Finished Mafia LVIII: Project Fusion- GAME OVER: Mafia Wins!

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Zone Q11 said:
Uh... Are you telling me that NP has thought so far ahead, as to let Naga kill Drac (the one on V/LA!!) so nobody would ever suspect him!?

...hang on, this is some mad thinking here. This is... this is like 4D chess or something. :confused:
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I actually think NP is the only player for who it makes sense to kill Drac. I had this gut reaction at the beginning of the day and then backed off due to Nick's claim, but we're now at a point where it's relevant again:
The 3 most experienced players in the game are myself, NP and Drac (who is actually the most veteran player in the game). NP always finds it difficult to read Drac (and has said so much in this thread) which, conversely, means when NP is mafia, he struggles to form false cases on Drac also. I have the same thing; I always read Drac as a little bit towny even when he's mafia, so making a case on town!Drac when I'm mafia myself is a struggle. NP is the only player who shares this view as me (to my knowledge, the only other candidate would be you, Zone).

However, why not just kill me? After all, I don't think anyone questioned my alignment at the end of Day 1 (iirc Ephemera did so at the beginning of D2, but it may have been at the end of D1) except for NP himself, whereas Drac was a complete blank slate and could have came into the game and started acting scummy. Mafia knows that I haven't been acting scummy, and also that I'm experienced and can make 4D chess moves. I baited NP in the mason chat and (though I think quoting is bad faith and possibly against the rules), he said in a paraphrased sense that he "shaded" me to dissuade from mafia killing me (as in, he tried to paint me in a slightly scummy light so I wasn't a lock!town and therefore not the best scum kill). Why would NP be interested in keeping me alive? We have a mason chat, which he can attempt to use to pocket me.

In a lot of ways there's a lot of merit behind the Drac kill because it limits our information coming into today by keeping any confirmed player interactions to read through. I think NP and myself are the only players in this game who would come up with that strategy.

tl;dr The unique gamestate come the beginning of Night 1 lines a lot of things up to make the Drac kill make sense for NP. It makes very little sense for anyone else.
 
TeamAqua4Life #HEYNICK said:
We're talking about NP here, anything is possible
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...Nick, you know that when it comes to NP, I would do anything to get him dead.
However, I have "grown" as well. At the very least, enough to see when someone is planning to use me as a scapegoat.

We are in MYLO, and so if we mislynch, we would be dead. I will ask you this only once: Are you 100+% certain that NP is a scum?
 
Zone Q11 said:
Again, if NP is scum, then he would be a mad genius for letting his scumbuddy do the nightkill. Because his (NP's) reasoning is correct; he was seen as towny given from D1's EOD, so why wouldn't he be the killer!?
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The only two players that weren't townread come N1 have both flipped town, so the logic is actually subtly fallacious, as necessarily both members of the mafia faction were read as town at the end of Day 1.

We uh, really smashed Day 1 out of the park, guys :p
 
Celever said:
I actually think NP is the only player for who it makes sense to kill Drac. I had this gut reaction at the beginning of the day and then backed off due to Nick's claim, but we're now at a point where it's relevant again:
The 3 most experienced players in the game are myself, NP and Drac (who is actually the most veteran player in the game). NP always finds it difficult to read Drac (and has said so much in this thread) which, conversely, means when NP is mafia, he struggles to form false cases on Drac also. I have the same thing; I always read Drac as a little bit towny even when he's mafia, so making a case on town!Drac when I'm mafia myself is a struggle. NP is the only player who shares this view as me (to my knowledge, the only other candidate would be you, Zone).

However, why not just kill me? After all, I don't think anyone questioned my alignment at the end of Day 1 (iirc Ephemera did so at the beginning of D2, but it may have been at the end of D1) except for NP himself, whereas Drac was a complete blank slate and could have came into the game and started acting scummy. Mafia knows that I haven't been acting scummy, and also that I'm experienced and can make 4D chess moves. I baited NP in the mason chat and (though I think quoting is bad faith and possibly against the rules), he said in a paraphrased sense that he "shaded" me to dissuade from mafia killing me (as in, he tried to paint me in a slightly scummy light so I wasn't a lock!town and therefore not the best scum kill). Why would NP be interested in keeping me alive? We have a mason chat, which he can attempt to use to pocket me.

In a lot of ways there's a lot of merit behind the Drac kill because it limits our information coming into today by keeping any confirmed player interactions to read through. I think NP and myself are the only players in this game who would come up with that strategy.

tl;dr The unique gamestate come the beginning of Night 1 lines a lot of things up to make the Drac kill make sense for NP. It makes very little sense for anyone else.
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1) I am a sub, remember? I was subbed at D2, and I sure as hell would've killed NP were I to be scum.
2) You do realize you are basically supporting Nick, right? Fine, let me ask you this as well: Are you 100+% certain that NP is scum? I will repeat this as many times as possible, but we are in MYLO; we can't afford a mislynch.
 
Thinking about it it’s also way too dangerous for NP to commit the nightkill because his claim has two passive abilities instead of a passive and an active, so it’s needlessly risky on his end on the off chance he gets tracked or watched.
 
Celever said:
Thinking about it it’s also way too dangerous for NP to commit the nightkill because his claim has two passive abilities instead of a passive and an active, so it’s needlessly risky on his end on the off chance he gets tracked or watched.
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If he has 2 passives, then it's only risky if he gets tracked. Getting watched would benefit him instead.

--still waiting for the answer for the moment.
 
Zone Q11 said:
1) I am a sub, remember? I was subbed at D2, and I sure as hell would've killed NP were I to be scum.
2) You do realize you are basically supporting Nick, right? Fine, let me ask you this as well: Are you 100+% certain that NP is scum? I will repeat this as many times as possible, but we are in MYLO; we can't afford a mislynch.
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1) Yeah, but you subbed in for Jade for who it could also apply to. However, Jade was clearly inactive over N1, so this is moreso positing you as NP's potential scumbud rather than scum instead of him.
2) Actually, let's break down the effects of No Lynch. The effects are:
- One more player dies. This is likely Ephemera so as to reduce the suspect pool, but could also be myself, as my role is in some way provable and is only ever town. It would have been Nick, but Ephemera is protecting him. Mafia could also take this chance to kill someone so that we read into their interactions, but when done under obligation in a MYLO circumstance like this, it will always devolve into WIFOM and only acts to distract the town rather than inform us.
- Information roles, of which we have.... Nick. The only way this is useful is if @NaganadelIsBeast is both mafia and claims 2 passive abilities as well, in which case the night devolves into a double bluff between Nick and NP/Naga. Otherwise, the mafian with an active ability is simply the person who carries out the nightkill.

So actually under these circumstances, I'm happy to ##UNVOTE ##VOTE: NinjaPenguin
 
Finally, purely from a game design perspective, let's break down the seams surrounding the presence of a motion sensor. First, to entertain all possibilities:
NickxNP scumteam:
Every town player has an active ability, so the motion sensor is useless.

Nick mafia, NP town:
The only use of the motion sensor is targeting NP, seeing that he doesn't have an active ability, therefore informing the nightkill minorly that they perhaps shouldn't target NP in the early game because he's not a power role. That would be the extent of its usefulness.

NickxNP town duo:
The motion sensor is useless because every mafian has an active abilitiy they can use to verify Nick's information results without being found out.

Nick town, NP mafia:
It actually has a use because NP doesn't have an active ability to fall back on, and so if NP is caught by Nick performing the nightkill, he'd be found in a lie.

Therefore, assuming we don't have a completely useless role in the game, NP is mafia.
 
Celever said:
Finally, purely from a game design perspective, let's break down the seams surrounding the presence of a motion sensor. First, to entertain all possibilities:
NickxNP scumteam:
Every town player has an active ability, so the motion sensor is useless.

Nick mafia, NP town:
The only use of the motion sensor is targeting NP, seeing that he doesn't have an active ability, therefore informing the nightkill minorly that they perhaps shouldn't target NP in the early game because he's not a power role. That would be the extent of its usefulness.

NickxNP town duo:
The motion sensor is useless because every mafian has an active abilitiy they can use to verify Nick's information results without being found out.

Nick town, NP mafia:
It actually has a use because NP doesn't have an active ability to fall back on, and so if NP is caught by Nick performing the nightkill, he'd be found in a lie.

Therefore, assuming we don't have a completely useless role in the game, NP is mafia.
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...I am pretty sure that basing alignments off mechanics alone is suicidal. For more explanation, please read the following games:
Game 55 and Game 56, and ISO me.
 
Zone Q11 said:
We are in MYLO, and so if we mislynch, we would be dead. I will ask you this only once: Are you 100+% certain that NP is a scum?
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It all depends on the night phase how things go. I see NP as scum if Ephemera dies.

If anything, now that we've stated the main possibilities, scum will now have to think more carefully as they are treading on needles as to what they do.

There are two ways town wins at this point. The first is based on whether or not Ephemera ends up dead at this point, which I see no reason for scum not to target them given their ability. In the event that this fails due to awareness by scum or other circumstances, there is another way if scum makes a misplay.

To finish off, I will ask you this. Do you see NP as scum in any outcome of the night phase?
 
TeamAqua4Life #HEYNICK said:
It all depends on the night phase how things go. I see NP as scum if Ephemera dies.

If anything, now that we've stated the main possibilities, scum will now have to think more carefully as they are treading on needles as to what they do.

There are two ways town wins at this point. The first is based on whether or not Ephemera ends up dead at this point, which I see no reason for scum not to target them given their ability. In the event that this fails due to awareness by scum or other circumstances, there is another way if scum makes a misplay.

To finish off, I will ask you this. Do you see NP as scum in any outcome of the night phase?
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Unfortunately I made a mistake, thinking you were just a watcher/tracker together rather than a motion sensor. You would likely be better off targeting NP or Naga.
 
TeamAqua4Life #HEYNICK said:
It all depends on the night phase how things go. I see NP as scum if Ephemera dies.

If anything, now that we've stated the main possibilities, scum will now have to think more carefully as they are treading on needles as to what they do.

There are two ways town wins at this point. The first is based on whether or not Ephemera ends up dead at this point, which I see no reason for scum not to target them given their ability. In the event that this fails due to awareness by scum or other circumstances, there is another way if scum makes a misplay.

To finish off, I will ask you this. Do you see NP as scum in any outcome of the night phase?
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1) We have a major problem, because we are talking whether to lynch NP Today and not Tomorrow.
2) You only stated one way how town would win, and even that is pretty unclear as you only stated that "it depends on whether Mera lives or dies".
3) After I subbed in, you immediately groaned when I, the wild card, arrived. Clearly you know that I would see NP as scum no matter what --with the exception of a good argument (which was you).
So why do you even bother asking? To me, you (and NP's logic) are his only shield(s). Without you thinking that NP is town, I have only one other obstacle before I can tunnel him: the fact that we are in MYLO.
 
Day 2 Vote Count #5

4 votes for a majority
The player with the most votes is tagged
If you think there’s anything wrong, just ask

TeamAqua4Life #HEYNICK (1) - ZoneQ11, Ephemera
NaganadelIsBeast (0) - ZoneQ11, Ephemera
Zone Q11 (0)- NaganadelIsBeast
NinjaPenguin (1)- ZoneQ11, Celever
mordacazir (0) Celever, NP (auto unvote due to modkill)
Ephemera (0)- Celever
NoLynch (2)- ZoneQ11, TeamAqua4Life #HEYNICK , NaganadelIsBeast, ZoneQ11, TeamAqua4Life #HEYNICK

Not voting: NaganadelIsBeast , NP

Day 2 ends in 1 day and 18 hours from this post.
 
Celever said:
I actually think NP is the only player for who it makes sense to kill Drac. I had this gut reaction at the beginning of the day and then backed off due to Nick's claim, but we're now at a point where it's relevant again:
The 3 most experienced players in the game are myself, NP and Drac (who is actually the most veteran player in the game). NP always finds it difficult to read Drac (and has said so much in this thread) which, conversely, means when NP is mafia, he struggles to form false cases on Drac also. I have the same thing; I always read Drac as a little bit towny even when he's mafia, so making a case on town!Drac when I'm mafia myself is a struggle. NP is the only player who shares this view as me (to my knowledge, the only other candidate would be you, Zone).

However, why not just kill me? After all, I don't think anyone questioned my alignment at the end of Day 1 (iirc Ephemera did so at the beginning of D2, but it may have been at the end of D1) except for NP himself, whereas Drac was a complete blank slate and could have came into the game and started acting scummy. Mafia knows that I haven't been acting scummy, and also that I'm experienced and can make 4D chess moves. I baited NP in the mason chat and (though I think quoting is bad faith and possibly against the rules), he said in a paraphrased sense that he "shaded" me to dissuade from mafia killing me (as in, he tried to paint me in a slightly scummy light so I wasn't a lock!town and therefore not the best scum kill). Why would NP be interested in keeping me alive? We have a mason chat, which he can attempt to use to pocket me.

In a lot of ways there's a lot of merit behind the Drac kill because it limits our information coming into today by keeping any confirmed player interactions to read through. I think NP and myself are the only players in this game who would come up with that strategy.

tl;dr The unique gamestate come the beginning of Night 1 lines a lot of things up to make the Drac kill make sense for NP. It makes very little sense for anyone else.
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Lol this is totally ridiculous because it's predicated on a couple of bad assumptions:
1. Making a case on Drac is incredibly easy and Cel is just wrong here. Because he's so inactive, not vocal, and has eh reads, you can usually get him mislynched out of players' frustration or by using PoE as an argument. Look at last game for how easy it is to get Drac mislynched. Drac had no towncred and was squarely in the PoE. Also as a deepwolf, I don't kill somebody in the PoE because that makes people get suspicious of everything.
2. I couldn't have shaded you to stop myself from killing you because I didn't know who my neighbor was on D1. We only got that knowledge on N1 and by then it was too late to do anything like that.
 
Celever said:
Finally, purely from a game design perspective, let's break down the seams surrounding the presence of a motion sensor. First, to entertain all possibilities:
NickxNP scumteam:
Every town player has an active ability, so the motion sensor is useless.

Nick mafia, NP town:
The only use of the motion sensor is targeting NP, seeing that he doesn't have an active ability, therefore informing the nightkill minorly that they perhaps shouldn't target NP in the early game because he's not a power role. That would be the extent of its usefulness.

NickxNP town duo:
The motion sensor is useless because every mafian has an active abilitiy they can use to verify Nick's information results without being found out.

Nick town, NP mafia:
It actually has a use because NP doesn't have an active ability to fall back on, and so if NP is caught by Nick performing the nightkill, he'd be found in a lie.

Therefore, assuming we don't have a completely useless role in the game, NP is mafia.
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Wait wait wait what in the world are you talking about? We don't know Naga's role at all, do we? Unless you're informed in a way I'm not.
Also there's stuff like roleblockers that you know can exist as well as I do. Nick's claim can verify who those roles targeted (if he tracked you last night for instance it could be proven the roleblock is not something you fabricated), along with verifying stuff via its watcher function.
 
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