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Magivire (Magmortar / Electivire)

H

Hackurs

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Pokemon:

  • 4x Magmar
    4x Magmortar
    3x Electabuzz
    3x Electivire
    1x Mewtwo ex
    3x Victini ex
Trainers/Supporters/Stadiums:

  • 4x Evosoda
    2x Training Center
    2x Lysandre
    3x N
    2x Startling Megaphone
    2x Ultra Ball
    4x Silver Bangle
    2x Switch
    4x Shauna
    1x Dowsing Machine
Energy:

  • 10x Fire
    4x Double Colorless
    2x Lightning

Strategy:

The basic strategy is power up and evolve the magmortar and electivire from rising fist quickly with evosoda, and use Victini for energy acceleration. The silver bangles allow for magmortar to hit for 180 hp, which should cover most EX's. Any thoughts, opinions, suggestions, or potential issues with this deck that anyone can see? Thanks!
 
I thought about them, and initially had them in there, but it would require discarding the energies quickly, and the smiths would mess with the supporter to other trainer ratios. On top of that, it wouldn't provide a reliable enough energy acceleration, which was one of the two main obstacles I found while designing this deck. The other makes Milotic an issue as well- having enough room for all the cards to make this deck viable. Definitely open to suggestions for more reliable or efficient methods. Thanks for the input!
 
Some thoughts for your consideration:

  • Although Victini EX provides some energay attachment acceleration, would you really want to start with it and expose it to such early game damage that they become more of a liability than an asset? IMHO, you need a starting Poke that can take a hit while you setup, such as the Outrage'ing Reshiram. So, what about using a Call for Family attack Poke like Denne or Kangaskhan? Pokemon Fan Club could also be used to help get your basic Poke onto the bench.
  • 4 Evosodas seem to be excessive, especially since Level Ball may rotate out.
  • Magmortar has the potential of inflicting 160 damage before any damage boosts; so, consider replacing all the Silver Bangles with Muscle Bands which will still allow you to still hit the "magical" 180 damage output number and provide you more flexibilty.
  • There are only 7 card-draw Supporters which, IMHO, is woefully insufficient. Also, N may rotate out too.
  • When you view other R decks, you'll see that most (if not all) run Blacksmith. You can also find a discussion Thread concerning balancing Blacksmith with other deck Supporters. I run 3 Blacksmiths in my deck version (I use Bicycle to provide card draw when I want to play a Blacksmith) and it works quite well.
Given the above comments, following are some suggested changes:

  • -3 Victini EX
    -2 Evosoda
    +3 Kangaskhan / Reshiram (Outrage)

    -4 Silver Bangle
    +3 Muscle Band

    -3 N
    +2 Colress
    +4 Professor Sycamore. More card draw support.
I hope you find these comments helpful.
 
TuxedoBlack said:
Some thoughts for your consideration:

  • Although Victini EX provides some energay attachment acceleration, would you really want to start with it and expose it to such early game damage that they become more of a liability than an asset? IMHO, you need a starting Poke that can take a hit while you setup, such as the Outrage'ing Reshiram. So, what about using a Call for Family attack Poke like Denne or Kangaskhan? Pokemon Fan Club could also be used to help get your basic Poke onto the bench.
  • 4 Evosodas seem to be excessive, especially since Level Ball may rotate out.
  • Magmortar has the potential of inflicting 160 damage before any damage boosts; so, consider replacing all the Silver Bangles with Muscle Bands which will still allow you to still hit the "magical" 180 damage output number and provide you more flexibilty.
  • There are only 7 card-draw Supporters which, IMHO, is woefully insufficient. Also, N may rotate out too.
  • When you view other R decks, you'll see that most (if not all) run Blacksmith. You can also find a discussion Thread concerning balancing Blacksmith with other deck Supporters. I run 3 Blacksmiths in my deck version (I use Bicycle to provide card draw when I want to play a Blacksmith) and it works quite well.
Given the above comments, following are some suggested changes:

  • -3 Victini EX
    -2 Evosoda
    +3 Kangaskhan / Reshiram (Outrage)

    -4 Silver Bangle
    +3 Muscle Band

    -3 N
    +2 Colress
    +4 Professor Sycamore. More card draw support.
I hope you find these comments helpful.
Click to expand...

I like all the comments above, I appreciate it, especially the muscle band- that was a good catch, much appreciated. I'm curious though, why you think 4 evo soda is too many? I figure electivire and magmortar both benefit from it, and it provides them consistency of being available when needed. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious as to the reasoning behind it. It's likely an angle I haven't thought of yet.

What about dropping Shauna for sycamore, and then incorporating blacksmith/ poke fan club? I'm just worried about kangaskha/Reshiram not bring able to last long enough to have a useful cost/benefit ratio. Your thoughts? Also, wouldn't bp victini be useful for letting electivire be an alternate attack option based upon electrivire's attack?
 
With 4 evosoda you will end up with it in your hand when you have nothing that can evolve and it will just be a wasted card. If you attack with electivire you will probably use its first attack so victiny would not be a good addition in my opinion. I think N will still be in the format for a little longer because it is Black & White promo 100 or 101.
 
Hackurs said:
I'm curious though, why you think 4 evo soda is too many? I figure electivire and magmortar both benefit from it, and it provides them consistency of being available when needed. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious as to the reasoning behind it. It's likely an angle I haven't thought of yet.
Click to expand...
If I had any "angle" in mind, it was probably based upon my experience of having a strategy of getting basic Poke onto my bench fast and consistently T1/T2 by utilizing a "Ball" engine (not viable post-rotation) or Call for Family (CfF) Poke. Have to get Poke on the bench first before evolving is a priority for me when playing setup decks. Given your current deck list, you have:

  • Only 7 card-draw Supporters (which is quite insufficient, IMHO, for smooth, consistent deck operations - will not allow you to consistently draw into needed basic Poke early game),
  • No Poke search Supporters (i.e., Pokemon Fan Club), and
  • Only 2 Ultra Balls (your only basic Poke search Item - too few).
I believe there are just too many risks with your not being able to get your basic Poke out fast enough given these current constraints. So, 4 Evosodas would just not be that effective, IMHO; so, some Evosodas needed to be replaced.

Hackurs said:
What about dropping Shauna for sycamore, and then incorporating blacksmith/ poke fan club? I'm just worried about kangaskha/Reshiram not bring able to last long enough to have a useful cost/benefit ratio. Your thoughts?
Click to expand...
From my experience, I've successfully utilized both Reshiram (Outrage) and Kangaskhan for setup/protection duty in different decks. Both have better than average HP for a basic Poke and can usually take a hit or two providing some valuable setup time. Both of these Poke also have good attacks. Starting with an Outrage'ing Reshriram is just fun - will your opponent attack it T1 - maybe/maybe not... (just watch the facial expression of a VirGen deck player - lol) In any case, you have a solid secondary attacker that can be powered-up in one turn.

Kangaskhan can also take a hit or 2 sometimes before being KOd. Its Call for Family (for just C energy cost) attack can search and get 2 Poke to place on your bench. In doing so, you will have benched Poke early game that will make your Evosodas more effective. Another advantage of utilizing CfF Poke is that you are not using a Supporter for Poke searching - which could possibly "clash" with another Supporter you want to play during the same turn.

Consider trying different combos of Poke and Trainers till you find the one you like best.

From utilizing Blacksmith in my Charizard deck, that experience resulted in my needing to "balance" the total number of Supporters (to minimize Supporter "clashes"), along with needing to incorporate card-drawing Items. I'm currently testing (using proxies, of course) the following deck shell - which is working well for me:

3 Electabuzz
3 Electivire
3 Kangaskhan
4 Magmar
4 Magmortar
1 Mewtwo EX

along with these core Trainers:

3 Blacksmith
2 Colress
2 Evosoda
4 Fiery Torch (vs. Bicycle, but may go back or do combo)
4 Professor Juniper/Sycamore
2 Professor's Letter
1 Shauna
2 Ultra Ball

Hackurs said:
Also, wouldn't bp victini be useful for letting electivire be an alternate attack option based upon electrivire's attack?
Click to expand...
BP Victini?

My deck strategy has Electivire fulfilling only 2 objectives/roles in this deck: 1) sit on the bench and provide the +80 damage output for the Magmortars, and 2) 1HKO any Yveltal EXs, as needed. With the 4 DCEs, 2 L energy, and P Letters, Electivire will just chill on the bench until needed; otherwise Magmortar is the prime attacker. Keep in mind that there are only 2 L energy in the deck without any way of recovering it (assuming Super Rod rotates out).
 
TuxedoBlack said:
Hackurs said:
I'm curious though, why you think 4 evo soda is too many? I figure electivire and magmortar both benefit from it, and it provides them consistency of being available when needed. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious as to the reasoning behind it. It's likely an angle I haven't thought of yet.
Click to expand...
If I had any "angle" in mind, it was probably based upon my experience of having a strategy of getting basic Poke onto my bench fast and consistently T1/T2 by utilizing a "Ball" engine (not viable post-rotation) or Call for Family (CfF) Poke. Have to get Poke on the bench first before evolving is a priority for me when playing setup decks. Given your current deck list, you have:

  • Only 7 card-draw Supporters (which is quite insufficient, IMHO, for smooth, consistent deck operations - will not allow you to consistently draw into needed basic Poke early game),
  • No Poke search Supporters (i.e., Pokemon Fan Club), and
  • Only 2 Ultra Balls (your only basic Poke search Item - too few).
I believe there are just too many risks with your not being able to get your basic Poke out fast enough given these current constraints. So, 4 Evosodas would just not be that effective, IMHO; so, some Evosodas needed to be replaced.

Hackurs said:
What about dropping Shauna for sycamore, and then incorporating blacksmith/ poke fan club? I'm just worried about kangaskha/Reshiram not bring able to last long enough to have a useful cost/benefit ratio. Your thoughts?
Click to expand...
From my experience, I've successfully utilized both Reshiram (Outrage) and Kangaskhan for setup/protection duty in different decks. Both have better than average HP for a basic Poke and can usually take a hit or two providing some valuable setup time. Both of these Poke also have good attacks. Starting with an Outrage'ing Reshriram is just fun - will your opponent attack it T1 - maybe/maybe not... (just watch the facial expression of a VirGen deck player - lol) In any case, you have a solid secondary attacker that can be powered-up in one turn.

Kangaskhan can also take a hit or 2 sometimes before being KOd. Its Call for Family (for just C energy cost) attack can search and get 2 Poke to place on your bench. In doing so, you will have benched Poke early game that will make your Evosodas more effective. Another advantage of utilizing CfF Poke is that you are not using a Supporter for Poke searching - which could possibly "clash" with another Supporter you want to play during the same turn.

Consider trying different combos of Poke and Trainers till you find the one you like best.

From utilizing Blacksmith in my Charizard deck, that experience resulted in my needing to "balance" the total number of Supporters (to minimize Supporter "clashes"), along with needing to incorporate card-drawing Items. I'm currently testing (using proxies, of course) the following deck shell - which is working well for me:

3 Electabuzz
3 Electivire
3 Kangaskhan
4 Magmar
4 Magmortar
1 Mewtwo EX

along with these core Trainers:

3 Blacksmith
2 Colress
2 Evosoda
4 Fiery Torch (vs. Bicycle, but may go back or do combo)
4 Professor Juniper/Sycamore
2 Professor's Letter
1 Shauna
2 Ultra Ball

Hackurs said:
Also, wouldn't bp victini be useful for letting electivire be an alternate attack option based upon electrivire's attack?
Click to expand...
BP Victini?

My deck strategy has Electivire fulfilling only 2 objectives/roles in this deck: 1) sit on the bench and provide the +80 damage output for the Magmortars, and 2) 1HKO any Yveltal EXs, as needed. With the 4 DCEs, 2 L energy, and P Letters, Electivire will just chill on the bench until needed; otherwise Magmortar is the prime attacker. Keep in mind that there are only 2 L energy in the deck without any way of recovering it (assuming Super Rod rotates out).
Click to expand...

Ah, so I'm not the only who has thought of is deck idea. I was mildly surprised no one had made mention of it on the forums. Thanks for providing insight; you definitely had an angle I had overlooked- competitive experience. Admittedly, I don't play outside the house as much as I would like, and I didn't realize that CfF can be effective in the format, or that my supporter ratio was too low. Like you said, I was worried about them clashing, I just lack the experience to have the right feel for them. I'll review kangaskhan and Reshiram see how I want to go about them, and come back with an updated deck list. Thanks for the help and explaining the how and why for me. (I think that "bp" in front of victini is a typo. Sorry)

Edit: Do you just sacrifice kangaskhan rather than pay the retreat cost, or use it to attack as long as you an, then retreat it?

Pokemon (18):

4x magmar
4x magmortar
3x electabuzz
3x electivire
1x Mewtwo ex
3x Kangaskhan


Trainers (22):

2x evo soda
3x blacksmith
2x ultra ball
2x Colress
2x Professors letter
4x fiery torch
4x professor sycamore
3x muscle band


Energy (16):

10x fire
4x double colorless
2x lightning

I have 4 more trainer slots, but 8 viable options (listed below). Which do you think would be most viable? Or something altogether different?

2x switch
2x training center
2x Lysandre
2x startling megaphone
 
Hackurs said:
Edit: Do you just sacrifice kangaskhan rather than pay the retreat cost, or use it to attack as long as you an, then retreat it?
Click to expand...
The answer to your question will vary depending upon several factors including:

  • Can you or do you need to CfF multiple times even though Kang is taking hits?
  • If you can manage to CfF 2-3 times, do you have other needed resources available to start attacking or do you need Kang to remain in the active position to take a "hit for the team?" In other words, Kang needs to be sacrificed for better board position, draw into more or different resources, and/or get more Poke benched.
  • How many and what Poke does each player have in play, and how much energy is attached to these Poke?
  • Do you need to get more energy attached?
  • Could you retreat, promote another Poke and KO the defending Poke for the game win or KO an opponent's valuable resource?
So, after all is said and done, my response is: "it depends..." There are quite a few things to consider, but from my experience I've found that getting benched Poke in place, even at the cost of losing my initial Kang, was well worth it.

Hackurs said:
I have 4 more trainer slots, but 8 viable options (listed below). Which do you think would be most viable? Or something altogether different?

2x switch
2x training center
2x Lysandre
2x startling megaphone
Click to expand...
Let's first assume certain card sets, Next Destinies through Boundaries Crossed are indeed rotated out. Let's also assume the Poke stated above are in the deck too, along with "core" Trainers listed. So, finalizing the energy count and Trainers are all that remain before having an initial deck version (note: this is just the first before you starting "tweaking" it) for playtesting. Through playtesting, you will arrive at a deck that fits your playing style and strategy.

At this point where you are finalizing the last few deck card slots, I find it helpful to go through a "process of elimination and prioritization". For example, consider the following:

  • Do I need/want to provide extra support in order to protect any of my Poke from being KOd? NO With only 1 EX in the deck, more than likely your opponents will need to KO 6 of your Poke while on the other hand, you can target opponent's EXs (most decks will run EXs, IMHO) to 1HKO. This provides you an advantage. You run "high" counts of Magmortar and Electivire lines, so, "recovery and recycle" cards like Sacred Ash are not crticial to the success of your deck, IMHO.
  • Max HP for Magmortar and Electivire is 140 when Training Center is active. Can "most" decks "easily" inflict 140+ damage? YES So, will Training Center provide enough value to warrant card slots in the deck?
  • Should Hard Charms be incorporated into the deck to provide some additional protection? NO "Most" opponents' decks are "tuned" to inflict 170+ damage.
  • Given the very limited number of L energy, how can you search and get 1-2 when needed? Should a Professor's Letter be incorporated within the deck? YES
  • So on...
As you can see, for me at least, it's a process of evaluating, prioritizing and eliminating potential cards I might use. For this deck, I finalized my deck list to include:

  • 1 Pal Pad. Another favorite staple of mine. With this Item, you can actually get more use from your Supporters.
  • 2 Professor's Letter. Needed to retrieve necessary energy for discard "fodder" (to be used by Blacksmith later) or attachment purposes.
  • 1 Scramble Switch / Dowsing Machine. Still undecided; both have advantages.
  • 1 Startling Megaphone. Useful at times.
  • 1 Switch. Useful at times.
  • 8 Fire. Testing this initial number of R energy

    (May also need to add an Energy Retrieval in order to get needed energy from discard pile at times too.)
After you finalize your list, playtest, playtest, playtest till you arrive at a deck you like. Tweak it, as need be, and playtest some more. Use it in tournaments; tweak it some more... It's a process that's impacted by your local area, your playing style, and the current card sets. Lots of things to consider along the way to Poke stardom, but the journey is the real fun part. Enjoy.

I hope you find my comments helpful.
 
TuxedoBlack said:
Hackurs said:
Edit: Do you just sacrifice kangaskhan rather than pay the retreat cost, or use it to attack as long as you an, then retreat it?
Click to expand...
The answer to your question will vary depending upon several factors including:

  • Can you or do you need to CfF multiple times even though Kang is taking hits?
  • If you can manage to CfF 2-3 times, do you have other needed resources available to start attacking or do you need Kang to remain in the active position to take a "hit for the team?" In other words, Kang needs to be sacrificed for better board position, draw into more or different resources, and/or get more Poke benched.
  • How many and what Poke does each player have in play, and how much energy is attached to these Poke?
  • Do you need to get more energy attached?
  • Could you retreat, promote another Poke and KO the defending Poke for the game win or KO an opponent's valuable resource?
So, after all is said and done, my response is: "it depends..." There are quite a few things to consider, but from my experience I've found that getting benched Poke in place, even at the cost of losing my initial Kang, was well worth it.

Hackurs said:
I have 4 more trainer slots, but 8 viable options (listed below). Which do you think would be most viable? Or something altogether different?

2x switch
2x training center
2x Lysandre
2x startling megaphone
Click to expand...
Let's first assume certain card sets, Next Destinies through Boundaries Crossed are indeed rotated out. Let's also assume the Poke stated above are in the deck too, along with "core" Trainers listed. So, finaizing the energy count and Trainers are all that remain before having an initial deck version (note: this is just the first before you starting "tweaking" it) for playtesting. Through playtesting, you will arrive at a deck that fits your playing style and strategy.

At this point where you are fianlizing the last few deck card slots, I find it helpful to go through a "process of elimination and prioritization". For example, consider the following:

  • Do I need/want to provide extra support in order to protect any of my Poke from being KOd? NO With only 1 EX in the deck, more than likely your opponents will need to KO 6 of your Poke while on the other hand, you can target opponent's EXs (most decks will run EXs, IMHO) to 1HKO. This provides you an advantage. You run "high" counts of Magmortar and Electivire lines, so, "recovery and recycle" cards like Sacred Ash are not crticial to the success of your deck, IMHO.
  • Max HP for Magmortar and Electivire is 140 when Taining Center is active. Can "most" decks "easily" inflict 140+ damage? YES So, will Training Center provide enough value to warrant card slots in the deck?
  • Should Hard Charms be incorporated into the deck to provide some additional protection? NO "Most" opponents' decks are "tuned" to inflict 170+ damage.
  • Given the very limited number of L energy, how can you search and get 1-2 when needed? Should a Professor's Letter be incorporated within the deck? YES
  • So on...
As you can see, for me at least, it's a process of evaluating, prioritizing and eliminating potential cards I might use. For this deck, I finalized my deck list to include:

  • 1 Pal Pad. Another favorite staple of mine. With this Item, you can actually get more use from your Supporters.
  • 2 Professor's Letter. Needed to retrieve necessary energy for discard "fodder" (to be used by Blacksmith later) or attachment purposes.
  • 1 Scramble Switch / Dowsing Machine. Still undecided; both have advantages.
  • 1 Startling Megaphone. Useful at times.
  • 1 Switch. Useful at times.
  • 8 Fire. Testing this initial number of R energy

    (May also need to add an Energy Retrieval in order to get needed energy from discard pile at times too.)
After you finalize your list, playtest, playtest, playtest till you arrive at a deck you like. Tweak it, as need be, and playtest some more. Use it in tournaments; tweak it some more... It's a process that's impacted by your local area, your playing style, and the current card sets. Lots of things to consder along the way to Poke stardom, but the journey is the real fun part. Enjoy.

I hope you find my comments helpful.
Click to expand...

Extraordinarily so, thank you. Not sure how to inject the inflection of tone to express my level of gratitude and how impressed I am. Thanks again.
 
You are most welcomed and your thanks is enough. I'm glad to share my thoughts, as well as explain my reasoning/strategy (based upon my own playing style and approach to the game which may not always coincide with "mainstream" thinking).

Have fun.
 
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