Finished Mafia 53: Twilight's Kingdom

[Zone Q11]

The point is eventually not indicative. What’s indicative at the moment is the fact he is not here explaining himself while being active on the site and without any modkill for the day.

*checks jplap's recent activity*
...point taken.

 

[Zone Q11]

Why would town mention that they don't have a killing PR?

I already told this to SM: It was a slip of the tongue/finger.

Basically every post does one of these:

• Post a fact
• Ask a question
• Post a lot of fluff
• Solidify the idea that he doesn't know

Fact: That is true.
Question: Have I been really not useful at all?
Fluff: ...I dunno what to say here.
Solidification: Read fluff.

I encourage you to pick one of Q11's posts randomly and see if it follows the formula. Note how his latest post follows it.

• Starts with a question
• Asks another question
• Posts a fact
• Posts a contradicting sentence stating that jlap doesn't seem like an inactive town and is seeming less and less like scum.
• Ends with stating that he doesn't know

He also likes to ask questions about things that aren't important to give the impression that he is contributing a lot.

Well, what else did you expect that I can do!?
I can't go have a full on discussion with anyone at all, because I know that I am likely to lose. The jplap thing really confused me, until SM pointed out his activity. Me asking questions is my main way of contributing because I am weak at attacks and defenses!

*checks jplap's recent activity*
...point taken.

Ah. I almost forgot.
##VOTE: Professor_jplap

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Reads list:

Town:
scattered mind~He's been the one of everybody in the game who I see as genuinely trying to see all the options out there and scumhunting his best. He's just simply making the best effort at simply trying to find alignment and not getting mixed up into a bad mindset this game.

Light Town:
bbninjas~The way he burst into the scene and has gone full throttle here is something that I think is very typical of town BB, who's much more inspired and really trying to give it his all than scum BB. His mindset seems to be coming from a pure perspective, and his progression/thinking makes a lot of sense. He's also mindmelded with me at times in his posts, which helps. And Jade actually posts as scum haha.
Celever~The fact that's he so stubborn and controlling this game compared to the past is worrying, but the fact is that I still think he's town who's having issues reading players independently of whether or not they agree with him (somebody is probably gonna say this is uncharacteristic but it really isn't when you remember all those Cel/Camo or Cel/PMJ fights and the fact he's actually less like this as scum.). His posting in general just seems incredibly high effort and a lot of thought is going intl his posting that I don't think would be there as scum.
Keeper of Night~His play is a tad strange at moments, but I think that's coming back from a long break a lot more than being scum. There's no red flags here for me besides a couple of role-based stuff and that's not AI for me. No extreme green flags either, but just in general posting is good and I especially believe how he went after eevee.

Neutral lean town:
Zone Q11~I'm miserable at trying to read Zone because this style of posting is typical regardless of alignment but I'm going towards town on my soulread here. Literally no other reason because they wouldn't help me.

The town line. Everybody above here is more townie than the average player.

Neutral:
Jabberwock~Jabber seems like a townie in general, but he is a player who tends to read very townie when in fact he is one, so I'm conflicted because I'm not getting nearly as much of that as I normally do, but that may just be because of his V/LA.

Neutral leaning scum:
GM DracLord~Drac feels like typical Drac with a bit more apathy, but typical Drac is scum since he's rolled it so much recently, which makes me conflicted on his alignment. I don't particularly think the case on him moves the needle much if at all.
Mariano11887~I still think his early tone was too much towards appeasing and his claim was a bit eh, but I liked recent posts and him having reads with thought process that I thought looked pretty genuine.

The scum line. Everybody above here is townie by the numbers.

Luispipe8~This isn't Luis's posts, but Nick's. I felt an aura of agenda when it came to how he talked about Jplap and I didn't like it one bit. Didn't like anything else he did (the Keeper vote or how he spoke about eevee that felt like he knew eevee was a townie while having his vote on him).

Leaning Scum:
Camoclone~Like Luis, this is Quaking's posting, not Camo's. I've already explained what I didn't like about it.
Professor_jplap~I explained this when I voted him.

 

[Celever]

What actually is your case on me, @Celever? It's not clear at all. You made comments on my recent post, stating that I am incorrect / hunting poorly / need to explain myself (or something to that effect) -- okay, cool, you completely disagree with me; does that make me scummy? Then you noticed -- and I assume that this is the central point -- that by coincidence, I FoS'd basically everyone who voted for Roz. However, you don't believe that this is coincidental (why not coincidence?), and instead you believe that I am being opportunistic by manipulating hindsight in attempt to... well, you don't say, but presumably something like trying to throw false suspicion around. (Then, why have I not actually pushed to lynch any of these people? Where is the evidence of intentional / malicious follow-up behaviour?) And then you justify this by saying "it's bb's exact scum meta", even though meta-reads are weak and dismissable and insubstantial (hence you criticised me for using them), and even though you didn't justify this with evidence (again, for this you criticised me). Are meta-reads weak, or completely valid? You can't have both!

Then you sum up the case in an incredibly verbose sentence (why so needlessly complex?) -- which is just as incredibly difficult to understand: [bbn is] a textbook example of using 'equivocation' to target a specific sub-list of players that are somehow connected by suspicion but in a way which he doesn't publicly release.

Which I take to mean as: [bbn] is 'incorrectly applying Mafia terminology' to pressure a 'certain group of people' that are 'apparently suspicious' without 'actually justifying his suspicions'.

Or in simple words: bbn is scumhunting certain people insufficiently (subjective) and is not justifying himself (false). How does not scumhunting up to your standard make me scum? It sounds like you're using flashy buzzwords, convoluted sentences and sheer volume to disguise a meager case.

Spoiler: click if you would like to see how I interpreted this

Then you sum up the case in an incredibly verbose sentence -- which is just as incredibly difficult to understand: [bbn is] a textbook example of using equivocation to target a specific sub-list of players that are somehow connected by suspicion but in a way which he doesn't publicly release.

Which I take to mean as: [bbn] is incorrectly applying Mafia terminology [link] to pressure a certain group of people that are apparently suspicious without actually justifying his suspicions.
potato
Or in simple words: bbn is scumhunting certain people insufficiently and is not justifying himself.

This isn't the case at all. My case on you is the following:

Your FoSes were directed only at people on the Eevee lynch. The scumminess follows in two steps: A) This is a difficult thing to take as coincidence but B) Even if it is coincidence, I don't think it's something you wouldn't have noticed, fresh off an in-depth analysis of Day 1. This is where the equivocation (misleading by way of omission as opposed to misleading by actually saying misleading things) comes into play. Even if it was just coincidence, I believe town bb would have confronted the fact that all of his FoSes were on the Eevee lynch and been more transparent with it than skipping over it like you did in this game. And that answers your purple. And idk why you changed what the blue said cos it's pretty word-for-word in meaning.

Celever's original post:

Cutting out some of the case :thinking:

Either way, bb's case is strong but I'm not sure if it's the strongest lynch today. My list of scum vibin' players is somewhat big, but I have to say Camo's case on Zone has intrigued me and I'm interested to see where it leads. I looks like it could be a good start to something.

 

[bbninjas]

Lol what townie reading at EoD asks this question? This is a player who knows he's dead anyways so he tries to get what he (incorrectly) believes what will help his faction more. Like this question is the best one but the gamestate makes it bad.
##UNVOTE
##VOTE: Professor_jplap

Hrm... Hey, is there any chance that jplap is not a good mafia player or any chance of jplap being too busy with RL to the point where he didn't read all posts? Because I suddenly thought of a world where jplap is a town like that.

This. Jplap is often very focused on survival / not "failing" (i.e. getting lynched) as town, and it's common for him to disappear once receiving too much pressure. I don't think that accusing someone of not playing how a good town player should play is enough to vote someone, as NP (for example) is.

Either way, assuming that jplap flips scum but tells the truth, who do you think we should suspect the most after him?

I'm not sure why you would assume that Jplap would be telling the truth if he flips scum.

Not to but in completely on the Celever case, but it's also worth mentioning that little wording quirks like that aren't nearly as relevant for Drac as they are for a lot of other players, just bc English isn't his first language. This entire paragraph feels really strained.

As I see it, Drac had different reasons for not wanting to lynch Cel and Keeper - not the same, as Cel suggested; and the point - that Drac was being inconsistent, important in the event that Drac gets lynched - is a reasonable conclusion, without delving deep into wording choices. (Although I think it is even more apparent if you do that.)

Bold. Why would town mention that they don't have a killing PR? With so much flip flopping in posts he is intentionally making it hard to get a read on him. Basically every post does one of these:

• Post a fact
• Ask a question
• Post a lot of fluff
• Solidify the idea that he doesn't know

Isn't it common for players to post facts and, in that paragraph, conclude that they don't really know? I see it pretty often at least, so: What makes this more significant for Zone, over other players?

I do find it interesting that @Zone Q11 was fairly active and involved in the discussions that took place Day 1, but seems to have taken more of a backseat Day 2.

--

I would get to Celever's post, but I don't have time. Basically, he expected me to have noticed the coincidence because I analysed all of Day 1 (which I didn't) and have made a comment on it. It is apparently impossible for me to have missed that (which is what happened).

 

[Mariano11887]

I spent more than an hour catching up from yesterday and I don't have time to make a deep analysis now. I'll just say two things:

• It's a pity that no-one supports me in my case on Keeper, I'm still thinking he is the best lynch option.
• Jplap definitely needs to pop here and participate more. We need to hear his defense and the answers to SM's questions, the ones just after his last night results.

 

[Zone Q11]

I'm not sure why you would assume that Jplap would be telling the truth if he flips scum.

Didn't NP mention it? To gain favor of the indie questioneers. (Which are rather non-existent if you ask me.) NP said that Celever concluded that the scumteam are the indie questioneers in Post #617. Or at least that is what I thought NP had meant to say. If I am wrong, then I don't know what NP meant...

I do find it interesting that @Zone Q11 was fairly active and involved in the discussions that took place Day 1, but seems to have taken more of a backseat Day 2.

No defense against this. I kind of already did post my reads on Post #577. Though, I want to change Camo's opinion from neutral to offensive. His sudden attack at me is... simply too odd. Then again, I never played with him, so I wouldn't know.

It's a pity that no-one supports me in my case on Keeper, I'm still thinking he is the best lynch option.

About that: The reason why I stopped aiming at Keeper is because his arguments make sense.
-> If he is town, then he is unlikely to be NK-ed while he gives town info about Farewell Abilies. Plus he still plays the game by giving opinions, suspicions and voting. He also said that lynching him would harm town only, so there is that too.
-> If he is scum, then it wouldn't have made sense for him to cooperate by revealing his role and talking about the Farewell Abilities.

Naturally these PoVs can be debunked by other PoVs, but I have pretty much given up on those mindgames so I convince myself that Keeper is best left alive because of his willing cooperation.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Jplap definitely needs to pop here and participate more. We need to hear his defense and the answers to SM's questions, the ones just after his last night results

He literally never commented on anything besides his results and that is another big worry factor of mine fyi.

Didn't NP mention it? To gain favor of the indie questioneers. (Which are rather non-existent if you ask me.) NP said that Celever concluded that the scumteam are the indie questioneers in Post #617. Or at least that is what I thought NP had meant to say. If I am wrong, then I don't know what NP meant

I strongarmed a potential scum Jplap into telling the truth when I said yesterday that scum should still always tell the truth or they're making a large mistake.

 

[Jabberwock]

IDK when I did that (I said that or the OC question) but obviously the thread momentum at the end of the day was Cel telling him to ask the OC question or die, along with at least Zone supporting that iirc.

Nope. You don't get to say "oh well yeah I told him to ask that question but hey I told him he could also ask another question; nmf he didn't do that! Dx". You even said in that post to bear in mind that Cel and others didn't want him to ask the first question; it's literally like you were setting him up for a lynch if he asked the first question.

Well, what else did you expect that I can do!?
I can't go have a full on discussion with anyone at all, because I know that I am likely to lose. The jplap thing really confused me, until SM pointed out his activity. Me asking questions is my main way of contributing because I am weak at attacks and defenses!

Yeah but the questions (and this is like Camo's main point) aren't really contributing. They're like asides that are designed to appear as though you're contributing, but don't actually add anything to the discussion either because the answer is a foregone conclusion or because it's just straight-up irrelevant.

I actually hadn't considered Zone 'cos I'd had them written off as new town. Don't think they're the best lynch for today but sure, I'm interested to see where this goes. Especially because so far the two times they've been voted (first by me in RVS, then by Camo now) they've reacted p strongly.

Luispipe8~This isn't Luis's posts, but Nick's. I felt an aura of agenda when it came to how he talked about Jplap and I didn't like it one bit. Didn't like anything else he did (the Keeper vote or how he spoke about eevee that felt like he knew eevee was a townie while having his vote on him).

Leaning Scum:
Camoclone~Like Luis, this is Quaking's posting, not Camo's. I've already explained what I didn't like about it.
Professor_jplap~I explained this when I voted him.

It's worth pointing out that all three of NP's scumreads (plus Mariano) seem to be scum due to either tone reads or "an aura of agenda" (i.e., tone reads).

• It's a pity that no-one supports me in my case on Keeper, I'm still thinking he is the best lynch option.

It's a pity you're ignoring his rebuttal to your case on him.

 

[Mariano11887]

About that: The reason why I stopped aiming at Keeper is because his arguments make sense.
-> If he is town, then he is unlikely to be NK-ed while he gives town info about Farewell Abilies. Plus he still plays the game by giving opinions, suspicions and voting. He also said that lynching him would harm town only, so there is that too.
-> If he is scum, then it wouldn't have made sense for him to cooperate by revealing his role and talking about the Farewell Abilities.

-> If he is town, then I still don't understand his selfishness of "I know my bomb is more effective if I'm nightkilled, but I want to be alive to play the game".
-> If he is scum, then his "cooperation" is all stuff created by him to appear he brings useful and uncheckable information to us.

It's a pity you're ignoring his rebuttal to your case on him.

I'm not ignoring it, he didn't convince me at all.

But well, I don't want to concentrate too much on Keeper if I have too low support. I'll try to make a time tomorrow to review some previous posts and see where I put my definitive vote.

 

[Camoclone]

All of Zone's recent posts.

I only know four characters who could have that... Considering it is an "upgrade", the original was probably a shield, and the shieldbearing ponies are:
-> Shining Armor
-> One of the three Cutie Mark Crusaders

Flavor

Don't even start about multiple cutie marks...

Fluff

Nice to hear that something from my D1 post is aligning!

Fluff

Welp. 3AM. Time to sleep.
Personally, I am more interested in Quaking, but... "the wait and hear what jplap has to say" has yet to come.

Fluff

I am online now for a short time.
Seeing as nobody wants to check the flavor based discussion, I guess I will have to drop it as well. I kinda liked it though, but I suppose it really does waste our time.


Am I the only one suspicious of Keeper because of this post? If he speaks the truth, then he basically just told scum to not kill him this night. In my eyes, it looks more like a "don't lynch me, because I am helpful if not lynched" claim, which looks more scummy to me than WIFOM.


Having said that, if Keeper flips town then I would be pretty sure that jplap is scum.

Notice the use of words like "scummy to me" and "in my eyes". This shows that he doesn't want to put himself out there, in my eyes. Notice how that weakens what I'm saying? Then he says that Keeper might be town again rendering this post null.

Hm... Fair point.


Well then, back to the main topic... Actually, my main topic was going to be about Quaking, but seeing as he wants to get subbed, I don't think it is worth it to preach further onto him.
...welp! Time to play the waiting game again. For jplap's answers.

Fluff. I thought he was done with the waiting game?

-> I see. ...isn't this bad though? ...I'll ask at my home forum if anyone wants to volunteer. Hopefully A5G_Reaper (a.k.a. Death, the GM) has the time and motivation...

Fluff

Oh. I see.
...that is still NAI though.
But so far you have been progressive and that is a good trait regardless of alignment...

Regardless of alignment????

Hrm... I will check for anyone else before coming back to you then. Because so far, except for Luis the inactive, you are my best shot. I mean, there is Drac as well, but I don't know his meta enough to judge whether he really is behaving different then when he isn't bothered with RL.

Not aggressive and very timid.

It's on the first post. Luis subbed Nick. bb subbed T_E.

Fact.

Try to convince that to Celever. I won't even try to do that because I know that I will lose in any form of discussion.

Fluff??? Why is he so sure Celever is town?

Uh... What scattered mind said: It seems that he has given up. ...having said that, it seems that he was online until Tuesday, so we have no confirmation about him throwing the towel.
Again, says something then basically takes it back.

But... if it is about the amount of scum, then didn't NP already explain that it should be three? His argument of "four is too much" sounds reasonable to me. Don't we have any other setting-based scum-related questions? ...oh wait, we already asked that. ...time to wait again.

Fluff.

You kinda put my words out of context, but the reason why I posted that part is basically to suppport the first half of the paragraph which says that I do not trust my own reads lately. In other words, it literally was meant as a support. The subtle claim was a slip of the tongue, I suppose.

He doesn't trust his own reads... He says it himself. His posts literally all mean nothing if you haven't figured it out by this point in this post.

As for the blame on Keeper... Yeah, I have nothing on that. I am kind of looking for anything to blame at this point.

Yet he never really follows up on anything. He preys on the easy cases (whatever is going on at that point in the game).

Let's see what I have...
-> Celever and you are strong town in my eyes because you are scumhunting with progression in your mind.
-> NP and Keeper are odd cases where I can see them as scum, but feels as if they could be town based on their reasons for their actions. (Though that last part is somewhat less on Keeper because his alignment is unknown to me and I have this mindset where I keep seeing him as scum even though logic says that it is WIFOM at best. ...sigh, time will tell.)

What does the last sentence mean? Could be town but also could be scum?

-> Oddly, this mindset doesn't apply to NP. Perhaps it is because he didn't roleclaim? Or perhaps it is a matter of choices with words? I don't know myself.​

-> Jabberwock, bb and Mariano are basically a null read for me because I can't seem to read anything strongly alignment indicative from them. (Well... bb just came in with that post, but he has yet to respond to Celever's reactions.)
-> Quaking is going to be subbed or modkilled, but I highly suspect him to be either scum or bandwagonner. (If he somehow survives without explaining more, then I will be sure to vote him immediately.)

I guess this is my position. Again this doesn't really say much as he was wagoning. > He is either scum or not.

-> ...after a re-check, apparently he did answer the questions that Mariano gave so I have to re-evaluate them. Mariano has more town points from me simply for questioning my suspect (because I suck at questioning and pressuring people), while I can't help but agree with Quaking's answers. ...except Answer 2. Answering any question with "it is role-indicated" seems too suspicious. The question Quaking had was "Can night kill be blocked without doctor?", so... Quaking is a roleblocker? -still, the question fails to help town and practically helped scum instead.​

-> Drac's reason to be semi-active is RL. (...I think I kinda need to re-check him as well.)
-> Jplap has yet to talk.


...yeah, I am at a loss at what to do here.

He seems to never know what to do or think...

I already did in #379 and even repeated it at #491.


Well...
-> My reason for doubting you as town is because you defended eevee whom at the time you don't know whether he will help or not. Only now do we know that eevee is town, but the fact that you tried to save a possible threat is worrisome.
-> ...hm? Possible threat... Hey, is anyone going to talk about the NK? If the indie is harmful, then there ought to be two doctors, right?
-> I think I already stated why I am more wary of Keeper than you and I already said that he will come after Luis ...whose post I will respond right now:


Did you read Celever's posts?
First it was a slip, then it was constant denial, then it was a contradiction, then he admitted defeat? I won't deny that the possibility of a scum among the eevee-voters is high, but how the hell are we supposed to think that eevee was town if he behaved like that!?
It was very situational and even at the last minutes, no one thought that eevee was town. At least, I sure as hell didn't.
Fact.

I thought this was clear, but thanks for the reminder!

Good news: NP is proud (probably) and we don't have to search for indie anymore.
Bad news: You are dead to Celever. Post #457.

Fluff.


On one side: Fair point...
On the other side: Stupid mind games...
In other words: Your point makes sense, so I will aim at anyone else that I can get for now.


@Luispipe8, did you read this? Please respond if you do.

The fact that he wants jplap's question to ask things about scum over NP's indie question sounds progressive to me. That, and many other reasonable posts of his, including Post #529.

Everybody ignored it, but at least it was true...
So I assume that we have confirmed that a doctor prevented the NK? ...huh, now I also wonder whether a Roleblocker can prevent the NK... Oh well. It is less relevant than the current gameplay.

-> Oioi. I simply stated that I have become curious as well about that question. I did not say anything about talking further about it.

This is a big point. He asks questions but never follows up and according to this he doesn't want to follow up.

-> Rather, if you want a question for jplap, then why don't you wait for his answer to your question? You're not the only one who's curious to know why jplap wants to make enemies with Celever.


As for my suspicions... To me, jplap's action this night is equal to buddying up with NP. I mean, both NP and Celever had consented that they would be fine with the question of "Did any town had any connections with scum?" yet jplap asked a question that favors NP's paranoia. However, basically helps scum more than town -as stated by Celever.
To sum it up: jplap is my top suspect for said reasons.


Actually I still wanted to point my FoS on Quaking but now that he is subbed out, I guess waiting for any response from Camo is "the best option" for now. (Sarcasm to Luis. The best option is not to wait, but to act.)
Then there is Luis whose discussion with Keeper seems... normal to me. Although I still want his answer on the eevee-case.


My next target would have been NP, because of jplap, but... it could have also been jplap trying to pocket NP, so I doubt it. If anything, I am actually interested as to what Celever will say to jplap. Also, I still want Celever's answer regarding the ought-to-be-confirmed amount of scum.

These two paragraphs again mean nothing.

The case on Drac... To be fair, the fact that he saw everyone equally sounds rather odd if you think about the three aforementioned people. But anything aside from that, still not much.

If you ask me, accusing NP because of tonereading is pretty weak if the other party says that the mechanics are pretty much the same as a normal read.


No. I found it odd that I saw him as less suspicous than Keeper and I said that it was maybe because NP didn't roleclaim. Which is good, because I don't want any more roleclaims at this point.


I admit I am highly interested as to what happened in N1, but not to the point where I would rolehunt. I keep saying this, but I am stating my interest into them and I never intend for them to become a topic at all.

This is a rolehunt but he tries to do it without arousing suspicion.

Had he not denied anything from the beginning, then I would agree that everything he had said at the end makes sense.
I- ...actually, I might have to reconsider this...
-> Eevee slipped by saying dead towns are more beneficial
-> People became aware of that and became wary of eevee
-> People basically attack eevee
-> At one point, eevee was cornered, admitted his role and said he was town
-> People said that it was too late at that point


Facts

...
... ...
...okay, I might be guilty for his death then.
Still, everyone was pretty paranoid for the indie at D1 so most of us simply voted eevee out of fear that he was a threat to town.
...I don't know what to say anymore.


(-_-)
Even though Post #456 did say that most people disagree with your first question, shouldn't you at least be happy that we don't have to worry about the indie?
Then again, if he was scum then he might as well have lied on his N0 question and throw us all to confusion. Which is actually highly probable...
Either way, assuming that jplap flips scum but tells the truth, who do you think we should suspect the most after him?

I see. Noted.
...hrm. I kinda want to hear your read on Mariano, but I suppose I will wait until you have finished your ISOs.




Hrm... Hey, is there any chance that jplap is not a good mafia player or any chance of jplap being too busy with RL to the point where he didn't read all posts? Because I suddenly thought of a world where jplap is a town like that.

I'm pretty sure he thought about it at the beginning of the post... he just felt like flopping around again.

I mean, why else would he say that he asked the indie question instead of the town-scum question? Had he been scum, then he could have said that he asked the town-scum question while giving a self-thought fake answer.

...I don't remember D2 having a RVS, and a naked vote at that too.



I don't get this sentence, and I don't understand at all how saying that he asked the indie question would benefit the scumteam, considering Celever has threatened jplap to die were he to do so.


Actually, you were the one who tagged him while Celever threatened him in the next post without tagging him.


...hm? This doesn't make sense. Even if jplap is an inactive town, you would expect for him to at least read Celever's threat... and I am kind of losing the idea of jplap being scum, because if he was scum, then his scumbuddies ought to have warned him in the scum PM.

Another post that says nothing.

...this is very confusing.

*checks jplap's recent activity*
...point taken.

I already told this to SM: It was a slip of the tongue/finger.


Fact: That is true.
Question: Have I been really not useful at all?
Fluff: ...I dunno what to say here.
Solidification: Read fluff.


Well, what else did you expect that I can do!?
I can't go have a full on discussion with anyone at all, because I know that I am likely to lose. The jplap thing really confused me, until SM pointed out his activity. Me asking questions is my main way of contributing because I am weak at attacks and defenses!

Why is he likely to lose? Because he is scum and is afraid.

Ah. I almost forgot.
##VOTE: Professor_jplap

Didn't NP mention it? To gain favor of the indie questioneers. (Which are rather non-existent if you ask me.) NP said that Celever concluded that the scumteam are the indie questioneers in Post #617. Or at least that is what I thought NP had meant to say. If I am wrong, then I don't know what NP meant...

No defense against this. I kind of already did post my reads on Post #577. Though, I want to change Camo's opinion from neutral to offensive. His sudden attack at me is... simply too odd. Then again, I never played with him, so I wouldn't know.

About that: The reason why I stopped aiming at Keeper is because his arguments make sense.
-> If he is town, then he is unlikely to be NK-ed while he gives town info about Farewell Abilies. Plus he still plays the game by giving opinions, suspicions and voting. He also said that lynching him would harm town only, so there is that too.
-> If he is scum, then it wouldn't have made sense for him to cooperate by revealing his role and talking about the Farewell Abilities.

Naturally these PoVs can be debunked by other PoVs, but I have pretty much given up on those mindgames so I convince myself that Keeper is best left alive because of his willing cooperation.

Read this whole series of quotes. He asks a lot of questions then eventually goes back on most of them and never tries to get anything done with the questions he asks. His questions are all solely relevant to the current discussion of the thread. He has no opinions of his own.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

It's worth pointing out that all three of NP's scumreads (plus Mariano) seem to be scum due to either tone reads or "an aura of agenda" (i.e., tone reads).

Yep 1000% Quaking not trying to win the game for town because he wasn't really scumhunting and asked a scummy question was a tone read. Along with Jplap asking a question town wouldn't ask in that circumstance.
The aura of agenda was Nick felt like he had some reason to not get on the Jplap wagon while still criticizing the other ones and appearing to support the Jplap lynch. Not to mention what I said about Nick's posting about eevee.

Camo, I've read Zone's town game in the past and the fluff is also pretty omnipresent. It's not indicative of alignment I'd think.

 

[Camoclone]

My point isn’t solely about fluff.

 

[Jabberwock]

Yep 1000% Quaking not trying to win the game for town because he wasn't really scumhunting and asked a scummy question was a tone read. Along with Jplap asking a question town wouldn't ask in that circumstance.

It says something about the quality of those reads that I can't remember the reason for 'em offhand. :/

Camo, I've read Zone's town game in the past and the fluff is also pretty omnipresent. It's not indicative of alignment I'd think.

This is a super awkward post coming from somebody who's supposedly got Camo as one of their main scumreads.

 

[PMJ]

It is 7 to lynch. Numbers in parentheses represent the post number of the vote.

@Professor_jplap - Celever (475) NP (596), scattered (607), Zone (622) L-4
Camoclone - Ability Effect (473) NP (477)
NP - Jabberwock (498) Jabberwock (583)
Drac - bbninjas (514) Jabberwock (550)
Keeper - Mariano (578)
bb - Celever (584)
Mariano - Drac (589)
Zone - Camo (616)

Not voting: Keeper, Luis, jplap

This is current as of post 634. The player with the most votes is tagged. Reminder that if two or more players are tied for most votes at the end of the day, there will be no lynch.

Day 2 ends Sunday, August 26, at 4 PM CDT (Timer) or whenever someone is lynched.

 

[bbninjas]

I should mention that I don't find Zone's response to Camo particularly satisfying, since Zone doesn't comment on why he hasn't been particularly firm (or committed) on the stances he chooses to take.

Didn't NP mention it? To gain favor of the indie questioneers. (Which are rather non-existent if you ask me.) NP said that Celever concluded that the scumteam are the indie questioneers in Post #617. Or at least that is what I thought NP had meant to say. If I am wrong, then I don't know what NP meant...

...I think I misinterpreted the context of your question, so my bad.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

This is a super awkward post coming from somebody who's supposedly got Camo as one of their main scumreads.

When your scumreads still have a large chance of flipping town, it's a good idea to help them in case they are town. You should know this, Jabber, so stop reaching.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

I just realized that Camo's case has words bolded in the quotes. I like the not wanting to dig in and follow up on question to get better reads point and the idea of playing with something to lose, again not sure how much stuff like a lack of confidence in reads is playstyle vs alignment, as I said it seems par for the course enough for him. Still probably is about neutral (just leaning scum rather than town this time); I'd much prefer any of the people under my scum line.

 

[Zone Q11]

I strongarmed a potential scum Jplap into telling the truth when I said yesterday that scum should still always tell the truth or they're making a large mistake.

Yep. It was this one. This ought to be enough to persuade jplap.

Yeah but the questions (and this is like Camo's main point) aren't really contributing. They're like asides that are designed to appear as though you're contributing, but don't actually add anything to the discussion either because the answer is a foregone conclusion or because it's just straight-up irrelevant.

Sigh... In that case I don't know what I am supposed to do in this game. I did what I was told, gave my reads, and already told you that I am weak at this.

-> If he is town, then I still don't understand his selfishness of "I know my bomb is more effective if I'm nightkilled, but I want to be alive to play the game".
-> If he is scum, then his "cooperation" is all stuff created by him to appear he brings useful and uncheckable information to us.

No defense on scum, but he did say that it was to make sure that everyone is not confused (like what happened with eevee).

 

[Scattered mind]

His sudden attack at me is... simply too odd. Then again, I never played with him, so I wouldn't know.

What’s odd? The way he presented the case or the case itself?

It’s kinda what I noted with some extra stuff. Best move to do right now if you are town is to focus on contributing. Being more decisive could be a good start, because without it, it is hard to take your reads in consideration.

I can see why Camo is so against read lists now. NP pointing me being the sole town read makes me feel like scum got a direction who to kill. I am not against read lists as a whole, but maybe it should be preferable to stick with those you read as neutral, lean scum and scummy. Especially if you have only one player as town in your reads.