Humour me, if it doesn't get in the way of solving and stuff.
Extravagant basis? Can you make a little summary?
Finished Mafia LXI: Forest Fire: Game Over!
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Fair enough; quoting the posts below for reference.
The main points are that the use of "need," the apology to Celever, and the later use of "panic-vote"?
New players in general often feel like they "need" to cast a vote just because it's such an integral part of this game and they feel like if they aren't voting, they aren't really playing. @Vom you questioned at some point why she wouldn't just /not vote/? I genuinely don't think it had occurred to her that not voting was a legitimate option.
The name of the game — which, remember, we consistently tell new players to get them active on D1 — is essentially "cast a vote for whoever you think is the scummiest player." bb had already told her something to this effect like five times on D1 of this game. It's hardly surprising that she felt the need to cast a vote with time running out in the Day. Yeah her reasoning was flawed ("he already had the most number of votes") but even that makes sense from a new town standpoint; she trusted the majority.
The apology to Celever is a little weird, but new town does it as much as new scum. Ephemera even apologized to scattered mind for voting him as recently as #607.
"Panic-vote," I honestly have no idea. Idk Lily's mafia history, but somebody mentioned she had played at least one game before, and she was probably spectating at least one game prior to that. (I say this because that's how most new players end up joining mafia.) I think it's reasonable to expect that she saw the term somewhere else before. Either way I don't see how using a mafia slang term is indicative of alignment. You can reckon Mega told her to use it as a defense in the scumchat, but we've already established that scumchat coaching rarely happens in PB mafia.
scattered ...
- was cagey about his reads for most of the earlygame, and the only reason he ever gave was that he liked to keep things back to construct his own narrative and then see how it fit actual events, which is an inherently scummy thing to do
- essentially dropped Amici as a scumread between late-D1 and mid-D3, and then when questioned about his top scumread, brought Amici up again without any support but a reference to the earlier read (which he didn't consistently hold throughout D2)
- voted Celever in direct contradiction to a previously established belief he held about not eliminating lurkers
I see. The Day is almost over, so there's no harm in voting now. You could probably tell what I was doing there, but even if you did I do like how you answered that. Not entirely sure what exactly would've put me on your tail, but it sure wasn't there. If you're scum, Jabber, well played.
##F: scattered mind
I'll still be paying close attention, but that's where my vote is for now, and likely until EoD.
##F: scattered mind
I'll still be paying close attention, but that's where my vote is for now, and likely until EoD.
I mean, thoughts would be good if you have time, EoD is in 40 mins I think
Okay hi. I am very unsatisifed with Vom's defense. I also strongly disagree with Jabber's rebuttal of my scattered refutes. Both incoming.
@Jadethepokemontrainer Can you please skim-read this post where I case on Vom before your vote?
@Jadethepokemontrainer Can you please skim-read this post where I case on Vom before your vote?
I'll freely admit I didn't go back to read your case on Vom in greater depth like I said I would; on second look I realized it would be a big time sink and you later unvoted Vom anyway, so I assumed Vom had responded sufficiently and I moved on. I'll go do that now as well. Can we get a summary of the main points as well?
Trying, I'm slow.
Don't really get the points on Jabber. Something Lily did? @scattered mind why is your vote on Jabber?
Doing this now.
A very important fact about the scattered that I think explains why the Amici case disappeared late Day 2:
scattered questions a few different people in the first 24 hours.
scattered likes Mega's case on bbn.
scattered throws support on the bbn wagon.
bbn asks scattered lots of questions about their support of the bbn wagon
scattered focuses on the bbn wagon instead of the Amici wagon
Me asking scattered many many many questions about their support of the bbn wagon and scattered having to reconfirm and reconfirm and reconfirm their support for the bbn wagon would cement the bbn wagon as a very important wagon in scattered's mind and one of the main options for Day 2. I basically put my own wagon on the top of scattered's priorities. This explains the "scattered had another case to deal with"! I literally was forcing scattered to deal with it.
Vom one is the only weird one here, but one read not being explained does not make scattered=scum.
Which makes complete sense for reasons above.
scattered questions a few different people in the first 24 hours.
scattered likes Mega's case on bbn.
scattered throws support on the bbn wagon.
bbn asks scattered lots of questions about their support of the bbn wagon
scattered focuses on the bbn wagon instead of the Amici wagon
Me asking scattered many many many questions about their support of the bbn wagon and scattered having to reconfirm and reconfirm and reconfirm their support for the bbn wagon would cement the bbn wagon as a very important wagon in scattered's mind and one of the main options for Day 2. I basically put my own wagon on the top of scattered's priorities. This explains the "scattered had another case to deal with"! I literally was forcing scattered to deal with it.
Eph wagon was already being talked about it, so everyone would know what scattered means here.
Vom one is the only weird one here, but one read not being explained does not make scattered=scum.
scattered, today, has said in no uncertain terms that he realised that the wagon was not about Cel being a lurker. It was about Cel not cooperating. Different.
Which makes complete sense for reasons above.
@bbninjas Exhibit A checks out and is a very legitimate point. Exhibit B I'm less sure about; it's not that weird for somebody not to analyze an unvote when the new vote is generally the most relevant part of the post. Exhibit C (the hypothetical scenario) it would just take me too long to wrap my head around, and we don't have that time left in the day, but based on your tl;dr, I don't buy that bussing Mega was the only viable option for Vom-as-scum; she could very easily have just not and I don't believe anybody would really have questioned it.
You underestimate people too much - first the scumteam, now me - I'm not gonna let you bark up another wrong tree in MYLO.
Refute: Vom talked about everyone, including other players who didn't post very much interesting posts in Day 1 (i.e. Fiery and Jade). Mega is the only exception. In fact, I'd argue that Mega did many interesting things hence the 65+ mentions by 8 other players.
Defense 2: Mega put Vom at top, this can't be distancing.
Refute: Doesn't refute Vom's distancing. Regardless, Mega didn't explain this read, so yes it is distancing.
Refute: It seems that everyone was on your radar Day 1 except for Mega. Weird. Plus, you were tunnelling and picking apart nearly every Eph post. Eph comments on Mega in a really weird way. You didn't pick apart it. You pick apart 3 other (less) weird reads that Mega makes.
Defense: bbn didn't pick apart Eph's reads, why should I?
Refute: Fallacy. Vom was in the process of picking apart Eph's reads at the time - bbn was not. This circumstances are not the same.
Defense: Vom wanted to eliminate Mega more than bbn, bbn was off the table from the get go.
Refute: WIFOMy, if Vom voted me after their early Day 2 posts, I wouldn't be suprised. But Vom voted me and committed to my wagon long after the scattered wagon showed to have no steam, so I'm even less surprised if scum!Vom does this. As Vom agrees, voting bbn would never work.
Defense: I'm discrediting other cases based on me underestimating the scumteam.
Refute: No. I think Eph is talking about ways of voting that do not cross scumteam's minds. Scumteams do care about their votes, but not in the way Eph mentioned. This bus-point on you is about how much I think scum!Vom would think ahead into Day 3/4/5 and whether scum!Vom would want to be on the wrong wagon = I am giving scumteam lots of credit.
Vom's defense: Mega didn't post enough to do anything interesting.
Refute: Vom talked about everyone, including other players who didn't post very much interesting posts in Day 1 (i.e. Fiery and Jade). Mega is the only exception. In fact, I'd argue that Mega did many interesting things hence the 65+ mentions by 8 other players.
Defense 2: Mega put Vom at top, this can't be distancing.
Refute: Doesn't refute Vom's distancing. Regardless, Mega didn't explain this read, so yes it is distancing.
Defense: Mega wasn't on my radar.
Refute: It seems that everyone was on your radar Day 1 except for Mega. Weird. Plus, you were tunnelling and picking apart nearly every Eph post. Eph comments on Mega in a really weird way. You didn't pick apart it. You pick apart 3 other (less) weird reads that Mega makes.
Defense: bbn didn't pick apart Eph's reads, why should I?
Refute: Fallacy. Vom was in the process of picking apart Eph's reads at the time - bbn was not. This circumstances are not the same.
Vom agrees that mislynch on bbn would be dumb (NAI conclusion).
Defense: Vom wanted to eliminate Mega more than bbn, bbn was off the table from the get go.
Refute: WIFOMy, if Vom voted me after their early Day 2 posts, I wouldn't be suprised. But Vom voted me and committed to my wagon long after the scattered wagon showed to have no steam, so I'm even less surprised if scum!Vom does this. As Vom agrees, voting bbn would never work.
Defense: I'm discrediting other cases based on me underestimating the scumteam.
Refute: No. I think Eph is talking about ways of voting that do not cross scumteam's minds. Scumteams do care about their votes, but not in the way Eph mentioned. This bus-point on you is about how much I think scum!Vom would think ahead into Day 3/4/5 and whether scum!Vom would want to be on the wrong wagon = I am giving scumteam lots of credit.
Ultimately I'm just not convinced that Vom-as-scum would have bussed Mega there, and so I still assign her enough towncred that Exhibit A doesn't really stack up to it enough to convict her. I know you try to explain that away in Exhibit C, but there just is not time enough left in the Day for me to try and parse the whole extent of that part of the post.
Jabber because Fiery should not have said "panic-voting" (a mafia specific term) but "voted because I was panicing" (a non mafia term).
scattered I am convinced is town now.
I think Vom is much much much better because their is multiple scumtells (is it a coincidence that Vom ignored the only scum player Mega for an entire day? especially when Mega is the only player they ignored?) and as Vom has agreed with, scum!Vom had to bus scum!Mega in this scenario, so it's difficult to give Vom as much towncred as people want.
What? Is Vom part of the scumteam, or is she underestimating it? You can't have it both ways.
Reading the rest of the post now.
Well, there's certainly not enough time to answer all of that, but what I can say real quick is that you misunderstood me on the middle part - it's not that you didn't question Ephemera, you dind't question Mega - you were his towniest read after me.
How are you not convinced?
Vom has agreed that voting bbn as scum would never work.
I have explained that voting bbn was scum would cause a Mega lynch next, and Vom (or maybe scattered) would be next because they "saved" Mega.
This was from Vom's post sorry. I forgot to delete it while I was quoting.
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