Finished Mafia LVII: Big Brother Betrayal: Game Over! Postgame Part 1 Up!

[JadeGemTM]

Also, Jade is town. Nice to have you here Jade.

Nice to be here and actually playing~

 

[Zone Q11]

I would take the honours yes. I would take the duty of it seriously.
But I doubt that anyone would trust me with it. Or dependand on what the competition entails that I'll be skilled enough to win it.
But sure. I'll try to get it cause I know that I can trust me.

You are correct about one thing: I won't entrust you with that position. Not because of your skills (which I know nothing about), but more because of your mindset. Considering 2 nominees will be forced to be chosen if the HoH doesn't choose, anyone who would choose you as HoH is basically asking for a wasted week or a random eviction.

Because I want to be an honest boy.

Wow. You really won't put up a fight huh? In that case, "honest boy", who do you think are scum? Forget that we already have a HoH and that both of us are nominees. Who are susp as heck?

3 - Gekki is neutral bc I don't feel like I have enough info on them to put them anywhere else. I will read back into him soon.
4 - Good question, I honestly don't know. I genuinely see Violet as scummy so as to why my sleep deprived self put her in the neutral zone is something I don't know and only he does. lol
5 - Mistake on my part. I wasn trying not to put anyone as sole "town" or "scum" and just leaning.

...alright then. You will be excused from your FoS from me.

6 - mirdo should definitely read the game. However, I do know my reason for keeping him neutral here. While he isn't being helpful, and barely contributing at all, which is scummy, I have also played games with mirdo in the past and this just kinda seems like classic him to me. Not that that should give him a break from not reading the thread, but yeah. That's why I put him neutral.

Hrm... Metareasoning... Well, I suppose it is fine then.
However, do you know of anyone else who's played or read games with mirdo in it?

That's uh, very deterministic. I can understand why you could see it casting me in a more scummy light (though I think it's due to forgetting about some of my posts), but I don't see in any way how the connection between the two of us is strong enough to be a if one is scum then so is the other; the connection between us is as strong as the connection between mirdo and Vom at best, which upon reflection now that I've slept I think I also phrased too deterministically at the time.

Nope. You are not getting away, pal. If I flip scum (which I unfortunately won't), then you will go to the chopping block with me. Also, if I flip town, I will also haunt you from the graveyard as well.

I know that Zone is a chaotic player, but I also know from past experience on and off this site that Zone is an experienced, intelligent player when he wants to be;

To be fair, I don't believe that I ever did that... I wonder what game made you think that tbh.

if we were both scum he would be more than able to sustain a paranoid metanarrative towards me and not treat me differently to other people in the game thread. Naturally in the scumchat we'd be bros tho U:

To be fair, I would still give you personal towncred simply by posting a lot of words. Aside from that, my paranoia simply hasn't kicked in until now because you were somewhat unrelated to me at the beginning. (If we're going back to the Gekki argument, then I swear I will ignore you until Week 3. ...if I am still alive by then.)

I also think that because we have some additional history off the site he knows my playstyle better than he does other people on the site and can probably see quite clearly that I'm town, if he's town. That's just a guess, though, since apparently since I last played Zone's decided to degrade as a player and now opts to behave like a chaotic newbie.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Chaotic newbie, I have always been.
But what about the other players who are also acting like chaotic newbies?
So far I see Violet, Gekki and Mirdo acting like one.
...oddly enough Nick is playing better than what my meta says about him. Who knows, perhaps he might be actual town this time.

I originally supported Zone's nomination, remember? Before Vom nominated mirdo, he was the frontrunner for me, and I was likely to vote Zone regardless of who the other player was (particularly because Vom was staging it to be Nick and Nick is towny). Once Vom nominated mirdo that casted doubt in my head towards mirdo, which is the part where I was torn, because I didn't just snap my mind from one target to the next at 180 degrees. Then upon reflection, I'm still leaning mirdo. But it's like, 65-35.

Uh-uh... I see. Well then, can you change that 65-35 to 10-90? I need to get lynched now or else I would be the cause of town's doom.

a mafian that's infiltrated deep into the town will never fully win Zone over

This here is where you are wrong. The instance you are speaking of has been happening a lot, ever since the time I played mafia at MU. First with PsychoSoldier666, and recently with Gekki from the game bbninjas hosted. Do you remember what bbninjas said? Gekki killed me because I susped him. The funny thing is though, that I had been changing my susps after my death. In fact, had he not killed me but Vom instead, then I would've susped TE because he "forgot" to RB Nyora.

TL;DR Your statement is incorrect and I am easy to be won over.

Also, Jade is town. Nice to have you here Jade.

Reasoning please?

Ima leave an FoS on Gekki for now because he he's contributed next to nothing so far and the little contributing he has done hasn't really been anything too useful :/

YES! BANZAI! \o/

Nice to be here and actually playing~

I agree. It really is nice to see a change of pace and meta.

 

[Geyde]

Shockingly enough this isn’t the first time something like that has happened. Everyone here who has played a game with me before will know how I play. Look back at previous games and see consistency if you wish.

1. Self-Meta as a defense.
2. References past games as a defense.

I'm leaning into the thought that you overextended your read and don't want to backtrack.
Have you even explained your thought process beyond 'I know how they play'?

 

[Geyde]

@Geyde, If you were HoH, who would you nominate today?

Nick / Mirdo.

 

[Celever]

Nope. You are not getting away, pal. If I flip scum (which I unfortunately won't), then you will go to the chopping block with me. Also, if I flip town, I will also haunt you from the graveyard as well.

Good thing I resist Ghost-Type then

To be fair, I don't believe that I ever did that... I wonder what game made you think that tbh.

The first impression was from the mafia championship and then your first games on this site were also good plays, though thinking about it that was what, 2 years ago now? More?

To be fair, I would still give you personal towncred simply by posting a lot of words.

This is what I mean. You never used to use these shallow, flawed by definition reasons in your reads that you're throwing out now.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Chaotic newbie, I have always been.
But what about the other players who are also acting like chaotic newbies?
So far I see Violet, Gekki and Mirdo acting like one.

None of those are acting like chaotic newbies. Violet doesn't like mafia, Gekki active lurks and mirdo plain lurks because when he does post it's 85% fluff. None of those cause chaos, they cause a vaccuum within which players like you might insert chaos.

Uh-uh... I see. Well then, can you change that 65-35 to 10-90? I need to get lynched now or else I would be the cause of town's doom.

No; have fun dooming the town. At least you're posting whereas mirdo barely is.

This here is where you are wrong. The instance you are speaking of has been happening a lot, ever since the time I played mafia at MU. First with PsychoSoldier666, and recently with Gekki from the game bbninjas hosted. Do you remember what bbninjas said? Gekki killed me because I susped him. The funny thing is though, that I had been changing my susps after my death. In fact, had he not killed me but Vom instead, then I would've susped TE because he "forgot" to RB Nyora.

TL;DR Your statement is incorrect and I am easy to be won over.

You're missing the point: your reads of players are only ever coincidentally related to alignment. In a game with this setup, with the nomination mechanic and sovereignty over those lynch options being passed round to individual players, that's a variable that scum necessarily should want to remove.

Reasoning please?

I'm finding it hard to make scribe his towniness, there's just ineffable radiation of town vibes from his posts.

 

[Celever]

1. Self-Meta as a defense.
2. References past games as a defense.

I'm leaning into the thought that you overextended your read and don't want to backtrack.
Have you even explained your thought process beyond 'I know how they play'?

Though a little cyclical, Nick make that exact point in every game he's been in. So using self-meta as a defense is his meta.

 

[Geyde]

I mean, I guess I really can't say anything about this since I haven't really been around, but this seems to be more like "Ima just lurk and not contribute anything while I could be." Idk, I've just been super busy while to me at seems like Violet here just isn't even trying to contribute.


Trying to hide from being HoH so as not to not be blamed for killing a townie? Idk, just something.


I mean this is fair but at the same time it is a mafia game o

K but also it isn't a BB game it's mafia, like I said above. Who says the person who will most benefit us with being HoH is someone who's played a lot of mafia though?


Yah, but like, it's that way with any mafia game?

From spending a decent bit of your post commenting on Violet's posts, why are you struggling to come up with anything beyond a neutral read on them?

Your first comment in response to their post is in and of itself a shadethrow, and does look like the start of a read. You make a distinction between your situation and theirs, making the point that their situation seems to be less justified.
The reason why this is important is that I can see the reasoning for why you could scumread them, and it's not represented in your readslist. It's strange.

 

[Geyde]

Though a little cyclical, Nick make that exact point in every game he's been in. So using self-meta as a defense is his meta.

As both alignments?

 

[Celever]

As both alignments?

Unsure; I want to say yes but I can't think of a specific example where he's done it as scum.

Can anyone who played in the last game remember him doing it?

 

[JadeGemTM]

On mobile right now so hard to do much atm. Just replying to this one question but will have more once I get home.
Aaaa quoting is being weird for me on mobile so @Zone Q11 in response to your question I’m not completely sure who else had played with Mirdo who isn’t in this game. bb, Cel, and Gekki would be your best bets. Maybe Morda as well? Maybe Nick?

Like I said, I’ll be back when I get home cause mobile sucks.

 

[Zone Q11]

Nick / Mirdo.

Wait. What? Why am I not in that list?

Good thing I resist Ghost-Type then

...pokemon references? Really now?
...in that case, my argument is: "Resist =/= Negate".
Jokes aside, your alignment will be an enigma after my death, and if I survive the lynch while you vote for me, then you will only put more pressure on yourself regardless.

The first impression was from the mafia championship and then your first games on this site were also good plays, though thinking about it that was what, 2 years ago now? More?

Oh. No wonder. That was the time before I got traumatized by mafia. When I was being forced to actually do my best even though I was a newbie...
Good ol' bad memories...

This is what I mean. You never used to use these shallow, flawed by definition reasons in your reads that you're throwing out now.

I may have a flawed-by-standard mechanics in my head, but that does not (completely) stop me from making normal reads though? For example, I am currently on to you, regardless of your alignment. And if I survive this week, then I will be sure to vote someone up who is against you. (Preferably also against me, but I have a bad feeling whoever I will choose is the same choice as Vom's...)

None of those are acting like chaotic newbies. Violet doesn't like mafia, Gekki active lurks and mirdo plain lurks because when he does post it's 85% fluff. None of those cause chaos, they cause a vaccuum within which players like you might insert chaos.

Okay... Ignore the chaos factor, and read them normally then.
-> I don't get it. I remember Violet being optimistic in playing mafia last game. How come you say that she does not like mafia? Where did she say it? Was this your own read on her?
-> Gekki actively lurking is never a good thing. No, really. Why are people not FoSing Gekki?
-> mirdo's posts are mainly fluff, but according to Jade, it is his meta. --question: Do you know anything about this?

No; have fun dooming the town. At least you're posting whereas mirdo barely is.

O-O
You are willing to let me doom town indirectly by simply letting me live!? What!? @bbninjas! Get over here! Help me convince Cel that he needs to vote me! And no, this is not sarcasm! Rather, can't we simply get Celever tomorrow!?

You're missing the point: your reads of players are only ever coincidentally related to alignment. In a game with this setup, with the nomination mechanic and sovereignty over those lynch options being passed round to individual players, that's a variable that scum necessarily should want to remove.

Oh. *re-reads what you said* Yep, in that case you are correct. As HoH, I would have no mercy to anyone whatsoever.

(Off topic: Hm... I feel as if someone in the future -probably bbninjas- will say something about me "suddenly" being hostile towards Celever after bbninjas pointed out that I don't question Celever being town even though I have an infamous reputation of being a paranoid... Oh well, we will see how this goes in the future.)

I'm finding it hard to make scribe his towniness, there's just ineffable radiation of town vibes from his posts.

Mm... Yeah, nothing to disagree with here. Kind of having the same vibes as well.
--more like, I never played any game with Jade where he doesn't sub out, so I don't even know his meta enough to know whether he is an experienced player or not.

On mobile right now so hard to do much atm. Just replying to this one question but will have more once I get home.
Aaaa quoting is being weird for me on mobile so @Zone Q11 in response to your question I’m not completely sure who else had played with Mirdo who isn’t in this game. bb, Cel, and Gekki would be your best bets. Maybe Morda as well? Maybe Nick?

Like I said, I’ll be back when I get home cause mobile sucks.

Hm... Alright. Thanks Jade!
*tags bbninjas, Celever, @GekkisaiDaiNi, @mordacazir and @TeamAqua4Life #HEYNICK*
So folks, what do you all know about mirdo's meta?

 

[Zone Q11]

From spending a decent bit of your post commenting on Violet's posts, why are you struggling to come up with anything beyond a neutral read on them?

Your first comment in response to their post is in and of itself a shadethrow, and does look like the start of a read. You make a distinction between your situation and theirs, making the point that their situation seems to be less justified.
The reason why this is important is that I can see the reasoning for why you could scumread them, and it's not represented in your readslist. It's strange.

In his defense, he did change his reads after I pointed it out.

Unsure; I want to say yes but I can't think of a specific example where he's done it as scum.
Can anyone who played in the last game remember him doing it?

Not from me. My meta only says that Nick's "present" at many games, but usually killed or lynched very often.

 

[Celever]

...pokemon references? Really now?
...in that case, my argument is: "Resist =/= Negate".
Jokes aside, your alignment will be an enigma after my death, and if I survive the lynch while you vote for me, then you will only put more pressure on yourself regardless.

Honestly? I'm not really worried about any of that. Any connection between us is still tenuous at best, unless bb comes in and demonstrates what he originally saw as our connection; I still think he just didn't understand the chronology of my reads on you and mirdo so far, or that he disagrees with my theory of mirdo and Vom and is conflating that disagreement with there being a connection between me and you. Either way I don't think it's anything substantial.

Oh. No wonder. That was the time before I got traumatized by mafia. When I was being forced to actually do my best even though I was a newbie...
Good ol' bad memories...

So now you spend your mafia games trying to traumatise other people? U:

I may have a flawed-by-standard mechanics in my head, but that does not (completely) stop me from making normal reads though? For example, I am currently on to you, regardless of your alignment. And if I survive this week, then I will be sure to vote someone up who is against you. (Preferably also against me, but I have a bad feeling whoever I will choose is the same choice as Vom's...)

My definition of normal reads is that the reads are based on either scumhunting or pretending to scumhunt if you are scum. You don't do that

Okay... Ignore the chaos factor, and read them normally then.
-> I don't get it. I remember Violet being optimistic in playing mafia last game. How come you say that she does not like mafia? Where did she say it? Was this your own read on her?

Me and Vi are good friends and mafia is pretty much her least favourite forum game. Sometimes she still signs up to play, but overall she's not really a fan.

-> Gekki actively lurking is never a good thing. No, really. Why are people not FoSing Gekki?

Because, though Gekki active lurking may never be a good thing, it's a consistent thing. FoS means "finger of suspicion", not "finger of snon-contribution"; there's nothing suspicious about Gekki active lurking because it's his NAI meta.

-> mirdo's posts are mainly fluff, but according to Jade, it is his meta. --question: Do you know anything about this?

I don't think mirdo has a meta because I think in order to have a meta you have to offer something to the game; mirdo does do that occasionally but not consistently throughout the game. He usually starts playing on Day 4.

O-O
You are willing to let me doom town indirectly by simply letting me live!? What!? @bbninjas! Get over here! Help me convince Cel that he needs to vote me! And no, this is not sarcasm! Rather, can't we simply get Celever tomorrow!?

Sometimes it's more fun to quarantine a bomb threat rather than disarm it :3

Oh. *re-reads what you said* Yep, in that case you are correct. As HoH, I would have no mercy to anyone whatsoever.

(Off topic: Hm... I feel as if someone in the future -probably bbninjas- will say something about me "suddenly" being hostile towards Celever after bbninjas pointed out that I don't question Celever being town even though I have an infamous reputation of being a paranoid... Oh well, we will see how this goes in the future.)

Eh I mean this is moreso idle discussion than anything else; some productivity, but most of this can't be read into much at all FMPOV.

 

[Geyde]

Wait. What? Why am I not in that list?

Because you are a policy lynch, and I found better targets.

 

[Zone Q11]

Honestly? I'm not really worried about any of that. Any connection between us is still tenuous at best, unless bb comes in and demonstrates what he originally saw as our connection; I still think he just didn't understand the chronology of my reads on you and mirdo so far, or that he disagrees with my theory of mirdo and Vom and is conflating that disagreement with there being a connection between me and you. Either way I don't think it's anything substantial.

The thing is, the connection between me and you is as substantial as your connection between mirdo, Vom and morda. The only difference being that I actively know of this, and am planning to enforce the connection. I am mentally forcing you to vote me. If you don't vote me now, you will be chosen tomorrow.

So now you spend your mafia games trying to traumatise other people? U:

Actually, I tried to do so within my homeforum... but then I realized that my homeforum's motto is literally "CHAOS!!" so then I became a bandwagonner, followed by a tunneler... and now I am a DA. ...sigh. Such is life. orz

My definition of normal reads is that the reads are based on either scumhunting or pretending to scumhunt if you are scum. You don't do that

So... you are saying that my FoS on Gekki and Violet are not normal scumreads? That all I have been doing so far is clog the thread?

Me and Vi are good friends and mafia is pretty much her least favourite forum game. Sometimes she still signs up to play, but overall she's not really a fan.

*insert unhappy face*
Her behavior of waiting and not scumhunting until much later is already unfavorable, but playing a game you like the least... That's just miserable.
*drops FoS on Violet*
*adds bad meta on Violet*

Because, though Gekki active lurking may never be a good thing, it's a consistent thing. FoS means "finger of suspicion", not "finger of snon-contribution"; there's nothing suspicious about Gekki active lurking because it's his NAI meta.

Yeah, well I never knew that. ...though now that I think about it, it does make sense as to why he was so inactive last game.
I won't drop my FoS on him though. I still think that it is very susp how he only said that only you were towny while giving no arguments about it.
My whole argument still stand.

I don't think mirdo has a meta because I think in order to have a meta you have to offer something to the game; mirdo does do that occasionally but not consistently throughout the game. He usually starts playing on Day 4.

Oh lord, you gotta be kidding me. @Vom! Did you or did you not know that you have put me with a pacifist whose work only kicks in at D4? If so, then Cel is right to FoS you.

Sometimes it's more fun to quarantine a bomb threat rather than disarm it :3

x_x
You are a madman, that's for sure.
Dunno what the heck happened to my memories and impressions about you, but you are basically acting as a DA as well.

Eh I mean this is moreso idle discussion than anything else; some productivity, but most of this can't be read into much at all FMPOV.

Mm... We shall see.

Because you are a policy lynch, and I found better targets.

Alright! Nice. I got one person locked on me, at the very least.
...wait, if that is the case why Nick instead of Violet or Gekki?

 

[Geyde]

Alright! Nice. I got one person locked on me, at the very least.
...wait, if that is the case why Nick instead of Violet or Gekki?

Read my posts for why I wouldn't nominate Violet.
Gekki hasn't posted enough content for me to make an educated push. It's basically a shot in the dark.

 

[Zone Q11]

Read my posts for why I wouldn't nominate Violet.

Will do.

Gekki hasn't posted enough content for me to make an educated push. It's basically a shot in the dark.

Understood.

 

[Zone Q11]

Read my posts for why I wouldn't nominate Violet.

...Geyde? I found nothing but two posts where you mention Violet.

lolvillage

In here you... basically only say this.

From spending a decent bit of your post commenting on Violet's posts, why are you struggling to come up with anything beyond a neutral read on them?
Your first comment in response to their post is in and of itself a shadethrow, and does look like the start of a read. You make a distinction between your situation and theirs, making the point that their situation seems to be less justified.The reason why this is important is that I can see the reasoning for why you could scumread them, and it's not represented in your readslist. It's strange.

And here you point out how odd it is that Jade think Violet is neutral... but your response was done even after he has changed his thoughts.

Basically, I found nothing about why you wouldn't nominate Violet.

 

[Celever]

The thing is, the connection between me and you is as substantial as your connection between mirdo, Vom and morda. The only difference being that I actively know of this, and am planning to enforce the connection. I am mentally forcing you to vote me. If you don't vote me now, you will be chosen tomorrow.

No; you're not mentally forcing me to vote you because I want to scumhunt, and believe voting mirdo is the potentially optimal way to do so. You're the safe choice, and that's boring in an unorthodox game where safety is merely perceived until NP makes it acid rain.

Actually, I tried to do so within my homeforum... but then I realized that my homeforum's motto is literally "CHAOS!!" so then I became a bandwagonner, followed by a tunneler... and now I am a DA. ...sigh. Such is life. orz

/patpats

So... you are saying that my FoS on Gekki and Violet are not normal scumreads? That all I have been doing so far is clog the thread?

Partially no...? Lemme just mental thread for a second: the definition of FoS is ostensibly who a player wants to see die. Ordinarily, people play to their WinCons, and so there's a perfect overlap, and FoS is a tool of scumhunting. In your case, because you're a DA and they inherently do not play only to their WinCons, when you FoS someone it can be for multiple different reasons. Therefore, while sometimes they may be normal scumreads, other times they may not be, and I have little time to try to distinguish between the two.

Oh lord, you gotta be kidding me. @Vom! Did you or did you not know that you have put me with a pacifist whose work only kicks in at D4? If so, then Cel is right to FoS you.

Exactly, thank you. mirdo is a really odd choice.

x_x
You are a madman, that's for sure.
Dunno what the heck happened to my memories and impressions about you, but you are basically acting as a DA as well.

Nono, I always play to my WinCon and adamantly so. It's just more interesting to me to try to harness the powers of the aurora borealis than it is to harness the powers of a light prism, even if it's impossible to do the former and possible to do the latter. Risk vs reward, more potentially payoff... plus this is a game to have fun with because it's unorthodox to such a degree.

 

[JadeGemTM]

From spending a decent bit of your post commenting on Violet's posts, why are you struggling to come up with anything beyond a neutral read on them?

Your first comment in response to their post is in and of itself a shadethrow, and does look like the start of a read. You make a distinction between your situation and theirs, making the point that their situation seems to be less justified.
The reason why this is important is that I can see the reasoning for why you could scumread them, and it's not represented in your readslist. It's strange.

Have you read my updated read list?