Finished Mafia 53: Twilight's Kingdom

[roz_the_eevee]

I'm not gonna defend cause you want to vote a role for saying that it can interact with dead. Lel.

It's to the point of being ridiculous.
You don't even scumread me. You just vote for sake of voting, so I can't defend here.

 

[Scattered mind]

I'm not gonna defend cause you want to vote a role for saying that it can interact with dead. Lel.

It's to the point of being ridiculous.
You don't even scumread me. You just vote for sake of voting, so I can't defend here.

You refuse to deny you are the indie. There is nothing more to scumhunt here.

 

[Scattered mind]

Lel

 

[Celever]

I think you're wrong; as scum it's all a numbers and survival and mislynches game, with indie as a secondary concern. As town, knowing everybody against you is your primary concern. Knowing about the indie is therefore a helpful step.

Then we should have other players share their thoughts because clearly we disagree on a fundamental playstyle level. Either way, don't ask about the indie, @Professor_jplap , unless you hear otherwise. Literally the reason why we started voting for him at all was because he asked about the indie and we all thought that was a scummy thing to do. So I'm sorry if you disagree with the rest of the town, NP, but sometimes when your opinion is such a minority, there is a reason for that.

Not when Jplap has to answer a question about the indie but no you don't get that do you.

Nono I get that, but see I'm still considering the possibility that jplap could be town. We've all jumped the gun and said he's definitely mafia, and he's definitely a strong Day 1 lead, but he could still be town. And so I'd rather that we, if he is town, use his ability to advantage the town more than the mafia. If he is mafia, then no matter what we have him ask it advantages the mafia more, because we either ask about the indie, which helps mafia more, or we ask him a question he already knows so he's free to use the night to get some dirt on the town. This is exactly the reason why we wanted to lynch him, before eevee decided to dive in front of him and take the bullet.

And your defense of him is still very scummy because you've done a complete 180 not only in stance but also in content. Originally your defense of him was "his ability is too crucial for us to pass up on; it's super important that we keep him around because his ability is good", and that's turned into barely being able to think of a question for his ability that isn't godawful. Like, you're fixated on the indie question, which everyone else says is bad, and while Mariano's question about mason chat is a good alternative, if jplap is mafia, as I think it was you pointed out, if he's mafia he can just give a real WIFOMy answer anyway. So you've gone from saying he has to live because his ability is so good to know voting for him because the "game state changed"? Yeah right?

Lol @ very confident toneread. His read was game state, not tone. Mariano was tone. Gamestate has changed and I hated Nick's vote. This vote sticks (after which I'd switch to eevee) until we firmly get a plan in place for his action that he has to follow (note he's not the scummiest player in the game but I'd rather flip him than Mariano since his flip has a lot better info at this point and eevee is eevee). One for if eevee isn't indie (in which we force him to ask if indie is harmful or not) and one other question, which I'm agreeable to whatever but I like the OC question best probably?

And now to compound your scummy defense of jplap you've got a new tier of scummy defending. For some obtuse reason you're now defending the indie, bussing your partner to keep the indie around. Like, at this point I'm wondering if roz is the indie or if this was a really botched attempt at saving jplap not by connecting himself with jplap, but by diverting conversation away from him and onto Mariano. Which then escalated and climaxed with roz pseudo-claiming indie because he didn't want to backpedal. Like, that is an entirely genuine possibility, and if that's the case, then NP is definitely, 100% mafia alongside the both of em.

IDK ask everybody but my townleader Cel who's probably town and just wrong so scum are leaving him be.

I'm hesitant to label this a scumslip right off the bat, but still, I'll express my refutation with the power of greentext:
>Is Day 1
>Hasn't been nightkilled yet
>Therefore mafia must be leaving be

Policy wagon to get the town to start working together and agree on such a simple point instead of letting people like Quaking sit in the background and suggesting terribly scummy things even though he voted Jplap for this earlier.

Lol. Suggesting a bad question isn't scummy because it's attempted contribution. Again with the 180 in your content: it was you who earlier went off at us about better discerning between being bad at the game and being scummy. Then a couple pages later, you do by far the worst version of this offense so far in this game. Nah.

 

[Celever]

I'm not gonna defend cause you want to vote a role for saying that it can interact with dead. Lel.

It's to the point of being ridiculous.
You don't even scumread me. You just vote for sake of voting, so I can't defend here.

Nono we definitely scumread you. We scumread the fact that you claimed scum.

 

[Celever]

That said, I'm looking on balance at who the bigger threat is. We're fortunate in this Day 1 to have two such great options, and basically the options boil down to this:

jplap: Higher risk vs higher reward
Risk:
> Not pseudo-confoscum like eevee
> That's it

Reward:
> If mafia, stronger ability than eevee. If town, we won't miss his ability at all.
> More information moving into Day 2

roz_the_eevee: Comically low risk vs meagre reward
Risk:
> Basically claimed scum
> That's it

Reward:
> Ability appears weak
> Don't get much information

The reason I say eevee's ability seems weak is this:

I'm not gonna defend cause you want to vote a role for saying that it can interact with dead. Lel.

It's to the point of being ridiculous.
You don't even scumread me. You just vote for sake of voting, so I can't defend here.

Yes, he's claimed indie. HOWEVER, it seems probable to me, having pieced together all of his claims from the thread about his role, that his ability is a type of mimicker, taking the abilities of felled players -- most likely only townies -- and being able to use them for himself. That ostensibly means that right now he doesn't have an ability of his own, if the role is taking the form I think it is. I don't know for certain if it's the case or not -- how could I -- but with eevee's admission that he'd rather town die than mafia from a role perspective, his argument that his role is designed to "make the game less swingy", and his fixation on dead players, compounded with the fact he's an indie, this is the only role I can think of that fits all of those categories.

On the other hand, jplap's ability, I still think, is almost definitely a "tell us a role and I'll tell you who has it / give you a list of 3-5 names of people who may have it". That just seems like the obvious scum version of his ability. I don't believe his claimed ability for a second partially because it's too weak -- obviously he needed a way to be able to express his results if he ever had to claim, but because his ability has no credible town use PMJ provided this weird bastardised version of his ability in his fake claim which he accidentally made 100% useless. Either that or he really was just given an entirely useless ability, in which case, FeelsBadMan. But PMJ has historically been good enough at designing games for me to think this is an unlikely option.

On balance, because I believe eevee doesn't pose a threat yet, and my original reason for voting for him was that now that we knew the indie we didn't know how much of a threat they posed, and it could've been great... I think I'm going to move back to jplap. He's the more immediate threat ability-wise if my predictions are correct, and while there's a higher chance he will flip town, we're all kidding ourselves if we think there's any way he will endgame. I'd rather remove the larger threat earlier on, because neither of these players are going to survive past the end of Day 2 (both wagons are too good) unless something very anomalous happens, in which case shift it to Day 3. But I don't want the mafia finding out our power roles in that time, so:

##UNVOTE: roz_the_eevee
##VOTE: professor_jplap

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Then we should have other players share their thoughts because clearly we disagree on a fundamental playstyle level. Either way, don't ask about the indie, @Professor_jplap , unless you hear otherwise. Literally the reason why we started voting for him at all was because he asked about the indie and we all thought that was a scummy thing to do. So I'm sorry if you disagree with the rest of the town, NP, but sometimes when your opinion is such a minority, there is a reason for that.

Nono I get that, but see I'm still considering the possibility that jplap could be town. We've all jumped the gun and said he's definitely mafia, and he's definitely a strong Day 1 lead, but he could still be town. And so I'd rather that we, if he is town, use his ability to advantage the town more than the mafia. If he is mafia, then no matter what we have him ask it advantages the mafia more, because we either ask about the indie, which helps mafia more, or we ask him a question he already knows so he's free to use the night to get some dirt on the town. This is exactly the reason why we wanted to lynch him, before eevee decided to dive in front of him and take the bullet.

And your defense of him is still very scummy because you've done a complete 180 not only in stance but also in content. Originally your defense of him was "his ability is too crucial for us to pass up on; it's super important that we keep him around because his ability is good", and that's turned into barely being able to think of a question for his ability that isn't godawful. Like, you're fixated on the indie question, which everyone else says is bad, and while Mariano's question about mason chat is a good alternative, if jplap is mafia, as I think it was you pointed out, if he's mafia he can just give a real WIFOMy answer anyway. So you've gone from saying he has to live because his ability is so good to know voting for him because the "game state changed"? Yeah right?

And now to compound your scummy defense of jplap you've got a new tier of scummy defending. For some obtuse reason you're now defending the indie, bussing your partner to keep the indie around. Like, at this point I'm wondering if roz is the indie or if this was a really botched attempt at saving jplap not by connecting himself with jplap, but by diverting conversation away from him and onto Mariano. Which then escalated and climaxed with roz pseudo-claiming indie because he didn't want to backpedal. Like, that is an entirely genuine possibility, and if that's the case, then NP is definitely, 100% mafia alongside the both of em.

I'm hesitant to label this a scumslip right off the bat, but still, I'll express my refutation with the power of greentext:
>Is Day 1
>Hasn't been nightkilled yet
>Therefore mafia must be leaving be

Lol. Suggesting a bad question isn't scummy because it's attempted contribution. Again with the 180 in your content: it was you who earlier went off at us about better discerning between being bad at the game and being scummy. Then a couple pages later, you do by far the worst version of this offense so far in this game. Nah.

Cel I'd love for you to read my posts k thx. Indie never helps mafia more, I've explained this, and you refuse to ever listen to me. This is honestly ridiculous. Instead, you just say "NO YOU'RE WRONG HELPS MAFIA" instead of actually listening to why this indie question is both useful (ascertaining the number of threats we have) and helps town more than scum (because town's goal is to eliminate threats, while mafia's is to get the numbers advantage, which means it really doesn't matter who's dying besides them).
Policy vote for people to get your act together =/= voting for scummiest player. I explained this, if you read. Eevee is known for claiming very strange roles to get results. There's a very real chance they're town (not much, but some. I said I'd be switching to them once this policy vote is gone).
I'm seriously dying that you call this a possible scumslip you know that mafia has a thread presence and well as a nightkill.
If you could read, Quaking's question was scummy because he went after and voted Jplap for a bad question and provided a horrifyingly bad one himself. I'd be cool if he asked a bad question and didn't think Jplap was scummy for it, but when he asks the 3rd worst possible question out there for town (after "is there a seer" and "is there a doctor") and voted Jplap for asking a bad question (calling it a scumslip), yeah this is scummy.
Just be sure to lock in the fact that my motivation is to be saving my two scumbuddies Jplap and eevee!

> If mafia, stronger ability than eevee. If town, we won't miss his ability at all.

Wait Cel I thought this was a terrible ability that almost everything is better than. Or did something magically change that fact?

 

[roz_the_eevee]

having pieced together all of his claims from the thread about his role, that his ability is a type of mimicker, taking the abilities of felled players -- most likely only townies -- and being able to use them for himself.

Good job on actualy guessing my role.

As I said - Rolewise it is much better for me for town to die.
However since I am not a anti-town, I won't vote town just cause I would be able to do something tonight.

Do you understand my post now?

That's also same thing most of you were saying, but for whatever reason thought I said it cause I'm against town.

Like any antitown would ever write anything like that, lel.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Good job on actualy guessing my role.

As I said - Rolewise it is much better for me for town to die.
However since I am not a anti-town, I won't vote town just cause I would be able to do something tonight.

Do you understand my post now?

That's also same thing most of you were saying, but for whatever reason thought I said it cause I'm against town.

Like any antitown would ever write anything like that, lel.

Eevee I really want to believe you but that "this is my 87th time as indie" post makes me doubt myself. Can you please explain that for me?

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Eevee I really want to believe you but that "this is my 87th time as indie" post makes me doubt myself. Can you please explain that for me?

And thoughts on your question (because if Jplap dies you're gonna back him up if he flips town)?

 

[Celever]

Good job on actualy guessing my role.

As I said - Rolewise it is much better for me for town to die.
However since I am not a anti-town, I won't vote town just cause I would be able to do something tonight.

Do you understand my post now?

That's also same thing most of you were saying, but for whatever reason thought I said it cause I'm against town.

Like any antitown would ever write anything like that, lel.

Deny that you're an indie if it's not true, now.

 

[roz_the_eevee]

Eevee I really want to believe you but that "this is my 87th time as indie" post makes me doubt myself. Can you please explain that for me?

"This would be 87th time" would be the correct one. Consider this post as ironic.

I'm still not denying nor confirming it, since I don't see any acussations going my way wich are from people actualy thinking I'm scum.
I just see people "let's vote him, just becouse".

 

[Celever]

Cel I'd love for you to read my posts k thx. Indie never helps mafia more, I've explained this, and you refuse to ever listen to me. This is honestly ridiculous. Instead, you just say "NO YOU'RE WRONG HELPS MAFIA" instead of actually listening to why this indie question is both useful (ascertaining the number of threats we have) and helps town more than scum (because town's goal is to eliminate threats, while mafia's is to get the numbers advantage, which means it really doesn't matter who's dying besides them).

And I can see the exact same thing to you, because you also haven't listened to my perspective as to why it's better for mafia to find out about the indie. You have the foundation right but the conclusions wrong. Yes, town has to eliminate threats. So does mafia. Mafia's threats are all players that they can't win with -- one such role being the indie. Town has to eliminate roles that pose a direct threat to the town and want to dispel their numbers -- those roles being mafia, or serial killers. Eevee is neither. Therefore, mafia care way more about the indie than the town.

If the indie had the ability to kill us then by all means they're a big threat to us, but you're loopy if you ever thought there was a serial killer in a game of this size.

Policy vote for people to get your act together =/= voting for scummiest player. I explained this, if you read. Eevee is known for claiming very strange roles to get results. There's a very real chance they're town (not much, but some. I said I'd be switching to them once this policy vote is gone).

Oh, I understand that. My issue is you policy voting, especially Day 1. "Policy voting" is, without exception, a crude excuse scum use to pile onto votes when it opposes their previous stances in-thread. It's the equivalent of "oh well I'm not shifting the thoughts of the majority so I'll just ride along with them", and that's something that town never has an interest in doing, again, especially on Day 1. And again, it was you who pointed out how you've done the Lord's work by giving the town several good lynch options today (even though I was the one who started all 3 of the main lynch options so that was actually a lie to make yourself seem useful )

I'm seriously dying that you call this a possible scumslip you know that mafia has a thread presence and well as a nightkill.

And I'm seriously dying that you think all the mafia in-thread would out themselves Day 1 and attack the person making a case on their buddy. Only you've done that, which I guess is where that perspective comes from, but you've also misplayed hard this game.

If you could read, Quaking's question was scummy because he went after and voted Jplap for a bad question and provided a horrifyingly bad one himself. I'd be cool if he asked a bad question and didn't think Jplap was scummy for it, but when he asks the 3rd worst possible question out there for town (after "is there a seer" and "is there a doctor") and voted Jplap for asking a bad question (calling it a scumslip), yeah this is scummy.

Except they're completely different contexts. Yes, they're both bad questions. Jplap asked the question on Night 0 to PMJ as his final question, foregoing dozens of better ones most of which we haven't even thought of, but the obvious one for a player who doesn't really know what to ask would be "how many mafians are there". Like that is the obvious question for anyone to ask. Quaking suggested his question in a literal thread-wide brain-mapping exercise where Zone basically said "there are no bad question so please, everyone contribute". And wasn't even vehement about it -- it was, just as I said, merely a suggestion. The fact you're trying to make that into something scummy reads more as diversion than anything else, because it's not scummy in the least.

Just be sure to lock in the fact that my motivation is to be saving my two scumbuddies Jplap and eevee!

The eevee stuff was clearly hypothetical but yes, if jplap is scum honestly I'd rather lynch you tomorrow than Eevee.

Wait Cel I thought this was a terrible ability that almost everything is better than. Or did something magically change that fact?

Responded to this in the post you quoted from, when talking about this subject matter:

On the other hand, jplap's ability, I still think, is almost definitely a "tell us a role and I'll tell you who has it / give you a list of 3-5 names of people who may have it". That just seems like the obvious scum version of his ability. I don't believe his claimed ability for a second partially because it's too weak -- obviously he needed a way to be able to express his results if he ever had to claim, but because his ability has no credible town use PMJ provided this weird bastardised version of his ability in his fake claim which he accidentally made 100% useless. Either that or he really was just given an entirely useless ability, in which case, FeelsBadMan. But PMJ has historically been good enough at designing games for me to think this is an unlikely option.

 

[roz_the_eevee]

Deny that you're an indie if it's not true, now.

No.

Not gonna deny nor confirm it.

 

[Celever]

"This would be 87th time" would be the correct one. Consider this post as ironic.

I'm still not denying nor confirming it, since I don't see any acussations going my way wich are from people actualy thinking I'm scum.
I just see people "let's vote him, just becouse".

If you can't see them then I hope you get your guide dog soon.

 

[Celever]

"This would be 87th time" would be the correct one. Consider this post as ironic.

I'm still not denying nor confirming it, since I don't see any acussations going my way wich are from people actualy thinking I'm scum.
I just see people "let's vote him, just becouse".

Let me clear something up. "Scum" means anti-town a.k.a not town-affiliated a.k.a mafia and indies. "Mafia" means part of the, well, mafia. So if you're saying no one thinks your mafia, then right you are, congrats, but if you're saying no one thinks your scum? Nope sorry you're wrong, because everyone is voting you for being indie. Which is being scum.

And that's already bloody flawed because indies have to defend themselves too.

 

[roz_the_eevee]

Lel, that means you didn't play enough games yet, cause I saw VERY town-sided 3rd party roles.

3rd party is also called neutral in some communities. If someone is neutral, then they are not anti-town to begin with.
It all depends on the role, and voting suspected 3rd party cause he is suspected 3rd party, WITHOUT ANY SCUMREADING is just wrong.

 

[Celever]

I've been playing online for over 6 years and in well over 250 games so don't criticise the experience. I understand that third parties are often called neutral. That's not the PB meta. Maybe the problem is you didnt play enough games here yet.

Post your wincondition if you're true neutral.

 

[roz_the_eevee]

Let me give you an example.

In one game I was a role wich wins as long as mafia is defeated.
Meaning it could win with TOWN or with NEUTRAL KILLER.

What town does if they meet a role like that is hung a neutral killer, so that role has to win with them. Hanging it would be basicly wasting a day on hanging 3p role wich is esentialy working wiht town.

3rd party is not esentialy anti-town and not idealy town-only, but they can work with town.
So your argument is like... Let's hang suspected 3rd party, even if they can win with us, just cause we suspect them of 3rd party.

Yes, there can be harmful 3p, but that's where scumreading comes in, and all of you somehow forgot to scumread at all.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

And I can see the exact same thing to you, because you also haven't listened to my perspective as to why it's better for mafia to find out about the indie. You have the foundation right but the conclusions wrong. Yes, town has to eliminate threats. So does mafia. Mafia's threats are all players that they can't win with -- one such role being the indie. Town has to eliminate roles that pose a direct threat to the town and want to dispel their numbers -- those roles being mafia, or serial killers. Eevee is neither. Therefore, mafia care way more about the indie than the town.

Mafia still sees indie as an equal threat to every other townie (which your post seems to say itself), but since they already know the identity of every possible threat to them, indie is irrelevant.
Town sees everybody they can't win with as a threat too. There's just one difference: they are uninformed and don't know the identity of every possible threat to them. But at least they can learn how many threats to them are out there by asking my question.

Oh, I understand that. My issue is you policy voting, especially Day 1. "Policy voting" is, without exception, a crude excuse scum use to pile onto votes when it opposes their previous stances in-thread. It's the equivalent of "oh well I'm not shifting the thoughts of the majority so I'll just ride along with them", and that's something that town never has an interest in doing, again, especially on Day 1. And again, it was you who pointed out how you've done the Lord's work by giving the town several good lynch options today (even though I was the one who started all 3 of the main lynch options so that was actually a lie to make yourself seem useful )

Please read what I said about how this isn't sticking.
Please, you started the Mariano wagon as RVS and I started a Wagon Round 2 as not RVS. You need to wake up.

And I'm seriously dying that you think all the mafia in-thread would out themselves Day 1 and attack the person making a case on their buddy. Only you've done that, which I guess is where that perspective comes from, but you've also misplayed hard this game.

Yep, Mariano, who's making a case on my scumbuddies eevee and Jplap, has been mowed down by me today.

Except they're completely different contexts. Yes, they're both bad questions. Jplap asked the question on Night 0 to PMJ as his final question, foregoing dozens of better ones most of which we haven't even thought of, but the obvious one for a player who doesn't really know what to ask would be "how many mafians are there". Like that is the obvious question for anyone to ask. Quaking suggested his question in a literal thread-wide brain-mapping exercise where Zone basically said "there are no bad question so please, everyone contribute". And wasn't even vehement about it -- it was, just as I said, merely a suggestion. The fact you're trying to make that into something scummy reads more as diversion than anything else, because it's not scummy in the least.

You aren't reading my post Cel please be quiet unless you know what I'm saying. Quaking doesn't seem to be trying to find alignment when he votes Jplap for a bad question (which he considers bad questions possible scumslips) and then asks a bad one himself. If he, a townie, would ask a bad question, why should Jplap be scummy for doing so?