XY Making Ice Types More Useful

[Makaio]

I hope this is the right thread, if not--whoops!

Anyway, I want to talk about Ice-types. Now, hear me out before you roll your eyes and click "x" on this specific thread. I was working today, and for some reason, I couldn't stop thinking about Ice-types. Perhaps because it's my favorite type or the announcement next week or I want to make Ice-types more useful and fun. I'm not talking about switching resistances/weaknesses or whatever.

I heard that Ice-types are meant to be "glass cannon" type which is total bull. It's not fair to the Ice-types because other types are fine, no issues at all (some people might think Grass isn't perfect but it's fine, at least in my opinion.)

I though of new moves and abilities that definitely helps the Ice-types to be more useful, quite challenging and most importantly fun!

For example;

Ice Shield-This is a move and ability that casts a hard ice shield around yourself granting resistances to Normal, Flying, Poison and Bug for three minutes.

(Now, when I said "For three minutes" rather than turns. Honestly, they kept nerfing/fixing it and I'm tired of it. I think a timer's smooth and cool idea.)

Glacial Shield-Again, a move and ability that casts a gleaming glacial ice around yourself granting resistances to Dark, Fairy, and Electric for a while.

Benumb-a move that prevents healing moves such as Absorb and Draining Kiss and it also decrease your HP every turn.

Heat Loss-a move that reduce all your PPs to 5 PPs and also lose your resistances.

Snow Storm-In my humblest opinion, I don't think they gonna add anything to Hail. I have no idea why, so I thought "why not add another ice-type weather move?" This is a move that halves your speed, and bring flying types to the ground.

There are many more moves I thought of (Due to working for nine hours hehe) but I'll stop for now and let people think of this.

 

[xxashxx]

RE: Ice-types

The thing is abilities never last 3 minutes. They last until the battle ends or is suppressed by some sort of attack like Acid or something like that. However it is a good start but I would like to see ice types have a wider range on the Super Effectiveness for Pokemon. Now that would be cool. I would also like to see higher PP on some moves. Ice Beam for instance only has 10PP. It should have 15PP evenough it has a 10% chance of freezing opponents. That is pretty low PP for that attack.

 

[Blob55]

RE: Ice-types

I've also been thinking about Ice types.

I think Hail should up Defense for Ice types by 50%.
I think there should be a Steel/Ice type Pokémon with Filter.
There should be a move stronger than Ice Beam, but more accurate than Blizzard and not just belong to a legendary (Preferably Physical).
More attack orientated Ice Types, as they suck defensively.
Also, Next Gen should give Ice Ground and Grass type resistance.

BTW, Heat Loss sounds more like an Ability, which makes Fire type moves not very effective.

 

[Makaio]

RE: Ice-types

The thing is abilities never last 3 minutes. They last until the battle ends or is suppressed by some sort of attack like Acid or something like that. However it is a good start but I would like to see ice types have a wider range on the Super Effectiveness for Pokemon. Now that would be cool. I would also like to see higher PP on some moves. Ice Beam for instance only has 10PP. It should have 15PP evenough it has a 10% chance of freezing opponents. That is pretty low PP for that attack.

I suppose that's true. However, sometimes I left the battling running more than three minutes because I was distracted by something else in RL. It happens often. Hehe.

Ice-types are so dangnabbit squishy, so I though shields/debuffs will gap the Ice-type weaknesses. I love Ice Beam but the 10% of freezing an opponent isn't that useful. In fact, they should create a freeze status. Ice-types have 4 (very common) weaknesses and one resistance. A frozen status wouldn't make them so OPed. They're not steel-types, you know? There's only one type that's completely immune to a frozen status which obviously are the Fire-types.

 

[Blob55]

RE: Ice-types

The thing is abilities never last 3 minutes. They last until the battle ends or is suppressed by some sort of attack like Acid or something like that. However it is a good start but I would like to see ice types have a wider range on the Super Effectiveness for Pokemon. Now that would be cool. I would also like to see higher PP on some moves. Ice Beam for instance only has 10PP. It should have 15PP evenough it has a 10% chance of freezing opponents. That is pretty low PP for that attack.

I suppose that's true. However, sometimes I left the battling running more than three minutes because I was distracted by something else in RL. It happens often. Hehe.

Ice-types are so dangnabbit squishy, so I though shields/debuffs will gap the Ice-type weaknesses. I love Ice Beam but the 10% of freezing an opponent isn't that useful. In fact, they should create a freeze status. Ice-types have 4 (very common) weaknesses and one resistance. A frozen status wouldn't make them so OPed. They're not steel-types, you know? There's only one type that's completely immune to a frozen status which obviously are the Fire-types.

So like Will-o-Wisp, but with Ice typing?

Also, Fire types thaw out faster, they're not immune to being Frozen.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

The type chart needs retconning if Ice type is to be remotely useful, either that or they need to make more offense oriented Ice types. Giving Ice a resistance to Ground would probably be the most useful resistance to add, as not only would it help out the weakest type in the game, but also help nerf one of the strongest types in the game. Resisting Dragon might be good too.

 

[Blob55]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

The type chart needs retconning if Ice type is to be remotely useful, either that or they need to make more offense oriented Ice types. Giving Ice a resistance to Ground would probably be the most useful resistance to add, as not only would it help out the weakest type in the game, but also help nerf one of the strongest types in the game. Resisting Dragon might be good too.

I really want to tell the guys who come up with the type chart a way they can fix Ice types. I really wish they knew how useless they are!
As I said before, Ice should be resistant to Ground and Grass types.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

I really want to tell the guys who come up with the type chart a way they can fix Ice types. I really wish they knew how useless they are!
As I said before, Ice should be resistant to Ground and Grass types.

Not Grass, that type is already too weak. It already has 5 weaknesses and is resisted by 7 types, it doesn't need to be made worse at all. In fact, Grass could be stand to made better as well. Ground and Dragon are better choices because they're strong types and could stand to be taken down a peg.

 

[Scattered mind]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

No moves can help Ice type IMO
GF needs to update the chart they had a chance to do so this gen and they just left Ice type the same .
Every Ice type Pokemon you see in OU is a Pokemon that could be ranked higher if it didn't have Ice type . At least thats how it feels.

 

[Blob55]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

No moves can help Ice type IMO
GF needs to update the chart they had a chance to do so this gen and they just left Ice type the same .
Every Ice type Pokemon you see in OU is a Pokemon that could be ranked higher if it didn't have Ice type . At least thats how it feels.

What about giving them a powerful physical move, better abilities, such as Filter, a move which has a 100% chance to freeze an opponent, more physical/special Ice types, resistance to ground and 50% defense boost in Hail?

I would say make a Sound/Noise type, because of all of the noise-related moves, but Ice would probably end up weak to that too, as it's like glass.

 

[Chaos Jackal]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

The only thing you people shouldn't expect are higher chances to freeze opponents. Freeze status is the strongest status in the game, afflicts all types except Ice and Magma Armor ability Pokemon, and leaves the target completely incapacitated, unlike Sleep, which allows for Snore/Sleep Talk.
Also, don't expect to make Ice-types better by adding stronger moves. Ice-type moves are very powerful offensively, and thus make for great coverage options, but they don't neutralize the Ice-type's horrible defensive capabilities. The only way to make Ice-types better is to review and remake the type chart.

 

[Blob55]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

The only thing you people shouldn't expect are higher chances to freeze opponents. Freeze status is the strongest status in the game, afflicts all types except Ice and Magma Armor ability Pokemon, and leaves the target completely incapacitated, unlike Sleep, which allows for Snore/Sleep Talk.
Also, don't expect to make Ice-types better by adding stronger moves. Ice-type moves are very powerful offensively, and thus make for great coverage options, but they don't neutralize the Ice-type's horrible defensive capabilities. The only way to make Ice-types better is to review and remake the type chart.

But I doubt they'd even do that, unless it's like 4 generations from now when they decide Sound should be a type and they nerf Ice type even more, but give it 50% defense boost in Hail.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

The only thing you people shouldn't expect are higher chances to freeze opponents. Freeze status is the strongest status in the game, afflicts all types except Ice and Magma Armor ability Pokemon, and leaves the target completely incapacitated, unlike Sleep, which allows for Snore/Sleep Talk.
Also, don't expect to make Ice-types better by adding stronger moves. Ice-type moves are very powerful offensively, and thus make for great coverage options, but they don't neutralize the Ice-type's horrible defensive capabilities. The only way to make Ice-types better is to review and remake the type chart.

But I doubt they'd even do that, unless it's like 4 generations from now when they decide Sound should be a type and they nerf Ice type even more, but give it 50% defense boost in Hail.

I'm not quite sure of that. They're probably keeping an eye on certain trends in the competitive environment, and I think if they notice things like Ice types being underused or Ground types being overused, they might make some improvements.

I think if they want to fix the type chart they would need two more types, and this would what they would have to do:

-One type super effective against Electric (this would mainly be done to nerf Ground, giving Electric another weakness would reduce Ground's monopoly on Electric types).
-One type would be weak to Ghost and another would be weak to Dark (so they're less interchangeable).
-Ice resists Ground, Dragon, and/or one of the new types.
-Anything that can help Grass, Rock, or Bug, preferably a resistance. But anything that doesn't give them another weakness or make the new type resist them would work.
Maybe they could also remove Fairy's resistance to Bug, which makes no sense and benefits no one.

Problem is, I can't think of any type concepts that would fit these requirements.

 

[Windwhip]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

But I doubt they'd even do that, unless it's like 4 generations from now when they decide Sound should be a type and they nerf Ice type even more, but give it 50% defense boost in Hail.

I'm not quite sure of that. They're probably keeping an eye on certain trends in the competitive environment, and I think if they notice things like Ice types being underused or Ground types being overused, they might make some improvements.

I think if they want to fix the type chart they would need two more types, and this would what they would have to do:

-One type super effective against Electric (this would mainly be done to nerf Ground, giving Electric another weakness would reduce Ground's monopoly on Electric types).
-One type would be weak to Ghost and another would be weak to Dark (so they're less interchangeable).
-Ice resists Ground, Dragon, and/or one of the new types.
-Anything that can help Grass, Rock, or Bug, preferably a resistance. But anything that doesn't give them another weakness or make the new type resist them would work.
Maybe they could also remove Fairy's resistance to Bug, which makes no sense and benefits no one.

Problem is, I can't think of any type concepts that would fit these requirements.

To be frank, Electric-types need to be nerf...bad--it only has one weakness. Perhaps a new type or Ice--I prefer the latter will be super-effective against Electric. I don't think it will hurt Ground-types because everyone favours EQ which is godly by the way.

Scattered Mind;
Who knows? It has been six generations and they still ignored Ice-type issues. Don't get your hopes high to get it fixed next generation. However, creating new moves might helps tons a lot (Like Makaio said before--Ice/Glacial Shields grants resistances to the caster and Heat Loss reduce the opponents' PPs to 5 PPs and lose their resistances.) That sounds awesome. If you prefer to give new resistances/changing weakness to Ice-types, that will lead to complications...

Edit: Forgot to mention one more thing.

-New type SE against Electric: Wind (Don't get me start to talk trash on Flying-types! Moving on)
-Ghost/Dark surely don't need more weaknesses. Three are enough.
-Ice type should resist against Ground, Dragon, and Wind. (Possibly Electric?)
-Grass/Bug/Rock need help? They are very vulnerable types. Imagine them being so uber powerful in reality...yeah no. Grass/Bug/Rock are fine really. SR is uber. Grass have stupidly powerful statuses. Bugs....sorry, I got nothing!

 

[Leaf_Ranger]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

What can I say about this? Keep Ice as it is.
I'm a Grass-type Trainer and I know how difficult it is to battle with these but instead of asking for new and updated type charts, I wait for another thing they can make: create new Pokémon with new type combinations - that way we'll see new creatures, which in my opinion is the best.
People should just stop trying to think of new ways to balance the types like this. By Arceus, this is applying to Pokémon that stupid idea that everyone can be a winner. There are strong people and weak people and so too stronger types and weaker types. The type chart was updated this generation, so if GF were to find that Ice-type Pokémon have problems that really need an answer, then they would have done it.

Life has challenges and so the games. It's no wonder the games are always released as a pair and so don't go thinking that having stronger and weaker types don't have a purpose or even a message. Have fun with your favorite Pokémon.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

To be frank, Electric-types need to be nerf...bad--it only has one weakness. Perhaps a new type or Ice--I prefer the latter will be super-effective against Electric. I don't think it will hurt Ground-types because everyone favours EQ which is godly by the way.

Just because a type has one weakness doesn't make it OP. OP-ness goes deeper than that. It's based on total type coverage (not just weaknesses, but type advantages, resistances, immunities, etc. but also moves and Pokemon). Electric is a decent type, but it's not OP because it doesn't have phenomenal coverage or anything that makes it a particularly dominant type.

Now Ground on the other hand? That's much more OP. It's SE against 5 types, only weak to 3 types, is only resisted by 2 types, is immune to 1 type and ineffective against 1 type. Not to mention that as I said earlier, it has a virtual monopoly on Electric type coverage being the only type good against it, and as you said earlier EQ is an insanely powerful move. So the type chart works in its favor and there's several strong options for it, so the type definitely needs to be brought down a peg.

So no, I think Electric only being weak to Ground really benefits Ground more than Electric.

Who knows? It has been six generations and they still ignored Ice-type issues. Don't get your hopes high to get it fixed next generation. However, creating new moves might helps tons a lot (Like Makaio said before--Ice/Glacial Shields grants resistances to the caster and Heat Loss reduce the opponents' PPs to 5 PPs and lose their resistances.) That sounds awesome. If you prefer to give new resistances/changing weakness to Ice-types, that will lead to complications...

Well now that they're paying attention to tournaments and the competitive environment, they might be more inclined to notice it. Especially this generation now that Fairy has taken away its niche against Dragon types.

-New type SE against Electric: Wind (Don't get me start to trash talk on Flying-types! Moving on)

How else would it relate to other types? Simply mentioning one type advantage doesn't give you the full picture on whether or not it fixes the type chart, you have to choose weaknesses/resistances/immunities/etc. very carefully to ensure that you don't cause more problems. Case in point, look at what Fairy has done to Dark and Bug. It nerfed them both and they're less useful now. You have to be careful that you don't end up making a particular type underpowered with the addition of a new type.

-Ghost/Dark surely don't need more weaknesses. Three are enough.

First of all, Ghost only has two weaknesses. Second, I said it should be SE against another type, not weak to another type. Ghost and Dark's problem is that they share the same type advantages (Psychic and Ghost) which makes them interchangeable in offense. The problem is that if they simply give one type a new type advantage and ignore the other, you get the same sort of scenario that Poison and Steel had before Fairy, the other type can do its job better so why use it? So they definitely do not want that to happen, they'd need two more types that so that Dark and Ghost can each be SE against one, then they each have unique SEs but one type isn't particularly better than the other.

-Ice type should resist against Ground, Dragon, and Wind. (Possibly Electric?)

How does Ice resisting Electric make sense? Furthermore, Electric probably doesn't need to be resisted by another type, it's already resisted by itself, Grass, and Dragon and is ineffective against Ground.

-Grass/Bug/Rock need help? They are very vulnerable types. Imagine them being so uber powerful in reality...yeah no. Grass/Bug/Rock are fine really. SR is uber. Grass have stupidly powerful statuses. Bugs....sorry, I got nothing!

SR is uber because it was a stupid idea for entry hazards to be affected by type matchups, they should be fixing that instead of using that as an excuse not to fix the type's general problems. As for Grass types and status, I guess, but when you have half of the type chart resisting it, it's a problem. Same with Bug. Rock has the problem of being a defensive type in concept, but doesn't really function well as one due to the type chart giving it a slew of weaknesses and not that many resistances, so actually it pretty much needs resistances or an immunity.

 

[Windwhip]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

To be frank, Electric-types need to be nerf...bad--it only has one weakness. Perhaps a new type or Ice--I prefer the latter will be super-effective against Electric. I don't think it will hurt Ground-types because everyone favours EQ which is godly by the way.

Just because a type has one weakness doesn't make it OP. OP-ness goes deeper than that. It's based on total type coverage (not just weaknesses, but type advantages, resistances, immunities, etc. but also moves and Pokemon). Electric is a decent type, but it's not OP because it doesn't have phenomenal coverage or anything that makes it a particularly dominant type.

Now Ground on the other hand? That's much more OP. It's SE against 5 types, only weak to 3 types, is only resisted by 2 types, is immune to 1 type and ineffective against 1 type. Not to mention that as I said earlier, it has a virtual monopoly on Electric type coverage being the only type good against it, and as you said earlier EQ is an insanely powerful move. So the type chart works in its favor and there's several strong options for it, so the type definitely needs to be brought down a peg.

So no, I think Electric only being weak to Ground really benefits Ground more than Electric.

Who knows? It has been six generations and they still ignored Ice-type issues. Don't get your hopes high to get it fixed next generation. However, creating new moves might helps tons a lot (Like Makaio said before--Ice/Glacial Shields grants resistances to the caster and Heat Loss reduce the opponents' PPs to 5 PPs and lose their resistances.) That sounds awesome. If you prefer to give new resistances/changing weakness to Ice-types, that will lead to complications...

Well now that they're paying attention to tournaments and the competitive environment, they might be more inclined to notice it. Especially this generation now that Fairy has taken away its niche against Dragon types.

-New type SE against Electric: Wind (Don't get me start to trash talk on Flying-types! Moving on)

How else would it relate to other types? Simply mentioning one type advantage doesn't give you the full picture on whether or not it fixes the type chart, you have to choose weaknesses/resistances/immunities/etc. very carefully to ensure that you don't cause more problems. Case in point, look at what Fairy has done to Dark and Bug. It nerfed them both and they're less useful now. You have to be careful that you don't end up making a particular type underpowered with the addition of a new type.

-Ghost/Dark surely don't need more weaknesses. Three are enough.

First of all, Ghost only has two weaknesses. Second, I said it should be SE against another type, not weak to another type. Ghost and Dark's problem is that they share the same type advantages (Psychic and Ghost) which makes them interchangeable in offense. The problem is that if they simply give one type a new type advantage and ignore the other, you get the same sort of scenario that Poison and Steel had before Fairy, the other type can do its job better so why use it? So they definitely do not want that to happen, they'd need two more types that so that Dark and Ghost can each be SE against one, then they each have unique SEs but one type isn't particularly better than the other.

-Ice type should resist against Ground, Dragon, and Wind. (Possibly Electric?)

How does Ice resisting Electric make sense? Furthermore, Electric probably doesn't need to be resisted by another type, it's already resisted by itself, Grass, and Dragon and is ineffective against Ground.

-Grass/Bug/Rock need help? They are very vulnerable types. Imagine them being so uber powerful in reality...yeah no. Grass/Bug/Rock are fine really. SR is uber. Grass have stupidly powerful statuses. Bugs....sorry, I got nothing!

SR is uber because it was a stupid idea for entry hazards to be affected by type matchups, they should be fixing that instead of using that as an excuse not to fix the type's general problems. As for Grass types and status, I guess, but when you have half of the type chart resisting it, it's a problem. Same with Bug. Rock has the problem of being a defensive type in concept, but doesn't really function well as one due to the type chart giving it a slew of weaknesses and not that many resistances, so actually it pretty much needs resistances or an immunity.

Welp! I though Ghost have three types. (Aka Normal, forgot it isn't--Hard to keep up! )

Anyway, like I said, this is getting more complicated. Let's hope GF will have something better in the future.

 

[Blob55]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

Who knows? It has been six generations and they still ignored Ice-type issues.

Actually, they nerfed Ice type in Gen 2, by giving it one more weakness and making two more Pokémon resistant to it. GF just haven't fixed it much since, other than being immune to Hail in Gen 3 and Frozen status in Gen 4.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

Anyway, like I said, this is getting more complicated. Let's hope GF will have something better in the future.

Not that complicated really. You just have to be careful about which types you pick.

---

What can I say about this? Keep Ice as it is.
I'm a Grass-type Trainer and I know how difficult it is to battle with these but instead of asking for new and updated type charts, I wait for another thing they can make: create new Pokémon with new type combinations - that way we'll see new creatures, which in my opinion is the best.
People should just stop trying to think of new ways to balance the types like this. By Arceus, this is applying to Pokémon that stupid idea that everyone can be a winner. There are strong people and weak people and so too stronger types and weaker types. The type chart was updated this generation, so if GF were to find that Ice-type Pokémon have problems that really need an answer, then they would have done it.

Life has challenges and so the games. It's no wonder the games are always released as a pair and so don't go thinking that having stronger and weaker types don't have a purpose or even a message. Have fun with your favorite Pokémon.

It's true that they can't make types exactly equal, but what they can do is narrow the inequality gap between types. Standout issues like Ice only resisting itself or Electric only being weak to Ground are definitely fixable, it won't kill them to fix those types. And while types like Grass, Rock, and Bug may never be powerhouse types, they should definitely avoid making them worse, and even make them a little better if they have the chance.

 

[Leaf_Ranger]

RE: Making Ice-types More Useful

(...)

What can I say about this? Keep Ice as it is.
I'm a Grass-type Trainer and I know how difficult it is to battle with these but instead of asking for new and updated type charts, I wait for another thing they can make: create new Pokémon with new type combinations - that way we'll see new creatures, which in my opinion is the best.
People should just stop trying to think of new ways to balance the types like this. By Arceus, this is applying to Pokémon that stupid idea that everyone can be a winner. There are strong people and weak people and so too stronger types and weaker types. The type chart was updated this generation, so if GF were to find that Ice-type Pokémon have problems that really need an answer, then they would have done it.

Life has challenges and so the games. It's no wonder the games are always released as a pair and so don't go thinking that having stronger and weaker types don't have a purpose or even a message. Have fun with your favorite Pokémon.

It's true that they can't make types exactly equal, but what they can do is narrow the inequality gap between types. Standout issues like Ice only resisting itself or Electric only being weak to Ground are definitely fixable, it won't kill them to fix those types. And while types like Grass, Rock, and Bug may never be powerhouse types, they should definitely avoid making them worse, and even make them a little better if they have the chance.

You're correct, but then again, I don't know if that's good because that would still make things easier when narrowing the gap. Most of this type of threads are based on competitive value and while I do recognize that that's an (or one of the most) important point in the game, I think it's better to have things like they are, otherwise, while some types would get more fans, that attention would be mostly because of their new competitve value and not because of a true love for that type.