Finished Mafia 53: Twilight's Kingdom

[bbninjas]

@Zone Q11 How's getting to know Camo? n.n''
I'd use words like 'extra aggressive', 'pushy', 'short', as well as, 'highly experienced', 'insightful', 'often accurate [when town]' to describe how Camo plays, so I'd recommend being extra careful before immediately writing him off as 'scum' / 'odd' / 'unhelpful' / 'annoying'.

If I am reading correctly, your reason for voting Camo is exclusively because:

- a) Camo is pressuring NP to be fully transparent (because he is not town-aligned)
- b) Camo is pushing hard for a NP policy lynch (because of the indie claim)

How are these indicative of Camo being mafian? (Same question @Keeper of Night) No comment on point b), and for a), you say that NP being transparent can only help scum - which doesn't make sense as a general rule. Indies inherently don't play towards the town's interest, and they may need to disrupt the town to achieve their wincon (despite what NP says), which means we need know as much as possible about that indie, to determine their potential to screw the town over. NP being transparent is beneficial for BOTH town and mafian.

(For the record, there is something about certain people's interaction with the indie that I think might be indicative, however I need to think through it first.)

 

[Zone Q11]

@Zone Q11 How's getting to know Camo? n.n''
I'd use words like 'extra aggressive', 'pushy', 'short', as well as, 'highly experienced', 'insightful', 'often accurate [when town]' to describe how Camo plays, so I'd recommend being extra careful before immediately writing him off as 'scum' / 'odd' / 'unhelpful' / 'annoying'.

Thanks, but I still don't see how turning a third party into a legitimate enemy is doing us any favors at all.

If I am reading correctly, your reason for voting Camo is exclusively because:

- a) Camo is pressuring NP to be fully transparent (because he is not town-aligned)
- b) Camo is pushing hard for a NP policy lynch (because of the indie claim)

How are these indicative of Camo being mafian? (Same question @Keeper of Night) No comment on point b), and for a), you say that NP being transparent can only help scum - which doesn't make sense as a general rule. Indies inherently don't play towards the town's interest, and they may need to disrupt the town to achieve their wincon (despite what NP says), which means we need know as much as possible about that indie, to determine their potential to screw the town over. NP being transparent

Because a) and b) only aggravates NP more. I would be surprised if he isn't angry right now.
Out of all of you, I trust NP the most to be working with us rather than the scum. I don't know how his meta looks like when he is indie, but I don't care much either.
I started to believe NP from the moment he revealed his role and I believe that he won't screw town over. What we are doing right now is creating the potential for him to screw us over.

 

[bbninjas]

Thanks, but I still don't see how turning a third party into a legitimate enemy is doing us any favors at all.

Do you think that "Camo aggravating NP" is a direct indication of Camo being mafian, as oppose to Camo just "not playing beneficially"?

 

[Zone Q11]

Do you think that "Camo aggravating NP" is a direct indication of Camo being mafian, as oppose to Camo just "not playing beneficially"?

Yes; Camo is straight up making an enemy with NP. That is not just "not playing beneficially", that is "a scum making more enemies for town".

 

[Celever]

Fine.

##UNVOTE
##VOTE: Luispipe8

Someone I'm in a mason chat with identified you as mafia with their role GG.

Yes; Camo is straight up making an enemy with NP. That is not just "not playing beneficially", that is "a scum making more enemies for town".

Antagonisation is a pressuring strategy.

Also I missed that NP didn't explicitly claim mass highlight of everyone who used an ability and assumed he did. The fact he has been ambiguous with that fact.... yeah doesn't make me wanna trust him. I'm confused why you want to, Zone, when NP has explicitly stated he will always take the best course of action that secures his survival. He has no allegiance.

 

[Zone Q11]

I'm confused why you want to, Zone, when NP has explicitly stated he will always take the best course of action that secures his survival. He has no allegiance.

It's simple if you think about it. He is the only one I know in this game. Anyone else I trust less because I don't know them yet.
There is also my belief that an non-threatening indie can always be beneficial for town than for scum, but it is mainly my trust that keeps me from suspecting him.

Antagonisation is a pressuring strategy.

What use will it have on an indie? It's not as if he will work with scum if he doesn't reveal his Ability, nor does it mean that he will work with us if he reveals his Ability.

Someone I'm in a mason chat with identified you as mafia with their role GG.

Welp. Alright then.

##UNVOTE
##VOTE: Luispipe8

 

[bbninjas]

Fine.

##UNVOTE
##VOTE: Luispipe8

Someone I'm in a mason chat with identified you as mafia with their role GG.

Think I know the answer for this, but for clarification's sake, why did you try to pursue the NP lynch if you knew that Luis was confo-mafia?

It's simple if you think about it. He is the only one I know in this game. Anyone else I trust less because I don't know them yet.

What are you reads on some other players, aside from NP and Camo?

What use will it have on an indie? It's not as if he will work with scum if he doesn't reveal his Ability, nor does it mean that he will work with us if he reveals his Ability.

Presumably Camo is being antagonistic to pressure NP into being transparent about his role (albeit, by psuedo black-mailing, a method that I'm a bit iffy about).

 

[Celever]

It's simple if you think about it. He is the only one I know in this game. Anyone else I trust less because I don't know them yet.
There is also my belief that an non-threatening indie can always be beneficial for town than for scum, but it is mainly my trust that keeps me from suspecting him.

Eh usually an indie interested in working with the town approaches relations with the town from a viewpoint of "I want to work with the town". NP approached it from a platform of ultimate self-interest because town is in the disadvantaged position right now.

What use will it have on an indie? It's not as if he will work with scum if he doesn't reveal his Ability, nor does it mean that he will work with us if he reveals his Ability.

No but it makes him show his cards. That's useful.

Think I know the answer for this, but for clarification's sake, why did you try to pursue the NP lynch if you knew that Luis was confo-mafia?

Because we lose with NP in MYLO and don't with Luis.

 

[Camoclone]

Post the ability @Zone Q11.

 

[Camoclone]

Oooop missed a page.
##UNVOTE:
##VOTE: LUISPIPE

 

[bbninjas]

Eh usually an indie interested in working with the town approaches relations with the town from a viewpoint of "I want to work with the town". NP approached it from a platform of ultimate self-interest because town is in the disadvantaged position right now.

To be fair, it's much more complex than that. NP knows that the mafian could nightkill him at any time (bar a bulletproof protection), because he is a threat at MYLO; he could work with the mafians, but that doesn't mean it'll save him. NP has more control over the lynch and so would (should) be more inclined to work with the town (especially if he has a bulletproof). Besides, a no-lynch (i.e. by lynching a killproof NP) means that NP has to survive for longer, and that is obviously not part of his wincon.

Because we lose with NP in MYLO and don't with Luis.

Not the reason I was expecting. How do we lose with NP in MYLO (and not with Luis)? In fact, it's a risky play to withhold that information - if you wind up dead before you could share it, we would quite possibly lose at MYLO with Luis around. >.>

 

[bbninjas]

An indie lynch is a pretty bad idea right now. It's Day 3, and we currently have 0 information on the mafian team - we need to be lynching likely mafians (i.e. NOT indies) to maximise the known information so we can scumhunt properly. Too often the mafians have reached MYLO with their entire team, and town never survives on that knife's edge.

@Camoclone What is your response to this?

 

[Camoclone]

@Camoclone What is your response to this?

I never said I wanted to lynch NP today. However I also crunched the numbers on lynching NP today and am completely fine with those odds. I don’t think they give us a significantly worse chance of winning since we are given two lynches tomorrow..

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Sorry if I'm missing something particularly significant, but why is claiming bomb a more innocent play? A mafian claiming bomb means that they have a reason for never getting nightkilled.

Keeper's tone when going about it and talking about the mindgames was quite believable.

The fact he has been ambiguous with that fact.... yeah doesn't make me wanna trust him

Wait? You don't want to trust me because of this new info you learned? What a new development! :O
Now why didn't you want to trust me before because I'm pretty sure exactly that was the reasoning you gave?

Presumably Camo is being antagonistic to pressure NP into being transparent about his role (albeit, by psuedo black-mailing, a method that I'm a bit iffy about).

Don't worry, if I was going to give that ability, it would have been through trust and friendly cooperation. I'm taking the lead of Keeper from Pirates and not letting Camo win through being this way.
That being said, I believe there actually are some things I'd consider indicative of scum Camo in his posts so let me try to dig them up before the day ends.

NP's Agenda Tone Reads>>Town so I'm glad to have a bit of vindication with Luis. Not voting so there's no premature hammer.

@Camoclone What is your response to this?

He doesn't care I posed the exact same thing to him. This is the main thing I consider mafia indicative, along with a bit of weirdness involving the Jplap lynch and the fact that Quaking's wagon onto Jplap D1 and beginning of D2 was bad.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

I never said I wanted to lynch NP today. However I also crunched the numbers on lynching NP today and am completely fine with those odds. I don’t think they give us a significantly worse chance of winning since we are given two lynches tomorrow..

If I'm lynched I'm definitely never using that ability. You'd only have one lynch the next day.

 

[Zone Q11]

What are you reads on some other players, aside from NP and Camo?

Well, now that Luis is confo-scum there are two (three tops) scum left. Camo is a scum in my book, so there should at least be one more... Since others are confirmed non-scum, that leaves me with Drac, Jabberwock and you.

Hm... yeah, I would have to go for Drac on this one. It is silly to say this, but my reason would be Post #646. It is silly because he couldn't have known Mariano's Ability, unless he is scum.

Presumably Camo is being antagonistic to pressure NP into being transparent about his role (albeit, by psuedo black-mailing, a method that I'm a bit iffy about).

No but it makes him show his cards. That's useful.

Ever thought that the pressure might be too much? If NP hands it over peacefully, then I have no problems, but it looks to me that everyone is pressuring him too much to do that.

Eh usually an indie interested in working with the town approaches relations with the town from a viewpoint of "I want to work with the town". NP approached it from a platform of ultimate self-interest because town is in the disadvantaged position right now

I don't know. I would have done what NP said if I was a confirmed non-threatening indie regardless of the condition of the game. This means that NP simply outted himself in the wrong time, but he couldn't have claimed until everyone was certain that he is a non-threatening indie, so there is nothing else he could have done.

 

[Camoclone]

You conveniently failed to post your ability.

 

[Camoclone]

If I'm lynched I'm definitely never using that ability. You'd only have one lynch the next day.

I’m fine with those odds too. They aren’t that different.

 

[Zone Q11]

Post the ability @Zone Q11.

Figures.

You conveniently failed to post your ability.

You did not even wait long enough...

Passive Ability: Emissary of the Crystal EmpireAs a sovereign nation, it is important for the Crystal Empire to maintain good relations with Equestria. Therefore, on night zero, you will automatically send out an emissary as a show of good will. At the end of the night, they will report back with the name of a randomly chosen player who is aligned with the Equestrian Defense Force. (You will not be told their role name.)

 

[NinjaPenguin]

10 minute PoE let's go:

Playerlist:

Spoiler: List

Keeper of Night
NinjaPenguin
GM DracLord
Camoclone
bbninjas
Mariano11887
Luispipe8
Jabberwock
Celever
Zone Q11

Mariano is quite likely town for claiming then. I think Zone is pretty likely town also, which then means Cel (and his mason buddy) are also town. I'm confirmed indie. That leaves us with:
Keeper of Night
GM DracLord
Camoclone
bbninjas
Luispipe8
Jabberwock

We get 4 lynches in this group, so we need to just identify two townies here. BB, Jabber, and Keeper I also think are likely town, but good mafia players so I'm unsure. So I'd say to lynch:
Luis->Camo/Drac->Other Camo/Drac->Have players reread interactions and judge in a BB/Jabber/Keeper F3 if it happens. Obviously if Cel's Mason buddy was somebody in the PoE, we could also take them out, making this even easier, but right now this is still good enough imo.