deemed "too game breaking" to play 12 total copies if you chose to do so. All that said, even that is silly.

Dunno, something as simple as "Professor" with an errata that specifically states (Professor cannot be played with Professor Sycamore, Professor Oak, or Professor Juniper) or something like that would be a better approach than what we have currently.