You continue claiming that I AtE'd but never have actually explained how this is actually scummy. "cause AtE" is only a reason if you explain what is scummy about AtE, and then show how what I said meets this definition and thus is problematic.
The only reason you should care about being the only ones posting is if you're scumbuddies trying to stay out of the spotlight.
Yeah, I didn't say that. I said "b) so that we aren't the only ones posting."
It is WIFOM, so stop saying it isn't. WIFOM points are not good and really the only people that would promote using them as a scumread (which is what you're indirectly doing here) is scum.
Calling this a bandwagon is such a stretch. It's RVS...
I gave quaking the information because I may as well direct Quaking to the wiki, and an answer would make it less likely for someone else to answer later on and thus derail the thread.
Why, thank you. Now stop trying to latch onto someone who's being townread please.
If you noticed, I didn't mention any of the actual cases/pressures, just the abnormal things. That's why I said that Jade needs to read up themselves.
tl;dr
Regarding this "lots of fluff":
You quoted one (if I counted correctly) instance where I apparently posted fluff, which certainly isn't "lots of fluff", nor is that representative of the majority of my posts (which contribute). The instance you quoted was "I assume you checked out your character on the wiki as soon as you got your role?", which actually was part of my first scumhunt of the game. The question was necessary for this, because if quaking had NOT checked the wiki beforehand, the discussion he suggested would not have been particularly suspicious. Just because I haven't stated the reason for asking a question doesn't make that question fluff.
Regarding promoting WIFOM: I never promoted WIFOM.
Regarding buddy-buddy plays: You stated of a single play, not multiple plays. Not withstanding that, you base this claim on a post that you misread.
Regarding rolefishing: you also didn't say anything about rolefishing in regards to me in your ISO.
Gekki, in your arguments, you mention fluff multiple times, but explain this to me, how is posting fluff scummy/bad for the town and what do you define as fluff?
Because he's done other scummy things, therefore I assume this is what he's doing here. It was a weak point anyways, hence why I didn't even include it in the TLDR.
Gekki, in your arguments, you mention fluff multiple times, but explain this to me, how is posting fluff scummy/bad for the town and what do you define as fluff?
Fluff is useless posts that don't accomplish anything. It's scummy because it's distracting and doesn't add to the conversation, especially in large amounts.
Alright. In this situation, if a townie was suspicious of either of us and had a phantom vote to use, why wouldn't they post a fake vote in thread explaining why they voted or reasoning at that point, instead of doing it silently?
Rolefishing is generally defined as baiting a player to give information about their role. What part of me asking about potential roles could be misconstrued as rolefishing?
You were rolefishing in a different way. By asking about potential roles, you could find multiple things involved with the setup of the game, like if there are cops/vigs, or other power roles like that, then use that info to try and find those roles by reading posts more critically in order to find who's who. This is scummy because you could be trying to figure out the best option for a nightkill. However, now that I think of it, it could also be townie since finding info on scum power roles would be useful for the town.
You continue claiming that I AtE'd but never have actually explained how this is actually scummy. "cause AtE" is only a reason if you explain what is scummy about AtE, and then show how what I said meets this definition and thus is problematic.
AtE is scummy because it's confusing. Sometimes it's genuine, sometimes its scum trying to save themselves. You AtEd here: "now that you've met the traditional requirement of voting for me". That's AtE because it comes across as you being exasperated with all the votes on you. I personally don't think it's scummy because your wagon was ridiculous at that point, and it was understandable to be exasperated with it. But, it could be scummy, because you could be scum trying to get votes off you.
Calling this a bandwagon is such a stretch. It's RVS...I gave quaking the information because I may as well direct Quaking to the wiki, and an answer would make it less likely for someone else to answer later on and thus derail the thread.
Constantly saying "Gekki, that was townie, this was townie, I'm reading Gekki as townie". It's not really scummy, it just doesn't rub me the right way. Feels like you're trying to get me to trust you.
D1 is the day for flimsy logic and weak points, and it's the one thing I dread about mafia because there's little actual scum hunting. But there're many opportunities to find non-flimsy logic, even though most of it will be.
You were rolefishing in a different way. By asking about potential roles, you could find multiple things involved with the setup of the game, like if there are cops/vigs, or other power roles like that, then use that info to try and find those roles by reading posts more critically in order to find who's who. This is scummy because you could be trying to figure out the best option for a nightkill. However, now that I think of it, it could also be townie since finding info on scum power roles would be useful for the town.
So which is it? If you can't decide, and this is really the only thing you have going for a scum read on quaking then why are you pursuing this? This is really flimsy logic, and though it's abnormal, quaking's the type to try and gouge as much information out of any source he can as much as possible. It's a bit weird to see him do it like this, but I can't say it surprises me.
AtE is scummy because it's confusing. Sometimes it's genuine, sometimes its scum trying to save themselves. You AtEd here: "now that you've met the traditional requirement of voting for me". That's AtE because it comes across as you being exasperated with all the votes on you. I personally don't think it's scummy because your wagon was ridiculous at that point, and it was understandable to be exasperated with it. But, it could be scummy, because you could be scum trying to get votes off you.
You just explained how this point doesn't work. Any players with experience with votes on him were going to move their votes elsewhere, scum or not (to either keep town safe or hide themselves). Scum or not it's fair to be exasperated with a lot of votes, especially how many BB had so early.
Constantly saying "Gekki, that was townie, this was townie, I'm reading Gekki as townie". It's not really scummy, it just doesn't rub me the right way. Feels like you're trying to get me to trust you.
This isn't scummy. It's based on "rubs me the right way" and "feels like", it's not something you can prove with evidence, and I don't think this is a valid scum tell.
I'm noticing something, a lot of Gekki's reads are based on how he reacts to it and how the actions make him feel. A lot of his points on BB and quaking are points where his scum read is based off of how it makes him feel, or what ifs.
It takes a majority of 7 to lynch.
In the event of the majority vote isn't achieved, the person with the highest vote will be lynch.
In the unlikely event of a tie, an RNG will be use to decide the lynch candidate.
It's early day 1, what did you expect? I know the case is somewhat weak, and assumes alot, but it's the best option at this point IMO.
No one is openly scum-reading me, so I assume I'm being townread.
Because he's done other scummy things, therefore I assume this is what he's doing here. It was a weak point anyways, hence why I didn't even include it in the TLDR.
Fluff is useless posts that don't accomplish anything. It's scummy because it's distracting and doesn't add to the conversation, especially in large amounts.
Maybe they have. You and BB have multiple votes on you.
You were rolefishing in a different way. By asking about potential roles, you could find multiple things involved with the setup of the game, like if there are cops/vigs, or other power roles like that, then use that info to try and find those roles by reading posts more critically in order to find who's who. This is scummy because you could be trying to figure out the best option for a nightkill. However, now that I think of it, it could also be townie since finding info on scum power roles would be useful for the town.
This is actually a good point.
AtE is scummy because it's confusing. Sometimes it's genuine, sometimes its scum trying to save themselves. You AtEd here: "now that you've met the traditional requirement of voting for me". That's AtE because it comes across as you being exasperated with all the votes on you. I personally don't think it's scummy because your wagon was ridiculous at that point, and it was understandable to be exasperated with it. But, it could be scummy, because you could be scum trying to get votes off you.
The difference being?
Where did you say the opposite?
It is a stretch, but when there are so many people to RVS, why the person who was just voted? As to the rest of this part, alright. That makes sense.
Constantly saying "Gekki, that was townie, this was townie, I'm reading Gekki as townie". It's not really scummy, it just doesn't rub me the right way. Feels like you're trying to get me to trust you.
Quaking asking for info on roles was an abnormal thing.
Literally this case has devolved into "I think it could be scummy even though it may be townie". None of your points remain besides that, and I think this is a good time to move on and pursue a new lead. Oh, and there's also the AtE. We lynched SS D1 in Jesi's game for asking people to back off a RVS wagon that put him at L-2 in a semi-AtE way, and he flipped town, if you want to know why that logic doesn't work at all.
I find this case to be a great example of your playstyle as a whole: extreme tunneling and way too much sureness in your own reads.
##UNVOTE ##VOTE: Gekki. Before you call out OMGUS, please read the actual case, and the FAQs.
tl;dr
- selective reading/scumhunting (choosing only certain points to respond to, "misreading" the same information twice)
- inconsistent logic (I addressed the major points, yet he continues to call the case the "best option"; suddenly interpreting my AtE as potentially scummy)
- inconsistent scumhunting (uses exaggerations and WIFOM, which is unlike his early day play)
Gekki has selected mostly my questions to respond to, and ignored my points that call out or invalidate his points. He claims that the strong points are "buddy-buddying, fluff, promoting WIFOM and rolefishing", yet only responds to the stuff on promoting WIFOM, and only to clarify what I said. This selectiveness twists the case so it appears more viable and has substance.
Despite those major points not being readdressed by Gekki, he continues to call the case "the best option". How can it be the best option if he can't readdress the main points? Furthermore, Gekki responded to some of the posts with a simple "that makes sense". If Gekki thought my responses to those major points did in fact make sense, why didn't he respond to say that like he did with others? This is inconsistent logic and is further indication of manipulation.
[...regarding AtE] I personally don't think it's scummy because your wagon was ridiculous at that point, and it was understandable to be exasperated with it. But, it could be scummy, because you could be scum trying to get votes off you.
Talking about inconsistent logic, Gekki's logical progression regarding how scummy my "AtE" is also inconsistent. Notice how Gekki indicates throughout these posts that the AtE probably means nothing, yet suddenly in this last post claims it could (maybe) still be scummy.
Gekki has also used many exaggerations and some WIFOM in this case (specific examples in the spoiler). This is inconsistent with his scumhunting and comments earlier in this day, which would interpret posts as they were, and certainly not exaggerate what was said in the posts. Additionally, when deciding how to interpret a post in WIFOMy situations, Gekki would focus nearly exclusively on the scenario which is more likely.
"Why the bandwagon?" - calling my RVS vote on NP a bandwagon is a very significant stretch. "considering you two were the most pressured coming out of early D1." - We were certainly not the most pressured coming out of early D1; I at least only had RVS votes on me. I'd say TSL and Fiery were "most pressured". "-Buddy-buddy plays" - note the plurality, when Gekki implied maybe one example of buddying. "-Lots of fluff" - Gekki does not give examples of lots of fluff. "-Some legitmate points & helpful posts" - under-exaggeration; only some helpful posts?
"I know the case is somewhat weak," - only "somewhat weak"? This is strange considering he didn't readdress any of the points he considered major. "[fluff is scummy], especially in large amounts." - again, Gekki never gave examples of lots of fluff. "Constantly saying "Gekki, thatwas townie, this was townie, I'm reading Gekki as townie". " - I believe I said this once. Not "constantly".
"Could also belong to a townie who was suspicious of you, considering you two were the most pressured coming out of early D1." - if someone actually has a secret vote, that is a scummier role, not a townier role, so scummy WIFOM here. "This [rolefishing of NP] is scummy because you could be trying to figure out the best option for a nightkill. However, now that I think of it, it could also be townie since finding info on scum power roles would be useful for the town." - self-explanatory "But, it could be scummy, because you could be scum trying to get votes off you." - this is already problematic because it is a logical inconsistency, but as it is the more unlikely scenario, it is scummy WIFOM too.
It is WIFOM, so stop saying it isn't. WIFOM points are not good and really the only people that would promote using them as a scumread (which is what you're indirectly doing here) is scum.
Gekki claims that "I promote using WIFOM as a scumread", when this clearly is not what I was doing here and here. Anyone can miss things, so I'd normally give benefit of the doubt. However, misinterpreting two separate posts indicates not paying attention (unintentional) or selective reading (intentional). Scum don't pay attention as much since they're not the ones needing to develop reads (towns naturally pay attention to do this). Selective reading is manipulative. Eitherway, this is scummy.
FAQISs: [Frequently Asked Question-Implied Statements] Q: This is OMGUS!
A: Ah, no. Before anyone screams OMGUS, I ask you to read my ISO/case properly, and then read what OMGUS actually means, before you apply it to this situation. Just like WIFOM, OMGUS is both an overused term and a term too often used incorrectly.
Q: bb, you were town-reading Gekki before! This is so inconsistent!
A: Remember that reads change, especially in Day 1 when information on a player rapidly is becoming available. Of course, it would be inconsistent and scummy if my logical progression was inconsistent, such as if reads changed without any tells/reasons to back it up, or at a weird time in the progression.
Q: But you said he was scum-hunting townie before, yet now you say he's scum-hunting scummily...
A: Scum-hunting when you're scum and know who the town are is one of the most difficult aspects of being mafia, because you're constantly having to reproduce how a townie would respond. Naturally it would be easier to maintain that facade when you have to use it less, such as when you're scum-hunting less posts (e.g. early Day 1). However, when you have to put on the facade more (e.g. when developing cases), it is much more difficult to accurately and consistently produce townie responses on every single post you ISO. These inconsistencies showed through via the case, hence my reading changing now.
Because he's done other scummy things, therefore I assume this is what he's doing here. It was a weak point anyways, hence why I didn't even include it in the TLDR.
Only "somewhat weak"? Only "assumes a lot"? You have failed to respond to my points on these "other scummy things" that further invalidate this case (and these assumptions), yet still claim this case to be a great - the best - option for Day 1. That is being selective, or manipulative, and that is very scummy.
Fluff is useless posts that don't accomplish anything. It's scummy because it's distracting and doesn't add to the conversation, especially in large amounts.
That I misinterpreted your post and thought you were implying we wanted to be the only ones posting "e.g. care about being the only ones posting" (which is the opposite of what I said), and that misinterpretation happened because I've never before seen someone draw the conclusion you did. That conclusion doesn't make sense anyway, because if anything, scum like being the only ones posting because it means they are influencing the town more. (Even then, it is still a very flimsy argument.) What I did was pro-town because it encourage more people to post so I can actually develop reads on them (hence why I cared); that is not anti-town as you claim.
And here; "Quoting WIFOM as the reason for dismissing a lead is lazy." [And then I explain why.] Here; "To repeat myself, writing something off as WIFOM is lazy. " [And then I explain why.]
This is not "promoting WIFOM" as you claim; it is practically the opposite.
It is a stretch, but when there are so many people to RVS, why the person who was just voted? As to the rest of this part, alright. That makes sense.
Constantly saying "Gekki, that was townie, this was townie, I'm reading Gekki as townie". It's not really scummy, it just doesn't rub me the right way. Feels like you're trying to get me to trust you.
Fluff is useless posts that don't accomplish anything. It's scummy because it's distracting and doesn't add to the conversation, especially in large amounts.
Alright, but, at that point, bb and me discussing my question was the conversation though. There wasn't another conversation to distract from, to the point where you felt you had to enter the conversation, so how can you really claim that it's fluff?
But no one had voted for both of us at that time, so assuming the likely conclusion that this vote belongs to one person, no one fulfills this criteria.
You were rolefishing in a different way. By asking about potential roles, you could find multiple things involved with the setup of the game, like if there are cops/vigs, or other power roles like that, then use that info to try and find those roles by reading posts more critically in order to find who's who. This is scummy because you could be trying to figure out the best option for a nightkill. However, now that I think of it, it could also be townie since finding info on scum power roles would be useful for the town.
And by knowing the names of characters and their alignments in the show, I could figure out what power roles were in the game based on brief summaries of the characters, and then figure out each person's role by reading their post and arbitrarily assigning them a character based off of the info I received? Surely you see the big gaps and assumptions in your logic.
I'm going to ##Unvote right now, since NP was just an RVS vote and I have no reason to keep it on him at this point in time.
Right now I haven't heard enough from most people to get enough reads, but PinApl seems to be the most scummy of those that are inactive to me right now.
Right now I haven't heard enough from most people to get enough reads, but PinApl seems to be the most scummy of those that are inactive to me right now.
It hasn't been on the forefront of the conversation, since Gekki's case happened, but it is important for everyone to be posting and keeping up with the game.
It takes a majority of 7 to lynch.
In the event of the majority vote isn't achieved, the person with the highest vote will be lynch.
In the unlikely event of a tie, an RNG will be use to decide the lynch candidate.
Alright, I thought we had more time, but I checked the countdown and, uh, we have less than a day left. I'm putting up reads. Of course most of these reads are weak because it's day one, but whatever.
TOWN
- mordacazir ~ He's acting normal, his usual fairly inactive self. Town
- NinjaPenguin ~ His actions don't fit his scum meta, besides that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Weak Town
NEUTRAL
- bbninjas ~ There're some valid scum points on him, but he's rebutted them well. But he's always someone I've had trouble reading at all. Neutral, Town Leaning
- quakingpunch73 ~ Was going to put him down as townie for trying to get information on flavor, but then I remembered him trying to get information is NAI for him. Neutral
SCUM
- scattered mind ~ Pushing a bad case on a new player, and keeping it up. Weak Scum
- GekkisaiDaiNi ~ Flimsy cases, overblown actions, this is Askr all over again. Scum
Anyone I didn't mention is too inactive for me to read.
This links to lordes post, is that correct?
Also, I’ve watched fairy tail and so know most of the characters names and powers if you guys want a quick summary of everyone I could give you one.
Right now my top scum read is Gekki, because of all of what BB said. So: ##vote: gekki
I'd suggest not for reasons mentioned prior; it distracts from the scumhunting and lorde is right, we're running out of time. Some content might be useful in future when people start claiming, though.
@everyone; people need to vote at best, and comment on the cases put forward at worst. If we lynch town, we need information to go off going into the next day. If you're not responding to the Gekki case because you're worrying about "giving Gekki a response", then don't be worried. The points either are solid and Gekki's response won't change their merit; or they're rubbish, in which case most people would figure that out anyway; or there's nothing you can respond to because they're very specific to Gekki in the first place. Either way, you responding has much more benefits than any of the remote disadvantages.
You were promoting WIFOM, by saying writing something off as WIFOM is lazy, because that gives people an excuse to make WIFOM-y points (because they will know people won't want to write it off as WIFOM).
I have answers for all of bb's case, and not enough time to type them. Wait until later before piling on my wagon, please.
You were promoting WIFOM, by saying writing something off as WIFOM is lazy, because that gives people an excuse to make WIFOM-y points (because they will know people won't want to write it off as WIFOM).
He said WIFOM was lazy, he wasn't promoting it. He was basically saying it should stop being used so excessively, which is the exact opposite of what you're trying to say.
I have answers for all of bb's case, and not enough time to type them. Wait until later before piling on my wagon, please.
It takes a majority of 7 to lynch.
In the event of the majority vote isn't achieved, the person with the highest vote will be lynch.
In the unlikely event of a tie, an RNG will be use to decide the lynch candidate.
