Finished Mafia XLVIII: Motfia

[GrandPanacea]

Oh my god first time surviving past N2 since Dazzling Star. Holy crap, that was like 7 months ago

Grats! (I realize that this is fluffy, but we can't talk about the game outside of the thread, and I legitimately wanna say congrats.)

 

[JadeGemTM]

... I'm not hip to the lingo. What's an ISO? Does it hurt?

I believe ISO stands for isolation. Basically when you quote most/all of one players posts, giving your opinion on them/explaining why you think they are scum.

Like I said before though, I probably won't have a chance to do that for a while.

 

[JadeGemTM]

Hehe. Add an S to this and I become Grand Pancreas.

Grats! (I realize that this is fluffy, but we can't talk about the game outside of the thread, and I legitimately wanna say congrats.)

Any other thoughts on the (very short) day so far? Nin being scum, etc.

 

[GrandPanacea]

Ohhhh, right, BB did one of those, iirc?

As for thoughts, I agree with the Nin suspicion. I was wary of Mariano, too.

 

[simsands]

One was made against him...

 

[GrandPanacea]

One was made against him...

Err, right. Either way, I know What are now.

 

[Lorde]

Have you used your ability? and if so, who?

Mariano N1, Nin N2. I didn't think someone would be caught like that, especially my target, but they were.

SMod here: We have been having site issues, and some people were unable to quote, and most, if not all, were unable to copy and paste. Regardless of how I feel about Lord in this game, I'm gonna go to their defense on this.

@NinjaPenguin

 

[NinjaPenguin]

What does that have to do with me choosing to switch my choice between Nin and BB? I tried destiny bonding Mariano N1 because I thought I would die and he was scummiest after Gekki was lynched.

Well this is what I was looking for you to say or not the whole time, because it contradicts with TLS's result... until I just remembered Sim was a roleblocker.

I believe ISO stands for isolation. Basically when you quote most/all of one players posts, giving your opinion on them/explaining why you think they are scum.

Like I said before though, I probably won't have a chance to do that for a while.

That's terrible mindset on an ISO. You shouldn't go into an ISO having an alignment in mind. You ISO them to determine that. (ISOing for a case is more making a case than a real ISO.)

Mariano N1, Nin N2.

Cool. Thanks for saying this because noting the N2 does make me believe you more.

To everyone: the copy/paste workaround rn is pasting into the BB code editor.

 

[GrandPanacea]

That's terrible mindset on an ISO. You shouldn't go into an ISO having an alignment in mind. You ISO them to determine that. (ISOing for a case is more making a case than a real ISO.)

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Lorde]

An actually necessary post saying we need an activity boost. Only 2 posts all day is ridiculous.

Well this is what I was looking for you to say or not the whole time, because it contradicts with TLS's result... until I just remembered Sim was a roleblocker.

His result being that I didn't visit N1?

 

[NinjaPenguin]

@The Last Shaymin
@simsands
@NinJamezor
Talk and stuff. Now, I'm gonna start actually working on a BB ISO.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Day 1 BB ISO:
Here are all of his posts. I'll color flipped townies he refers to as green, and Jade/NinJamezor as orange (since one is scum). When an interaction is worth commenting on, I'll comment on it. When it's not, I won't.

Spoiler: [QUOTE="bbninjas, post: 2920886, member: 104294"

Who here likes cake? :3

[/QUOTE]

You Dirty Stinking Cake Thief!

##VOTE: TLS

What deeeelicious cake!


How elaborate.

This is where, in hindsight, I should have started the alarm bells. Gekki had the bad mindset, but BB here has a quite similar one.

Lies!

##UNVOTE ##VOTE: Ninja Penguin

I was still planning on use that one!! You dirty stinking gif-stealing cake thief!

What's even the point of RVS, Gekki?

No, there wasn't a particular reason for it.

Jade, you're planning on posting something, yes? Or are you going to lurk?

As someone who iirc dislikes lurking callouts (especially without a tag), this seems unnecessary unless he thinks it will help scum. I can't tell what alignment it specifically would lead to though.

I was going to say that Gekki is virtually the only person playing pro-town (deja vu, anyone? xD), but got called to do a chore before I could post, and returned to see a mini-explosion of posts, so I'm happy.

In all seriousness, pro-town play right now is to post at least 50% of the times you check this thread, and fluffy posts are absolutely fine atm! This is a 72 hour day, so we don't have the time to sit around waiting for people to post stuff. Dx

I don't see any problem with 2 posts with no RVS vote, honestly.

Oh wait...

I swear I've been framed!

Got nothing else to really say? That post doesn't actually add anything - not fluff, not anything - to the discussion flow

Two new pages of posts! Now that is what I like to see! I also see that Jade made a rather odd statement and T_E is... being interesting.


The idea is to stop people being like "I better not post anything because it'll just be fluff and then I'll be lynched" because that is false. You'd be surprised at how much fluffy posts move the game forward anyway.


There could be a scum slip from it? That is a weird expectation to have of RVS and fluff. ##UNVOTE: someone ##VOTE: Jade


Let's not! Why did you suggest this?

This pressure for little to no reason looks good for Jade imo.

It could happen in maybe 1 in 35 games, and so it is a odd choice of a reason to explain why fluff could be useful.

I'm not sure why you're saying this tbh


What do you consider OMGUS again? Remember, this is a new player (so let's not repeat the discussion we had last game ).

Okay, fair enough. You posted fluff, and fluff is fine atm, but to avoid getting caught up with definitions, I do think there's something different to note here: your post consisted of 1) a reason as to why people think you could be "lurking" 2) an obvious statement saying that you are now here.

No random votes
No random comments on people
No random comments on the discussion you weren't around for

You hadn't been around for a while, and so that is all stuff you could have easily done. The weird thing is that there's no comment on stuff that isn't about or directed at you, fluffy or otherwise.


I'm a bit confused, how is Jade drawing attention to himself?

Of course you can paste. :U

Am I not special enough to get my name abbreviated?

What do you hope to achieve from voting TE and asking this question? TE is new and I wouldn't be expecting them to be strategising at this level?


The "you could get scumtells"? I really don't think that Jade intended to have that prompt questions and discussion; it feels throw-away to me.

@Mariano11887 There's a likelihood that we'll be waiting a while for TE to respond, so waiting around for his response won't be a very efficient strategy for finding the best lynch today.

I'm not expecting a vote.
No comments on the rest of us, then, Mariano?

Interesting there's no pursuit on this when he flipped onto Jade for no reason.

It's good to know that he's played on Discord a few times, that helps with how I read him. Meanwhile, I suggest that you really consider the differences between forum mafia and Discord mafia.

Oh okay then

##UNVOTE ##VOTE: Gekki
Scummy bandwagon jumping on to an easy new-player lynch.

I think we need to review the timeline regarding TE, because this is already getting messy:

Post #80 - TE arrives and requests to be caught up.
Post #86 - TE reads the thread as instructed and concludes that nothing happened and there is no information (and we are "kinda blind").
Post #87-#88 - In #87, Gekki tells TE to get information then. In #88, TE says that everyone should claim their roles. Gekki says that is not how it works.
Post #91 - TE says "ignored", which is probably referring to how people were ignoring his claim post. (Gekki says the above at #90, but the timing makes me think TE was ninja'd.)
Post #99 - TE misses Jade's question regarding his mafia experience, answers in #94, and gives more information on being asked by Jade up until #99. TE has had "some" experience, "mostly" in real life and played "like 2 games" on a forum a "long long time ago".
Post #100 - TE takes upon the advice of Gekki and RVS votes Aqua.
Post #104 - I ask TE why he suggested claiming (this is to analyse the thought process and read accordingly; does he suggest it because that's what he's used to IRL?)
Post #107 - TE votes me for saying he is weird (I actually said "interesting", and he missed my question). Lorde calls OMGUS at #108. Mariano says TE is attracting his attention at #110. I question Lorde at #111 (I was implying that a new player would often OMGUS).
Post #117 - NP asks a similar question to me, except implies that TE should/would be thinking about strategy. I say this is a weird expectation of a newbie in #120.
Post #122 - Gekki makes a "real vote" on TE for the "strange" claim thing and "almost OMGUS". Gekki says TE is not a new player, has played Discord mafia and shouldn't be "cut the slack" [i.e. treated like one]
Post #127 - I vote Gekki for a "scummy bandwagon on an easy new player lynch". Context: In #124, I suggest Gekki thinks about the differences between Discord and Forum mafia. In #126, Gekki says "of couse he has" [thought about it]. I asked this because it is typical for people to role claim early in Discord mafia, and the metas are hardly translatable anyway. In #128, Gekki asserts that TE is not new.
Post #129 - Lorde votes Gekki for "disregarding BB's point about OMGUS", and says that the massclaim suggestion must have been a gag.
Post #133 - Gekki claims that TE is the only semi-valid vote right now and that his vote shouldn't be suspicious.

OMGUS happens regularly in RVS, actually; joke is fine.


Reading TLS townier from this post mainly because the reason is new (and is a good reason), because it shows TLS is trying to scumhunt and it doesn't feel bandwagony.



TE doesn't need to give "reasons for bb being weird" because of the context: I said "TE is... interesting" and then he votes me with a "no you are". That's all there is to it.

This post from TLS actually wasn't a good reason, and did little to nothing to not feel bandwagony. Then again, the different between a pocket and townreading a scumbuddy is quite small and BB is good at both of them.

Heh, Jade ninja'd me saying that the post is scummy. TLS actually is contributing something, as you will see once you read up on the "cases" (term used loosely).

@TLS; our activity is currently great. Posts from a variety of people every 5 minutes is on the higher end.

To follow up on my timeline post/be more specific to the discussion:

Is TE a new player? Great question!

Experience:
- IRL mafia -- a different meta to forum mafia. IRL mafia is also very diverse - the only version I've played IRL was highly casual and we spent more time just guessing than actually scumhunting.
- Discord mafia -- not very similar or applicable to forum mafia.
- Forum mafia -- two games is a very small amount - you're not going to learn that much, and that is assuming that TE retained that information since the last time he played (probably years ago). He might remember that you vote and understand the basics of how teams work, and maybe some role types, but surely not strategy.

This is why his "OMGUS" does not phase me (plus, it's RVS), and I'm leaning towards the early claiming being a somewhat normal IRL mafia play. Or it was just a joke. Either way, not a semi-valid lynch.

Who's the teammates you're referring to TLS?

And?

Regarding Gekki:

Gekki says that TE is not new, reasoning with the 2 past mafia games, which isn't particularly weird. The tipping point was using Discord mafia to further justify this, which is weird, because Gekki would know that forum mafia and Discord mafia are very different.
Another weird thing is that he claims TE is the only semi-valid lynch option, as justification. That firstly shouldn't prevent Gekki from looking elsewhere! Besides, I've pointed out how both Jade and quaking have also been weird, which Gekki could have focused on instead, which is why I say TE is an easy choice.
The final weird thing which I noticed recently is that Gekki was the first responder to TE's claim thing, yet only now decides to vote him for it.

I also am feeling deja vu.

@Lord o da rings Do you think Gekki is actually mafia? Or just playing weird/scummy?

I don't remember this, so could you explain please? ^.^


I am just seeing this all to be very similar to last game: Gekki was scummy/was townier then got too aggressive/was somewhat logically inconsistent, yet he flipped town.

Fixed version:

Spoiler

Yup, you said something like "the only semi-viable vote" was TE, which implies you weren't looking that hard.


What was the main reason then? The bolded is weird, because you respond with "TE is not new" whenever I'm saying that TE is acting like a new player (and so those 'scumtells' are not tells), yet you acknowledge that Discord mafia is way different to forum mafia. So, TE is effectively "new".


The first sentence of your post suggests that you've been looking elsewhere, whereas this part shows that you haven't. Which is it?


Nope, each site has their own HUGE differences. Especially the other site that I play on. Eitherway, it is also weird that in your experience, people play similarly across sites, because by that logic, TE is playing similarly to the other sites he played, and so it doesn't make sense for you to think that the claiming could be scummy.

Also just putting it out there: I will be expecting thoughts on Gekki and TE from everyone, and if you notice anything weird on anyone else, you can have a cookie slice of cake! :>

From general experience with new players, especially those getting pressured a lot. There are three probable scenarios: TE would have responded immediately (if he was online around that time), he will respond within the next 8ish hours, or will not respond and disappear from the game entirely. Hopefully not the last one.

I think you'll find that everyone does the voting based on weak evidence and being somewhat hypocritical to some degree, Gekki.

Any others that you'd like point out?


Why Lorde and not me?

Spoiler: a few commentaries on or for Gekki

Sorry, yeah, you're right.


Another weird thing: if this was your main reason, then it should have been included in your vote post, instead of the other two reasons.


You should probably try finding scummy stuff on people who didn't recently get called out and voted by someone else.

This. I don't really think the mindset thing is actually scummy; the only thing that goes on the list of "weird actions" for me is this contradiction:
"Have you [Gekki] not been screaming at me in Discord for like a week about how bad one site's meta is and how different another one is?

Anyway, ##UNVOTE. I implied earlier but possibly didn't spell it out; this is turning out very similar to last game, so I'm really not feeling a mafian flip. (My initial vote was pressure.)


I also am not feeling this Lorde thing, and after reading a couple of pages on it, I'm a bit confused on what the main points actually are. I see sheeping/bandwagoning? This seems like a very weak reason; Lorde is at worst opportunistic scum, at best scumhunting/pressuring town; and so I just generally read it as neutral. Plus, this logic means that anyone who votes after someone else is bandwagoning, which is false. The only legitimate point that I've seen on Lorde is this one by simsands, about Lorde still voting/arguing against Gekki, and Lorde's response to it didn't make me change my mind.

On another note, NP's much more aggressive and isn't flying under the radar, as compared to last game (when he was scum). I don't know what to make of that though, since NP was also representing us on another site at the time, and they could explain things.

What is scummy is that NP was pressuring and focusing mainly on Gekki (this is after commenting on his mindset), and then in the post below, started switching towards pressuring and focusing nearly entirely on Lorde. The kicker is that I don't see any reason for NP's focus to switch so suddenly - it's not like Gekki gave a great defense to the points NP was focused on that should have changed NP's mind there and then.



##VOTE: NP

Also for the record, I've got a few other suspicions.

Here's his stupid push onto me. He says Gekki and Lorde aren't sus, and then votes me for no reason.
Thinking it might be trying to protect Lorde without actually siding with Lorde.

In light of my recent post, was there anything that you still wanted me to respond to?

So you don't think NP suddenly switching focus from you to Lorde is suspicious?

That's the thing - I don't see what should have caused NP to switch his focus when he did. I don't see any new slip-ups or giveaways or anything like that, nor any defenses that should have stopped the pressure on Gekki.

Keeps on the pressure on me. If my role didn't clear me, this should.

Why so much defense? I'm not asking for you to switch your vote either...

There's always a reason for people's minds/reads to change, and I don't see what it was. This is also why I'm curious to hear NP's response.

20 posts sounds good, PMJ!


You're definitely posting your opinions a lot, and spending a lot of your posts trying to give excuse as to why NP's sudden focus shift isn't scummy, which I say "defense".


First thing, it doesn't follow that we are at the same level of scumminess if you think Lorde has a better case on her. Secondly, if we are the same level of scumminess, then you should be able to articulate reasons for me being scummy (that isn't "defended TE, voted Gekki"), and so you should have been able to start your own case. This post doesn't make much sense.


Concrete evidence is a luxury in this game - you will probably never find it; plus, you aren't locked in to your vote - changing it is very normal. Who are you thinking is more likely to be scum and why?

@GekkisaiDaiNi Do you have any other scumreads?


Yeah, there's a reason that I didn't get lynched or have much suspicion thrown on me besides "he should be dead by now".

The irony here is that Gekki is majorly tunneling Lorde, increasingly more than the other way around.

Just making a few corrections, since the tunnel vision is distorting things:
- Lorde's post clearly indicates that she does not have time to simply "make a case" - she was checking in before going to sleep.
- that w/e response is completely disregarding a very legitimate piece of reasoning
- sitting around waiting for TE's response (whenever that may be) would have been a waste of time, and so by this logic, Lorde was actually playing pro-town.
- expecting people to read a full ISO is unrealistic (not everyone has that much patience!), especially when the majority of the quotes are just you saying "null".
- Not repeating a reason when asked is unhelpful, and my brief skim of the ISO didn't show up anything convincing.
- the reason for Lorde's "unwillingness" is pretty clear: Lorde has put her vote on the scummiest player in her opinion (you), you says this should change, and so Lorde asks to whom
- scum cannot just hammer you at this point. They need 3(+) votes, and even if they coordinated that, we would get a nice list of likely mafians to lynch (so win-win to town).
- therefore there is no guarantee that there is scum on your wagon (and in fact, the amount of attention that gets pushed on them could deter mafia from the wagon).

I am also getting very sick of this whole Gekki vs Lorde thing, especially how repetitive these points and defenses are...

I don't have time to get around to NP's post. Reading it through, NP looks pretty confident that my point on him is wrong, so I'll need to be more careful when rereading those posts in question. In the meantime, a question: did your scum-lean towards me occur about the time I voted you? It sure is seeming like that.



Look, you really haven't debunked many - if any - of anyone's points on you, so stop acting like you have. You are still playing very scummily, and the only two reasons that have stopped me from dragging this case out and voting you is: a) this feels like a repeat of last game and b) I don't want to lynch you Day 1 again.

It appears that quite a few people are not voting you for this former reason, too.

So you know what some of the "scummy" things I'm talking about, see these three of Lorde's recent points on you are entirely true and entirely valid. And, no, I don't want you to defend against them again, because you've done that many times already and your responses really don't change, let alone change my mind.



Can you quote/link where Lorde didn't justify her vote on Gekki very well? This would be an actually good point, and I'm sure it's been brought up a few times, it just never sank in for me. >.>'


Interestingly, all these reads are neutral or town, or just generally whishy-washy, and they miss a few people (myself for example).

Remember my reply to this stuff? I said if BB ever flipped scum, Lorde's getting chainsaw defended. Well that's happened.

Don't forget the fact that bb has stated he doesn't like the Gekki wagon either. Lorde, you and I must be a scumteam!

I'm actually writing a response to NP, and was intending to do that before making proper comments on Mariano's list, but since you ask:

If I'm reading correctly, Mariano thinks I'm scummy because I am connected to Lorde because Lorde also defended TE, which Mariano thinks is scummy. And if my reading is correct, then Mariano's logic here is very vague and weak.

Regarding the list in general, it is interesting that Mariano managed to develop a read on simsands despite them having very few posts, but is unable to read others who have also made a similar amount of posts.

Throwing a fair amount of scum points towards Mariano but he never pursued him iirc.

Regarding Lorde's inconsistent vote reasons


Looking at that timeline, I'm really not seeing how she keeps changing her vote reason? (Your commentary is underlined and italicised.)


The original vote for reference.


She says it was just a pressure vote, but then asks why I see it as scummy.
I'm not fully understanding what you're getting at here? Do you mean it's weird that Lorde says that Gekki isn't "especially scummy" yet still votes him? If so, it would make sense for Lorde to cast a pressure vote to develop her read further.


This is something of a fallacy, because my alignment (or how I am being read) shouldn't dictate whether my points are good or bad as you've implied - rather, people should make that decisions based on the justification/logic presented. As such, Gekki should have considered what I implied regarding OMGUS regardless of how he read me, which is where Lorde's vote comes from.


She then relies on a "good point", which implies she's voting him for scumminess, not really pressure.
I do not see how scumminess and pressure are really any different? A good pressure vote can only be made on someone who has been scummy, otherwise you won't have anything to pressure them about.



She now claims the point was Gekki ignoring a question from you about what made the OMGUS scummy, which doesn't seem like "disregarding" you at all. For someone so specific about what words she uses, disregard and ignore are quite different.
I also don't see any difference here? Lorde never said that "Gekki ignored a question [directed at him]", if you mean that. If you didn't mean that, then 'disregard' and 'ignore' seem entirely interchangeable here - used in this post, "disregard" conveys the idea that "Gekki did not consider bbn's post in his vote [regarding TE being new and his OMGUS action]", which is the same reason Lorde gave in her original vote.


And now she says then it wasn't based on BB's point (by using a different point of Gekki's).
You appear to be misinterpreting the context of Lorde's statement here: I voted Gekki for "bandwagoning onto an easy lynch". Lorde voted Gekki for "not considering in his vote the pointed-out reasons that suggest TE's OMGUS is not scummy". Although I wouldn't say these vote reasons are "completely different", they are still different and Lorde is justified in saying what she did, nor has she changed her reason.

All in all, the reasons Lorde gives for her vote actually seems to be very consistent, with subtle differences in phrasing.

I don't understand...? Of course you are allowed to post your reads and suspicions on people?


You shouldn't begin posting less just because you've reached a quota, that is a bit weird. Of course work commitments will play a part in fluctuating activity, but checking in regularly enough and giving brief comments on recent developments is important.

Also @GekkisaiDaiNi, this would be one of those opinion posts that TE is referring to (funny that you missed it, too, since you responded to it...)

I'd like to see your response, actually, Gekki, because you've spent a lot of your time sheeping behind other people (such as NP). If NP is scum and my reasons are massively flawed, you wouldn't be giving him answers or anything.


You've on a few occasions expected people to keep track of small responses that other people make, along with other expectations such as people reading giga-long cases, just so you know.


And you expect a new player not to be wishywashy and a bit confused? It may or may not have been an echo, I don't really know; it's the most recent and has his thoughts all in one place, which is good. (Echoing yourself is not a problem.)

@GrandPanacea Once you get the chance and aren't feeling exhausted, it'll be great to hear you reads! Alternatively, if you've read the pages up until now, it'd be good to just hear a quick sentence-or-two summary on your recent thoughts.

Bolded.

No I do not, please respond and stop avoiding it.

*and by respond, I mean give actual reasons instead of "oh, you twisted stuff"

I am actually trying to work on that, what is there to conveniently ignore anyway?

Look, this is a long post and I'm really not expecting you (Gekki) to respond to everything, if it all. I've given direct post evidence for everything here, and there's not exactly stuff you can actually defend*. This is actually a post for everyone else, compiling all the significant scummy stuff on Gekki in one spot.

*Then what's the point of defending, bbn? Well, defenses are for players to identify any weak points - logical inconsistencies, misinterpretations, fallacies, etc. If the point is not weak, and clear is day, then it's nearly impossible to defend against it. You should, alternatively, be giving reasons for your innocence..



RE: Your supposed "debunking"
Here's the problem: you've already tried debunking the points on you - in fact, you very actively respond to any suspicions cast on you whatsoever. Your efforts boil down to "that's weak/not scummy/crap/wrong (generally emphatic statements without any actual reasons to justify), "but stills" and "I play scummy". This response to Lorde is a great example of this "debunking", defenses being limited to "This point is crap" and "This isn't true" (where in fact, the point were justified by Lorde). In fact, Gekki's recent responses to Lorde are increasingly consistent with this behaviour.

Gekki's response to TE's read on him was also "his points are trash".

As I said earlier, I think this is a waste of time - a distraction and rather unnecessary, and I doubt it will actually result in anything new. Whelp, here we go anyway:

Reasons for you being scummy (but not necessarily mafia):

Inconsistencies (these are the major ones):
-- case 1: stating Discord mafia and Forum mafia are similar where, according to NP, you assert the opposite elsewhere. Never commented on this in your response to NP.
-- case 2: You say something to the extent of "I'd like to see a case on bb", and here say you never scumread me.
-- Mariano makes a good point about you expecting Lorde to defend and scumhunt.

Hypocritical (also the major ones):
-- case 1: it's not early Day 1 and you are still being overly offensive
-- case 2: you bandwagoned off a weak point on TE, which is sheeping
-- case 3: As later pointed out, your ISO points on Lorde easily apply to you. Specifically, you say that Lorde is too defensive of TE, yet you get rather defensive of NP here. When I call you out for this, you say it's not defending - your'e just posting your opinions.
-- case 4: You accuse Lorde of tunneling when you are doing this yourself. Your defense when Lorde points this out? "I have reasons to tunnel" (i.e. "I am exempt") and "your case on me is weak/illegitimate" (since when can you say when a case is illegitimate?). Hypocritical tunnel-related logic is reinstated here and here.

Extra defensive
- when being pressured about the TE vote, as NP pointed out here. You fail to respond to this in your next post. This is shown throughout the game by Gekki responding to nearly every post that would dare suggest him not being inno. Then gets jumpy when put into a tie with Lorde around here (despite the day ending in some 20 or so hours still).

Overly aggressive (and OMGUS)
- on TE, on Lorde, linked to the tunneling. on Defense: you play aggressive normally (and got lynched for it) - no indication that you're working to change that. Anyone notice the people Gekki is aggressive towards are always those who suggested he is scummy (and did so first)? Your defense to this OMGUS idea was "no, this isn't OMGUS".

Sheeping
- Related to the above and the Tunnel Vision below, Gekki tends to focus on and vote people (i.e. TE, Lorde) only after other people cast suspicion on them. More here. Unlike what Gekki says; adding points on people (especially under tunnel vision) does not mean someone is not sheeping. Gekki's defense is to say this is false; "adding points on people does mean you're not sheeping".

Tunnel Vision
-- RE: Lorde; e.g. when responding to Lorde's defense of the ISO. Your response to this consisted of a few "okay, but..." (a common indication of tunneling) and a couple of "no, you are wrong, that is scummy". Further posts show you disregarding Lorde's defenses and points as "crap", "false" and "illegitimate" without really any reason (see section Hypocritical, case 4). If I haven't convinced you yet, Gekki initially believed my analysis of Lorde's vote reason had "massive holes" (when that was completely false), more tunneling behaviour. He then disregards the fact that Lorde and I buddying is unrealistic because "WIFOM".
-- RE: TE; it took quite of bit of explaining/defense before Gekki actually let go of his initial vote on TE. Recently, seriously considering voting TE for his "weird"/not-optimal actions despite TE being new. Defense: "this is not worth talking about" (avoiding behaviour).

These last two pages have been highly repetitive, and his why I'm saying that this Gekki vs Lorde thing is unhelpful. It's becoming detrimental and out of hand, and needs to be toned down. Plus, I guarantee you that most players will not be reading those posts properly anyway.

Can I just point out, Gekki, that I went back and read all the posts that you made to compile that list up there, and I'm pretty sure that Lorde is factually correct, and you are not.

@NinjaPenguin Looking back at my vote on you... well, there's not much to say. Like you said, that was an awful reason; you ended up focusing on both, not one or the other. Don't know what was going through my head...

(btw I would probably post more, but I'm a bit exhausted from compiling that long post on Gekki. >.>)

@Jadethepokemontrainer ...I don't understand how TE is scummy from my skim of your ISO. He jokes a lot, does some weird things, so what? New players do that. Also what Lorde said... actual reasons would be great.

That period where she was set on keeping her vote on Gekki (before Gekki started majorly tunneling Lorde) was a bit weird. The whole Gekki thing was striking me as very similar to last game, which I think Lorde might have acknowledge, but despite that she still left her vote. I also found her earlier psuedo-read list wishy-washy/vague (although I misinterpreted her read on you as neutral), but her recent "official" list is much more coordinated and seems to be consistent, so it's nothing big on her. I don't see any other valid points on her than those, despite all this commotion around her suggesting otherwise.

And finally reads...

Leaning Town
TOTAL_EPICNESS --- is hitting all the newbie tells for me. Is helpful and is trying to scumhunt, which is easier for new town than it is new scum.
NinjaPenguin --- Initially thought was scummier because of that "focus-switch", but, uh, that was just completely wrong, so nevermind that. Is aggressiveness and wide-spread commentary makes me think he's in a lone-wolf mode, as opposed to a mafia-team-mode like he may have been last game.

Neutral
Lord o da rings (town-lean) --- I feel that this case is more scum driven than anything, and I really don't see many valid points on her. There's the parking the vote on Gekki at a period of time, and maybe weird reads; that's it.
The Last Shaymin - Isn't posting very much or contributing very much, making this a hard read. Probably need to do a look at their posts, but I'm a bit over doing ISOs right now. >.>
GrandPanacea - Weird popping in to make jokes and not really contribute, and wanted to with-hold his reads, which is weird. That is probably all attributed to GP being new/busy, though, especially so because this Gekki/lorde thing has been very messy and is certainly hard to follow.
simsands (scum-lean) - I don't like how simsands shows up, suggests Lorde's lynch, and it takes off, yet has been flying under the radar in the sense that people don't attribute the lynch to him.
quakingpunch73 (scum-lean) - Definitely seems to be flying under the radar a bit., which doesn't sit well with me at all. (Did I read him this way last game too? I think I might have...). Needs to post more.
Jadethepokemontrainer (scum-lean) - Flying under the radar, odd lack of reasoning in his recent reads, a bit bandwagony.

Leaning Mafia
Mariano11887 - initial bandwagon onto the Lorde lynch was odd, especially the choice of Lorde over myself (despite saying we're both equally scummy). I also find it strange that their scum read on me is mainly because of my connection to Lorde, because outside of that, it is rather baseless. Eitherway, I'm not picking up those strong town pings like I did last game.
GekkisaiDaiNi - Is very scummy, and I'm increasingly considering the possibility of him being mafia the more he tunnels other people and gets jumpy whenever someone else suggests he could be mafia. Regardless, his tunneling is derailing and detrimental. I will vote him if it ends up being Lorde OR Gekki as the final lynch options.

Needs subbing out:
TeamAqua4Life #HEYNICK

Neutrals are good spots to place the scumbuddies in general. 1 scum lean, 1 town lead, and one null lean seems like a nice zen balance, but who really knows.

Just rereading my read on TE and would like to clarify "helpful", because clearly jokes is not that. By helpful I mean that if you ask him to give his thoughts, he will generally freely and reliably give his thoughts.

You need to be reading it yourself. It's not as bad as it seems; if you see a string of posts by Gekki/Lorde, you could probably do with skipping over it because they're highly repetitive, and we can give tl;drs on them based on what you pick up. If there's a post that has a tl;dr, read that instead of the spoiler'd stuff. What you do need to be reading is the posts made by other people who aren't Gekki/Lorde, because that's where your scumhunting will come in.

Yeah, I picked up on that too. The sentence-disregard of Gekki is especially strange, as is that random "oh bb could be a good lynch today too", which is particularly uninformed. My only reservation about this is that the scum should be more informed; they have the scumchat after all, and I would be expecting at least some discussion to take place over there. On the other hand, Jade seems to be really confused and know very little on what's actually going on.


To clarify, I meant that you were withholding your reads earlier today. When you said "no, I'll post who I think is suspicious after the Night"; that was a bit odd.

My dilemma has always been that Gekki is scummy, but is also scummy as town. That is something I feel is important information for anyone who reads Gekki, so that's why I mentioned it. As for myself personally, I never realised the extent to which Gekki has been scummy until I reread through the past 10 or so pages, so I've been considering the thought of him being mafia more since then. In doing my reads list, I wasn't seeing anyone else stand out as particularly scummy; there were a few wagons and flying under the radar, but there's also other factors that make reading from those tells difficult, so not the people I'd want to be lynching today. I can't help noticing, now that I've been around for it, how much this Lorde vs Gekki thing has derailed other discussions, on which I would largely blame Gekki's tunnel vision and his tendency to jump any comments that suggest he is mafian, so that also makes me more comfortable with the idea of his lynch.

I'll have to take a look at everything tomorrow when I have a clearer head (although it'll be quite a bit later than normal, since I've got life commitments starting to chew up my free time again).

So my best conclusions from this part:

• He likely chainsaw defended Lorde.
• Mariano is quite probably the scum of the two.
• One of GP and TLS are the last scum. Leaning towards GP because it look like he tried to pocket TLS more than anything else, but not set on it.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Formatting the beginning of the spoiler correctly this time:

Spoiler: ISO

Who here likes cake? :3

You Dirty Stinking Cake Thief!

##VOTE: TLS

What deeeelicious cake!


How elaborate.

This is where, in hindsight, I should have started the alarm bells. Gekki had the bad mindset, but BB here has a quite similar one.

Lies!

##UNVOTE ##VOTE: Ninja Penguin

I was still planning on use that one!! You dirty stinking gif-stealing cake thief!

What's even the point of RVS, Gekki?

No, there wasn't a particular reason for it.

Jade, you're planning on posting something, yes? Or are you going to lurk?

As someone who iirc dislikes lurking callouts (especially without a tag), this seems unnecessary unless he thinks it will help scum. I can't tell what alignment it specifically would lead to though.

I was going to say that Gekki is virtually the only person playing pro-town (deja vu, anyone? xD), but got called to do a chore before I could post, and returned to see a mini-explosion of posts, so I'm happy.

In all seriousness, pro-town play right now is to post at least 50% of the times you check this thread, and fluffy posts are absolutely fine atm! This is a 72 hour day, so we don't have the time to sit around waiting for people to post stuff. Dx

I don't see any problem with 2 posts with no RVS vote, honestly.

Oh wait...

I swear I've been framed!

Got nothing else to really say? That post doesn't actually add anything - not fluff, not anything - to the discussion flow

Two new pages of posts! Now that is what I like to see! I also see that Jade made a rather odd statement and T_E is... being interesting.


The idea is to stop people being like "I better not post anything because it'll just be fluff and then I'll be lynched" because that is false. You'd be surprised at how much fluffy posts move the game forward anyway.


There could be a scum slip from it? That is a weird expectation to have of RVS and fluff. ##UNVOTE: someone ##VOTE: Jade


Let's not! Why did you suggest this?

This pressure for little to no reason looks good for Jade imo.

It could happen in maybe 1 in 35 games, and so it is a odd choice of a reason to explain why fluff could be useful.

I'm not sure why you're saying this tbh


What do you consider OMGUS again? Remember, this is a new player (so let's not repeat the discussion we had last game ).

Okay, fair enough. You posted fluff, and fluff is fine atm, but to avoid getting caught up with definitions, I do think there's something different to note here: your post consisted of 1) a reason as to why people think you could be "lurking" 2) an obvious statement saying that you are now here.

No random votes
No random comments on people
No random comments on the discussion you weren't around for

You hadn't been around for a while, and so that is all stuff you could have easily done. The weird thing is that there's no comment on stuff that isn't about or directed at you, fluffy or otherwise.


I'm a bit confused, how is Jade drawing attention to himself?

Of course you can paste. :U

Am I not special enough to get my name abbreviated?

What do you hope to achieve from voting TE and asking this question? TE is new and I wouldn't be expecting them to be strategising at this level?


The "you could get scumtells"? I really don't think that Jade intended to have that prompt questions and discussion; it feels throw-away to me.

@Mariano11887 There's a likelihood that we'll be waiting a while for TE to respond, so waiting around for his response won't be a very efficient strategy for finding the best lynch today.

I'm not expecting a vote.
No comments on the rest of us, then, Mariano?

Interesting there's no pursuit on this when he flipped onto Jade for no reason.

It's good to know that he's played on Discord a few times, that helps with how I read him. Meanwhile, I suggest that you really consider the differences between forum mafia and Discord mafia.

Oh okay then

##UNVOTE ##VOTE: Gekki
Scummy bandwagon jumping on to an easy new-player lynch.

 

[simsands]

I'll post some thoughts once I get home. I'm on the bus right now.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Day 2 BB ISO: Not much more coloring because I'm lazy.

Spoiler: ISO

On mobile; bbn didn’t vote because he was asleep and by the time he had woken back up, the votes had piled up on Gekki and NP had hammered him, so... I didn’t vote him before I went to sleep because my vote would have put him dangerously close to the hammer mark.

I didn't know how many votes Gekki had at that point; I don't think PMJ had posted a vote count near that time, and even if he did, there was a lot going on when I was awake, so accurately remembering the number of votes was not my priority. All I could remember was that he had a number of votes on him, and it's better to be safe than sorry


I'm pretty sure TE said that we could random guess and then said that's actually a bad idea and that we should be educated in our lynch


Can you full claim then?

I'd also like to know why TLS took until this second post to say that Lorde is not mafia, especially considering the first post I quoted of TLS'?

I don't think the roles relate to alignments so claiming Jethro means nothing, although the nature of the ability that you claimed makes me think you're highly likely town, Aqua.

Who do you think is mafia?

I think this is putting Nick in the pocket, which seems just like what he did to TLS. Close to clearing TLS for that.

You're not reading... I said that the name Jethro wouldn't be indicative, but the nature of the ability (an easy lynch) would. I highly doubt that a mafian would actually have an easily lynch ability, and virtually every host that I can think of (including PMJ) will provide safeclaims similar to the actual role; they wouldn't just completely change or add an entirely new Ability for the fun of it. It's not even a safe Ability, because if Aqua gets voted and doesn't die, he gets pegged as scum. It is of course possible that Aqua faked it, but that would mean that the mafia team is already thinking up major shenanigans and playing very gutsy... it just makes a lot more sense that an easy lynch role is inno, which is enough for me in this limited part of the game.


So, I'm mafia because I pressure-voted Gekki early on? This argument started after Gekki jumped on the Lorde wagon, and then they started spending pages arguing after that. I didn't start any argument, and I shouldn't be blamed for Lorde voting Gekki. I also shouldn't be blamed for "getting people to bandwagon", not just because other people's actions are not my responsibility, but because I didn't even do that, except for later day when it became apparent that town was set on Gekki and Lorde being the only two discussion and lynch options.


I don't understand this recent expectation from you and NP for me to have claimed my role already? It would have been nice for the the mafians to waste a nightkill on a vanilla, but considering how much I'm getting pressured, it seems there's a general apathy towards my lynch instead, so it's not going to change much.



Good ol' vanilla

I am currently in the middle of responding to simsands ISO, but I have to go AWFK so it'll be delayed. simsands has missed a lot of significant context.

@GrandPanacea How did you manage to forget your wincon?


I think there’s some problem with the copy and pasting again, since that happened when I c/p’d my role. Breaks weren’t copying properly or something.

Interesting interaction that could be Firo being town or Firo being in the Mariano zone, being accused but never with followup.

You've missed important context, not on just a few occasions, but throughout the entire ISO, which paints an entirely different picture. I also can't help but notice that your comments effectively restate what happened, instead of drawing proper conclusions. Anyway, italics are my posts.

Spoiler: 4 instances of missed context

Case 1:

What do you hope to achieve from voting TE and asking this question? TE is new and I wouldn't be expecting them to be strategising at this level?
Calls out NP for his vote on TE.​

It's good to know that he's played on Discord a few times, that helps with how I read him. Meanwhile, I suggest that you really consider the differences between forum mafia and Discord mafia

Oh okay then
##UNVOTE ##VOTE: Gekki
Scummy bandwagon jumping on to an easy new-player lynch.
And then jumps on Gekki for a similar reason.​

Gekki thinks TE should not be considered new, citing he's played Discord mafia before. I suggest to "consider the differences...", and Gekki responds that he has. The fact that Gekki considered the differences yet continued to vote TE was what caused me to interpret his bandwagoning as opportunistic (or easy) and scummy, and so I voted Gekki. That's a different picture to the one of logicial inconsitencies that you're trying to paint.

Case 2:

I am just seeing this all to be very similar to last game: Gekki was scummy/was townier then got too aggressive/was somewhat logically inconsistent, yet he flipped town.
Points out that the Gekki situation mirrors the last game, suggesting that Gekki could be town.

Anyway, ##UNVOTE. I implied earlier but possibly didn't spell it out; this is turning out very similar to last game, so I'm really not feeling a mafian flip. (My initial vote was pressure.)
And then he unvotes, because he never really thought Gekki was mafia. Instead, he suggests a NP lynch (for a reason that wasn't true). He also suspects some other players.​

Here you say that I "never really thought Gekki was mafia", which firstly is not what I said at all, and secondly, it isn't this sudden mindset change as you're implying. The post beforehand shows where I was standing; a post that came after reevaluating the discussion that had occurred among Gekki/Lorde/myself.

Case 3:

The irony here is that Gekki is majorly tunneling Lorde, increasingly more than the other way around.
Just making a few corrections, since the tunnel vision is distorting things: -
And now he's back at arguing why Gekki is a better lynch than Lorde.

I am also getting very sick of this whole Gekki vs Lorde thing, especially how repetitive these points and defenses are...
But besides a quick gander at NP, that's the only thing you seem to have cared about today.​

A bulk of stuff happened between these posts and my vote on NP (which was when I was asleep). Gekki and Lorde (+ others) were increasingly at each other's heads, and their arguments were getting increasingly tunnelly. This is especially in the case of Gekki, who also had very little people pressuring him, as opposed to the massive push on Lorde. More, it became pretty apparent that the town wasn't going to discuss anything else - e.g. people will normally comment on other cases, even those completely off-the-mark like the NP case, yet we didn't see that; so I sorta just gave up trying to go elsewhere, and stuck with trying to keep the Gekki/Lorde discussion balanced.

You also say I focus solely on Gekki, which is absolutely false; there is more volume about him simply because I was often online when he and Lorde were (as oppose to everyone else); you even quoted some of the comments and thoughts on other people.

Case 4:

These last two pages have been highly repetitive, and his why I'm saying that this Gekki vs Lorde thing is unhelpful. It's becoming detrimental and out of hand, and needs to be toned down. Plus, I guarantee you that most players will not be reading those posts properly anyway.
Again, if you think this way, why aren't you making an effort at steering the discussion away from this, and instead fueling the discussion? You mentioned earlier that you had other suspicions. Why not look into those?​

To repeat the above, it was clear to me that this discussion couldn't be steered away at least by my own efforts - heavily looking into anyone else would be choked out. That said, I was still vigilant on commenting on other people who I thought were strange.
Was I fueling the discussion? To an extent, sure, but only for a brief time, because the discussion was one-sided. After commenting on NP, I tried to not say much that would fuel it. You say "more on Gekki" in regards to two of my posts after this, but they were actually comments on other people's interactions in regards to Gekki (the first was re: Lorde and the second was re: Jade). Another missecd context.

TL;DR
- the claim that my focus was entirely on Gekki is false. I consistently commented on other people (not this "sole" focus), and there was only a short-lived period later in the day when I was primarily focused on him.
- it became apparent to me that this Gekki/Lorde discussion was not going to be shifted by my own efforts, hence why I didn't vote anyone new after NP
- a volume of posts regarding Gekki is only reflective of me being online at the same time as him, and does not represent where my focuses were at

Yeah wtv to this but simsands's case should confirm them as town.

Not sure where this came from, but yes, I'm going to be working on it.


I explained this in Case 3 (in the spoiler). I mean, the fact that both Gekki and Lorde were being highly vocal and drowning virtually everything else out, and the fact that most other people were only ever focused on those wagons, are both pretty big giveaways on their own.

Comments from... Gekki? Only after I pushed him for some. Everyone else? Nope, zilch.


You said "bar a few exceptions", which isn't much better, because that's also painting a different picture. I am frankly surprised that you say my comments lacked substance. Jade is the more obvious one, but I also commented on people like TE and gave my thoughts regarding my reads, I might have commented on Mariano, and definitely commented on Lorde regularly. And that's just the more extensive stuff. If you say that asking/answering isn't substantial, and thus isn't substantial scum-hunting, then I don't know what is.

Yeah Mariano got a lot of attention yesterday and none today. From D1, I'd expect his vote to be Mariano so I'll put him down as scum.

Thanks for your faith in me, but people don't sheep unless the most influential people (e.g. Lorde, yourself, simsands) are my scumbuddies. You know that...

Ayway, the fact that no one else actually made a case is another indicator that the town was set on either Gekki or Lorde being lynched.

So are all three of us not your scumbuddies?

Why did you target me?

Why did you target me?

Why didn't you end up pushing for Aqua's lynch then, especially instead of Gekki's? You were only tempted?


You say this, but I don't think you ever said why I'm "very likely scum".


This is also interesting, if you never actually put a case forward on me. I believe you made only a single post of pressure this day, which was rather weak and I believe explained it fully. So... why are you letting simsands do the dirty work for you?

Welcome back to "BB targets me for no reason".

Have you read Day 1? Because this is mostly regarding the role claims, and not what people have actually done.

Okay, this post still does not sit well with me at all. Scrapes together a bunch of reasons on Lorde, general dismissal in regards to Gekki. Then randomly says that I'll be a good Day 1 lynch, rather out of the blue. This is really the only post that sticks out to me as particularly off, and don't think sleep deprivation would have been the main factor in at all. If anything, sleep deprivation is more likely to bring out a true alignment, and make it difficult to put up that facade.

My figurative vote is on Jade.

“Most important”

Uh, no. When did I become “set” on Gekki? Conveniently the last 24 hours when we had to actually make a decision about who we lynch. On mobile, so that’s all I can comment on right now.

Time to ##VOTE: Jade

1. Jade
2. NP
3. simsands
4. not sure on a fourth

I'm so tempted to just clear this list, especially because I believe Mariano is the scum in the two and was already ready to clear simsands. This just reinforces it.

Right here, @Jade. You reads are also weird. Simsands straight to town? On what basis? They've done nothing that inherently inno...
Why would Aqua claim such a role if he was mafia?

simsands has been starting up lynch wagons but has otherwise been flying under the radar. If you think of the Lorde and bbn lynches, you probably won't attribute it to simsands, and there's my point.

So conclusions:

• Jade is the town of the two.
• TLS is more likely town, but I'm unsure.

As for other stuff, sim is just clear in general for me. Seeing as I believe Jade is the townie (and therefore NinJamezor scum), that leaves us with:

1. Lorde
2. TLS
3. GP

with two scum in that grouping. Of them, TLS seems like the townie to me, since BB tried to pocket him I think.

 

[simsands]

I seem to have noticed a lot of similar things as you (NP) have.

We know that at least one of Jade and Nin are scum. As you've pointed out, Jade does seem more likely to be town. I also noticed those interactions with bb at the start of day 1, which seemed to point at them not being scumbuddies. I would have liked to hear from Nin before cementing that but well, he's nowhere to be seen...

I have to agree that NP is pretty much confirmed town, and whatever slim chance that this wouldn't be the case, I wouldn't be comfortable even considering until there's only one scum left.

I have had some suspicions on GP for a while. His behavior this game has been.. odd. I guess you could argue that it's his first game (IIRC?), but I still have this gnawing suspicion. Going into day 4, I would definitely consider looking into him as a potential lynch candidate.

I did find it strange, how all of TLS's actions have in some way related to my night actions. Though I suppose, it's just a coincidence.

I wouldn't sleep on TLS being scum though. The one thing that pushes Lorde ahead of him, in my mind, is how bb started pushing for NP's lynch shortly after the Lorde wagon was starting to get some attention.

I also want to point out the slight possibility that both Jade and Nin are scum, trying to get the one who's not lynched confirmed town. I don't think this is the case, but I think it's worth keeping in mind.

 

[GrandPanacea]

Interesting that the eyes are on me now. Like Sun said, at least some of my odd behaviour has been due to just not knowing the norms; I went into this blind after all. Some is also just my personality.

As for pocketing TLS, I didn't target him just to target him; the points that others made against him seemed valid, thus they convinced me that he is scum.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

As for pocketing TLS, I didn't target him just to target him; the points that others made against him seemed valid, thus they convinced me that he is scum.

Wait what? This is about BB, not you. He tried to put TLS in his back pocket by townreading him, so TLS would be a slave of his.

 

[GrandPanacea]

Wait what? This is about BB, not you. He tried to put TLS in his back pocket by townreading him, so TLS would be a slave of his.

You literally wrote:

Leaning towards GP because it look like he tried to pocket TLS more than anything else, but not set on it.

 

[simsands]

You literally wrote:

While NP could have been more clear with his wording, you're completely missing the point. He refers to bb.