Discussion Most Broken Pokemon Cards

It doesn't provide a defense against them, it just speeds up the pace of Evolving... which unless it was worded otherwise, also applies to some Pokémon-EX (Mega Evolutions and whatever they cook up later).

Pokémon-EX are not broken as a mechanic; you get a Pokémon that usually has higher-than-normal HP for whatever Pokémon it is and may get an Ability, Ancient Trait and/or attack that also is better than normal for all that is involved but at the cost of:
  • Being worth an additional Prize when KOed
  • Being the target of certain counter cards already in the environment
  • Being unable to access certain pieces of the support
An important thing is that those last two really shouldn't have been necessary because seriously, giving up an additional Prizes should have been enough. In fact it does matter: there have been a lot of Pokémon-EX which have been under powered and either seldom used or only useful for a very short time. There are many non-Pokémon-EX Basic, Stage 1 and Stage 2 cards that are far more abusively powerful than these Pokémon-EX. The real problem is, in a word pacing: the game is literally being pushed to run faster than its mechanics were designed to allow it to run.

The pacing issues would be made worse by a card like Broken Time-Space returning... which we are already seeing with Forest of Giant Plants: Expanded gets what I hope was an accidental First Turn Win deck and I fear I was far too dismissive of Giratina-EX (ANO) and Vileplume (ANO) decks... in large part because I forgot they can attempt to spam Shaymin-EX (ROS). Oh look, tying things all together again: Shaymin-EX. For the record on the PTCGO (only place where I play) I not only have but have had four for a while (made it a priority). I even managed to pull a lucky Full Art version from a trade locked pack one of the first few such boosters I got, so it isn't a matter of being "jealous" or lacking the card. Ability based draw allows some stupid fast set-ups right now and enables a lot of combos that frankly suck the fun out of being the opponent. Contrary to popular belief, losing isn't supposed to be 100% awful; it is just supposed to be "less fun" than winning. You're not supposed to play the game just because you've got a chance at winning, but because you enjoy playing.

Well, that is how I'd put it, anyway.

Addendum: I won't post it right now because long post is long, but I have a great example of how important it is to apportion "blame" for imbalance and pacing issues in a format... and it involves Base Set through Fossil.

Pokemon-EX are not broken as a mechanic, but they are broken due to their implementation into the TCG. Although we've had AMAZING stage-2 cards recently (Empoleon, Shiftry FLF, Blaziken FFI, Blaziken PCL, Garchomp DRX), none of them have seen major tournament success, except for Empoleon. Why is this?

I recently played against a FluffyChomp deck in Expanded with an Yveltal list. I won handily. Why was that? It was a lot easier for me to load a 170 HP Basic with a Dark and a DCE to just start taking potshots at his board than for him to load up a Stage 2 with a Fighting and a Water energy each, a Silver Bangle, and two Stage 1s on the bench. Granted, he had Gabite's Dragon Call to stream Dragons, but I was able to kill it quickly. He did get 150 damage onto an Yveltal-EX with a Garchomp, but I was able to retreat and power up a 3 energy Yveltal-EX in a single turn.

If the EXs were to have much worse attacks, I would be comfortable with them (see Blastoise-EX and Venusaur-EX). However, that is unfortunately not the case, with the ability to do things like 30 and 1 sided item lock for [C][C], 120 damage for [L][C], 90 damage with 30 snipe for [D][D][C]. Worst of all, all of these cards have really good support.
 
We are about to get into why I keep stressing how important it is to properly identify what does and does not work, how it does not work and why it does not work.

Pokemon-EX are not broken as a mechanic, but they are broken due to their implementation into the TCG. Although we've had AMAZING stage-2 cards recently (Empoleon, Shiftry FLF, Blaziken FFI, Blaziken PCL, Garchomp DRX), none of them have seen major tournament success, except for Empoleon. Why is this?

Because people tend to gloss over them? ;)

Though I included an emoticon to soften the blow, forgetting what has been used successfully as well as overgeneralizing what is "amazing" are half the issues here (I'll get to the rest in a moment). Out of what you list, I'd only credit Empoleon (DEX/PLF) as being "amazing" and I might not call it even that... but I wouldn't call most cards "amazing". Empoleon has been "great" during its high points and is still a very, very good card. The others vary from "solid" (definitely not bad, but not really good either) to "very good".

Let us look at the Top 8 for each age bracket in the U.S. Nationals for 2015 for some that have been forgotten about:

  • Crobat (PHF) was a major part of the 1st and 2nd place finishers for Juniors, a semi-finalist and a Top 8 finish for Seniors and a Top 8 finish for Masters.
  • Empoleon (though played via Archie's Ace in the Hole) was included in a semi-finalist and a Top 8 finishing deck for Seniors as well as one semi-finalist's deck for Masters.
  • Klinklang (PLS) a.k.a. Klinklang [Plasma] managed a Top 8 finish in the Masters division.
That may not sound like much and it isn't, but neither is it paltry. You have to have a Basic Pokémon in order to have a legal deck, so all decks will include them. Even looking at non-Evolving and/or Pokémon-EX Basics, they are always going to be easier to include in a deck so it is unrealistic to think that they would not be more represented in decks. So seven out of 24 or nearly a third of the decks used a Stage 2 for something.

To avoid making this a truly massive post, I'll point out that
  • originally Pokémon-EX were being used to represent Legendary Pokémon that are hard to do justice otherwise
  • Evolutions are hurt because their lower Stages are filler, not because their final forms are bad or because everything else is broken
  • a lot of what does seem broken comes from other card effects (other Pokémon or Trainers or Energy) and rarely the Pokémon itself
  • Mega Evolutions make things more complicated and were a terrible idea for the video games. -_-
 
We are about to get into why I keep stressing how important it is to properly identify what does and does not work, how it does not work and why it does not work.



Because people tend to gloss over them? ;)

Though I included an emoticon to soften the blow, forgetting what has been used successfully as well as overgeneralizing what is "amazing" are half the issues here (I'll get to the rest in a moment). Out of what you list, I'd only credit Empoleon (DEX/PLF) as being "amazing" and I might not call it even that... but I wouldn't call most cards "amazing". Empoleon has been "great" during its high points and is still a very, very good card. The others vary from "solid" (definitely not bad, but not really good either) to "very good".

Let us look at the Top 8 for each age bracket in the U.S. Nationals for 2015 for some that have been forgotten about:

  • Crobat (PHF) was a major part of the 1st and 2nd place finishers for Juniors, a semi-finalist and a Top 8 finish for Seniors and a Top 8 finish for Masters.
  • Empoleon (though played via Archie's Ace in the Hole) was included in a semi-finalist and a Top 8 finishing deck for Seniors as well as one semi-finalist's deck for Masters.
  • Klinklang (PLS) a.k.a. Klinklang [Plasma] managed a Top 8 finish in the Masters division.
That may not sound like much and it isn't, but neither is it paltry. You have to have a Basic Pokémon in order to have a legal deck, so all decks will include them. Even looking at non-Evolving and/or Pokémon-EX Basics, they are always going to be easier to include in a deck so it is unrealistic to think that they would not be more represented in decks. So seven out of 24 or nearly a third of the decks used a Stage 2 for something.

To avoid making this a truly massive post, I'll point out that
  • originally Pokémon-EX were being used to represent Legendary Pokémon that are hard to do justice otherwise
  • Evolutions are hurt because their lower Stages are filler, not because their final forms are bad or because everything else is broken
  • a lot of what does seem broken comes from other card effects (other Pokémon or Trainers or Energy) and rarely the Pokémon itself
  • Mega Evolutions make things more complicated and were a terrible idea for the video games. -_-
I agree w/ everything, except for the filler argument.

For Crobat, you've got a Basic with free retreat and a fighting resistance (always good), and a Stage 1 that places 2 damage counters wherever and an attack that does 10 damage to every opponent's Pokemon for [C]. While it's not amazing, it is situationally good, being able to stack damage on Robo Subs.
For Klinklang, you've got a basic with an attack that reduces damage by 20, while it isn't amazing, it's nice to see Landorus' Hammerhead only doing 10 damage.
For Empoleon, you've got the same exact thing as Klinklang, a basic w/ an attack that reduces damage by 20.
For Shiftry, you've got a basic that can search your deck for any basic and put it onto the bench, allowing you to swarm Shiftrys even faster.
For Blaziken, you've got a basic that gets fire energy into the discard and can draw you up to 4 cards, allowing you to Blacksmith, Rare Cand, Blaziken next turn more easily.
For Garchomp, you've got a basic that can stop your opponent attacking, and a stage 1 that searches out any dragon type from your deck, once per turn, allowing you to swarm Garchomps that much easier.
 
Just gonna point out a few things:

* Crobat is viable specifically because its basics and stage 1s are not filler. Had Golbat not have its ability or free retreat, it would have been much, much worse. Problem is that it is the exception, rather than a rule.
* Everything else except Garchomp lack a decent Stage 1.
* For all the Basics, are they worth the space of using them? The only ones I'd consider passable are Piplup, Torchic and Seedot, but all of those don't have good Stage 1s. It would be nice if they had the strength of the Basics back in the DP era. Take Gastly SF for an example:

gastly-stormfront-sf-62-312x429.jpg


On second thoughts, I might as well just pop in the whole line, as an example of my close-to-ideal power level.

haunter-stormfront-sf-40-312x429.jpg


gengar-stormfront-sf-18-312x429.jpg
 
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@tototavros glad you got most of it; the part where you still take issue is as @Rakkis157 is pointing out, how the exceptions are largely the ones still on top. Ideally I think Evolving Basics (especially twice Evolving Basics) are the perfect choice for "opening" Pokémon (Pokémon that have something making them desirable with to open the game or use first turn). Thanks to the current first turn rules (a patch to fix other problems with the game, but which causes its own problems) I'm not sure how well that would work.

Crobat (PHF) is largely an example of how to do it right, though keep in mind that Zubat (PLS #53) has played an important part (we'll see how things go when we have to use a different Zubat for Standard). For now though we have a Stage 2 that is solid straight through, quite a rarity!

Check out this older evolution line for another solid example (though not perfect):

Totodile-Mysterious-Treasures-106.jpg
Croconaw-Mysterious-Treasures-44.jpg

Feraligatr-Mysterious-Treasures-8.jpg


Bite wasn't amazing back then but it wasn't worthless first turn and allowed you to harass the opponent's Active without dedicating Energy, while Shining Fang might barely prove worth it when you just needed a quick and dirty 20 damage to finish something off? Not how I recommend they make twice Evolving Basics work now (short version: the designers have proven we can't have damaging attacks first turn because combos @_@), but retool Lapras (XY) into a Totodile and make it so there is no way to access Hydropump first turn and... you'd be there.

Croconaw isn't perfect either, but it gave you a solid way to help fuel the effect clause of Energy Cyclone (sometimes the actual Energy costs). Even at a time when Rare Candy could still be used on a "fresh" Basic, this gave players a reason to manually Evolve into Croconaw and then Feraligatr. Feraligatr wasn't a top deck of the time, but it seemed at least... adequate. Probably not showing up at a lot of Top Cuts but something that would beat you if you yourself weren't playing a top deck... or weren't just a little less skilled/lucky than your opponent.
 
@tototavros glad you got most of it; the part where you still take issue is as @Rakkis157 is pointing out, how the exceptions are largely the ones still on top. Ideally I think Evolving Basics (especially twice Evolving Basics) are the perfect choice for "opening" Pokémon (Pokémon that have something making them desirable with to open the game or use first turn). Thanks to the current first turn rules (a patch to fix other problems with the game, but which causes its own problems) I'm not sure how well that would work.

Crobat (PHF) is largely an example of how to do it right, though keep in mind that Zubat (PLS #53) has played an important part (we'll see how things go when we have to use a different Zubat for Standard). For now though we have a Stage 2 that is solid straight through, quite a rarity!

Check out this older evolution line for another solid example (though not perfect):

Totodile-Mysterious-Treasures-106.jpg
Croconaw-Mysterious-Treasures-44.jpg

Feraligatr-Mysterious-Treasures-8.jpg


Bite wasn't amazing back then but it wasn't worthless first turn and allowed you to harass the opponent's Active without dedicating Energy, while Shining Fang might barely prove worth it when you just needed a quick and dirty 20 damage to finish something off? Not how I recommend they make twice Evolving Basics work now (short version: the designers have proven we can't have damaging attacks first turn because combos @_@), but retool Lapras (XY) into a Totodile and make it so there is no way to access Hydropump first turn and... you'd be there.

Croconaw isn't perfect either, but it gave you a solid way to help fuel the effect clause of Energy Cyclone (sometimes the actual Energy costs). Even at a time when Rare Candy could still be used on a "fresh" Basic, this gave players a reason to manually Evolve into Croconaw and then Feraligatr. Feraligatr wasn't a top deck of the time, but it seemed at least... adequate. Probably not showing up at a lot of Top Cuts but something that would beat you if you yourself weren't playing a top deck... or weren't just a little less skilled/lucky than your opponent.
On vacation, I was bored, so I decided to take some time and make some Pokemon cards, and I decided to try to follow the idea of making every single Pokemon in the evolutionary line relatively playable (not playable on it's own, mind you; just decent cards), and it is incredibly hard making 30 or so Basics that are all different (relatively) but are still decent. Add to that 20 or so stage 1s, and I understand why PCL has sort of given up on that concept.
 
Crobat (PHF) is largely an example of how to do it right
What I get from this:
How to do it right = stage 2 pokemon with good effects and decent attacks that you often would use only when you cannot attack with the overpowered basics; i.e. bench sitter.
I disagree. A stage 2 pokemon doing it right would be Flygon from Rising Rivals or Kingdra from HGSS Unleashed - relative to the respective formats. Crobat is good, but it's not really an example of "doing it right" - relative to the format. After all, what does it do? It's support for the overpowered basic pokemon.
 
On vacation, I was bored, so I decided to take some time and make some Pokemon cards, and I decided to try to follow the idea of making every single Pokemon in the evolutionary line relatively playable (not playable on it's own, mind you; just decent cards), and it is incredibly hard making 30 or so Basics that are all different (relatively) but are still decent. Add to that 20 or so stage 1s, and I understand why PCL has sort of given up on that concept.

I can agree. To be honest, I'm ok if some of the lines are completely filler, as long as the ones that aren't filler get decent pre-Evos that are not filler as well. That way we can see some viable Stage 2s being played alongside Big Basics. Even if it means reusing old concepts (as if we don't get those already).

What I get from this:
How to do it right = stage 2 pokemon with good effects and decent attacks that you often would use only when you cannot attack with the overpowered basics; i.e. bench sitter.
I disagree. A stage 2 pokemon doing it right would be Flygon from Rising Rivals or Kingdra from HGSS Unleashed - relative to the respective formats. Crobat is good, but it's not really an example of "doing it right" - relative to the format. After all, what does it do? It's support for the overpowered basic pokemon.

We weren't referring to how Crobat was played, given that Crobat was indeed designed as a Bench sitter. We were referring to how space efficient Crobat is in comparison to other Stage 2s, which led it to be played in large numbers in a good number of decks. This is thanks to it having a better 'foundation' than other Stage 2s with its pre-evolved forms being useful. It is this trait that we need to achieve when designing attacking Stage 2s, because they need to be able to be worth streaming in order to be used as an attacker.

So basically, how to do it right = Useful Stage 2 and/or Useful Stage 1 + Useful Basic.

Just to note, Flygon Rising Rivals does fit the bill of useful pre-evolutions, having innate Energy Acceleration from Trapinch and a pretty decent (albeit situational) attack of Vibrava. The Trapinch has a fair amount of synergy with Flygon's Ability, too.
 
On vacation, I was bored, so I decided to take some time and make some Pokemon cards, and I decided to try to follow the idea of making every single Pokemon in the evolutionary line relatively playable (not playable on it's own, mind you; just decent cards), and it is incredibly hard making 30 or so Basics that are all different (relatively) but are still decent. Add to that 20 or so stage 1s, and I understand why PCL has sort of given up on that concept.

1) You're not a professional game designer that did this as part of a team, right? ;) I've tried myself and it isn't easy, but it is doable and frankly I'd rather have a smaller card pool with more quality cards than a technically larger card pool but so much of it only matters when the-powers-that-be mess up and their filler turns out to be relevant to the format.

2) Evolving Stages don't all have to be particularly original; it isn't like they are now! The difference is instead of being nigh useless and repetitious, we want to help them be useful even if they are still repetitious.

3) There are some design decisions that could be made to help out the-powers-that-be as well... maybe if it works out we can bring those up as well. A lot of them have to deal with the mechanics I think make the game more prone to malfunction, like Weakness doubling damage and HP scores being too narrow a range, plus starting too low given what damage output is like.

What I get from this:
How to do it right = stage 2 pokemon with good effects and decent attacks that you often would use only when you cannot attack with the overpowered basics; i.e. bench sitter.
I disagree. A stage 2 pokemon doing it right would be Flygon from Rising Rivals or Kingdra from HGSS Unleashed - relative to the respective formats. Crobat is good, but it's not really an example of "doing it right" - relative to the format. After all, what does it do? It's support for the overpowered basic pokemon.

This seems a bit like confirmation bias.

You'll notice I tend to make really long posts and most of the time, I am actually cutting myself short. I actually have a bit of a... complex due to people making assumptions about what I've written or said and to "protect" myself I naturally try to cover every angle that occurs to me. Please do not give me reason to regress even further. ;) This turned out so long I'm actually putting everything but a TL;DR in spoiler tags to make it more manageable.

Crobat (PHF) was cited as a good example because it has seen some recent, high level successful competitive play and as such should be familiar to people. However, just because I used it as a "good example" does not mean all such Stage 2 Pokémon should be Psychic-Type Stage 2 Pokémon named "Crobat" etc. etc. You assumed I was only interested in Stage 2 Pokémon as "Bench-sitters" and so you interpreted my statement in that manner, even though when I allowed myself an older card example I went for one that was clearly a main attacker (the above Feraligatr).

My actual stance is that full Evolved Pokémon barring Mega Evolutions (because I'm still figuring them out) ought to be on more or less even footing for their role in a deck. Some roles are better served by Basics, because being a Stage 2 that works as an opening Pokémon requires rewriting the rules or complicated effects. Being the main attacker as a Stage 2 without just ending up with either the opposite problem or a lone exception requires really understanding where things are breaking down. I've been playing this game since 1999 and there were formats where non-Evolving Basic Pokémon were garbage. Why? They were intentionally nerfed so that Evolutions could compete, but instead it meant Evolutions dominated in a manner akin to how Basics are dominant now!

A few years ago it occurred to me; if I want all fully Evolved Pokémon to be equals... why was I thinking they had to be so different? The problem isn't that there is a big, Basic attacker (Pokémon-EX or otherwise), the problem is that the Evolving Stages that lead into the final Stage of Evolution are usually stepping stones that are doing well if they don't hurt the lines chances of success as opposed to actually contributing to it and the pacing issues I've touched upon earlier. We don't need to speed up Evolution: it has been done before and while I remember some of the formats involving it fondly, I can't say it worked. We tried beefing up Evolutions in others ways and again, same deal. So if Evolutions need time to Evolve... why not give it to them?

Now make the Evolving Pokémon useful while making sure that big, Basic attackers are properly paced. Doing this would even out the speed and the card advantages of Basics without truly nerfing them. The only differences the designers need to have between fully Evolved Pokémon of different Stages is to remember what effects would be broken specifically because of the Stage. For example, if a particular Ability is abusive first turn of the game, we make sure it is on a Stage 2 that can't get into play that quickly. We stop giving big, Basic Pokémon good supporting attacks that allow them to be their own "opener" in addition to being the "main attacker"; they can be one or the other but not both!

There is nothing inherent to Crobat that is must be used by overpowered Basic Pokémon. Remember when Rare Candy could be used on a Basic you just put into play? Even on your first turn? I do and I remember Pidgeot (EX: FireRed/LeafGreen 10/112) being used in the majority of decks, including those with Stage 2 Pokémon either attacking or with another Stage 2 Bench-sitter. It also isn't a one way street in that if we did have a sufficiently overpowered Stage 2 Pokémon main attacker to hang with the current Top 10-20% of cards that make up the competitive format (most of which I think are to some degree broken), then wanna bet it would run Shaymin-EX (ROS) if it was at all plausible?

TL;DR: This is what happens when I say one thing and someone takes it a different way... regardless of what I've said elsewhere or in this thread. ;) I pointed out that while it is harder than releasing sets with mostly filler, that doesn't mean resorting to this kind of filler is justified (response to @tototavros quoted comment) and then I explained that @Dêâthbêâm put a lot of words into my mouth... words that contradict what I have often said elsewhere for the last few years (at least) so I tried to leave little room for that to happen again.
 
How so? We do have examples of EXs that are not broken.
I don't think that's the point. You could probably grab most Basic EXs and reintroduce them to a Pre-NXD format, and they will probably break the game. EXs have literally rendered most evolution decks unviable due to how fast the Basic versions are.

Basically, these 'not-broken EXs' are not broken in a format with other EXs, but in the early BW format, which is why the mechanic has broken the game.
 
In theory, Stage 1/2 get killed in one shot, while taking turns to be set up,
while exs can be set up in one turn, and get two shotted
You get "out tempoed" (not an actual thing in pokemon tcg, this game is too luck based)
and eventually lose the game, because something as stupid as Zekrom EX (two simple energies for an okay attack and 180 HP) can just sweep a game
Next time you go to a prerelease, and pack an ex, just play the one ex card and 39 energies. you'll understand the terrible mechanic pokemon has made.
 
I don't think that's the point. You could probably grab most Basic EXs and reintroduce them to a Pre-NXD format, and they will probably break the game. EXs have literally rendered most evolution decks unviable due to how fast the Basic versions are.

That problem has more to do with those specific EXs honestly, being designed to be good at all stages of the game.
 
OT: Lysandre's Trump Card is the most broken card Pokemon has printed of that wasn't a mistake (Neo Slowking and Sneasel)
Sableye from DP:Stormfront was also an insane card for its time (disregard "sabldonk")
Broken Time Space, no need for explanation
Computer Search, Junk Arm, Itemfinder
Pokemon Catcher before errata (Gust of Wind)
 
In theory, Stage 1/2 get killed in one shot, while taking turns to be set up,
while exs can be set up in one turn, and get two shotted
You get "out tempoed" (not an actual thing in pokemon tcg, this game is too luck based)
and eventually lose the game, because something as stupid as Zekrom EX (two simple energies for an okay attack and 180 HP) can just sweep a game
Next time you go to a prerelease, and pack an ex, just play the one ex card and 39 energies. you'll understand the terrible mechanic pokemon has made.

That's the thing about EXs, they are the least hurt by the absence of support. I would hardly consider a pre-release representative of anything.

Yet we have EXs like Magnezone EX that can have 3 Energies and can't sweep a thing. That's how it is, really. EXs aren't OP bu default, but some are OP thanks to design choices made in their conception, especially those that are good throughout the game like Landorus EX or Mewtwo EX. There were also other broken cards which also contributed to their brokenness such as DCE and for NXD format, pre-errata Catcher.

@bbninjas

To add to my previous argument, you also have to consider the effects of ruling on breaking EXs. If we take EXs into NXD on format with XY ruling, then they won't dominate nearly as much. They also had a good amount of support from, as Otaku mentioned, Catcher and DCE. All of these made them overwhelming as a whole.

Now if you were to take out DCE and Catcher, and implement XY Rulings into NXD format, would EXs dominate as much?
 
@bbninjas

To add to my previous argument, you also have to consider the effects of ruling on breaking EXs. If we take EXs into NXD on format with XY ruling, then they won't dominate nearly as much. They also had a good amount of support from, as Otaku mentioned, Catcher and DCE. All of these made them overwhelming as a whole.

Now if you were to take out DCE and Catcher, and implement XY Rulings into NXD format, would EXs dominate as much?
Yes, they will mostly like dominate. DCE exists in most formats so you can't take that away no matter what. I'm juts going to assume Catcher is a Supporter not an Item. Even then, the amount of damage that could be dished out is pretty overwhelming. In an XY format, EX's don't seem half bad because the whole format has been made around it.
 
Yes, they will mostly like dominate. DCE exists in most formats so you can't take that away no matter what. I'm juts going to assume Catcher is a Supporter not an Item. Even then, the amount of damage that could be dished out is pretty overwhelming. In an XY format, EX's don't seem half bad because the whole format has been made around it.

About DCE, not really. After its reprint in Base Set 2, DCE was absent from then on all the way to HGSS, making it absent for 3 whole Generations. In other words, it was out of Standard from 2001 all the way to 2010. Nearly a decade, or about half the age (more than that, if I calculated correctly) of the TCG, hardly most formats. To date, only 5 out of 15 formats had DCE in them, and for good reason too. It is in fact a source of single card +1 energy acceleration with no drawbacks at all, amd I can name no other card that does that. To no surprise, most of the more competitive cards in the format, like Mewtwo EX, Toad, M Ray, Raichu, Night March, Flareon, Donphan, Gengar, Trevenant etc. relied on it really heavily. It severely breaks pacing, from the very moment it entered the format when Garchomp C Lvl.X became able to attack for only a single Energy attachment and snipe out just about anything.

As for whether it would break the format, honestly it is hard to tell fully based on theory, but long story short, it is all about implementation.

Whenever a new mechanic is introduced, they tend to end up unstable for the most part because the newer mechanics could make use of support from prior sets just as if not more readily than the ones that have been there before, which is indeed the case for Pokemon-EX. Their older relatives, basic Pokemon-ex couldn't make much of a splash back then because they didn't get nearly as much support with so many following Trainer cards specifically going (excluding Pokemon ex), and were far too weak to justify their use. Pokemon EX had cards like Skyarrow Bridge, Dual Ball and Pokemon Collector effectively giving them much more support than they should be getting, since the game was attempting to transition from Basics being weak in general, to all fully evolved forms being able to stand side by side. They also had DCE, which Pokemon exs did not have, and attacks that were overly cheap (common among early EXs) combined with late game power.

XY on Basic EXs were much, much more stable than they are having either early or late, but never both. The only exceptions were Lucario EX, Florges EX, Yveltal EX, Manectric EX and Rayquaza EX, while everything else had little to no early presence.

Personally, if Basic EXs were called, mechanics-wise, 'Basic EX' instead of just 'Basic', they wouldn't be as overwhelming as well. They would improve the game from being either all about evolutions (pre-BW era) or all about basics (Base Set era) to something in between, but only if they had been implemented better. If HGSS hadn't went back to the 2x Weakness format, then there would have been another opportunity there as well, since you could have made Basic-Stage 1 - Stage 2s +10/20/30 respectively, and EXs x2 so they were more easily countered than their non-EX counterparts. This would have made, for starters, countering Pyroar into more than just splashing Beartic into any deck that ran DCE.

Regarding damage, the biggest problem Basic EXs had back in the NXD era was that they did too much damage too quickly, and had the opportunity to do said damage off the bat. If Mewtwo EX was instead Lugia EX and had to wait until turn two to hit Aero Ball due to no DCE, or Zekrom EX needed 3 Lightning Energies instead of Lightning + DCE, or Landorus EX couldn't attack first turn due to rulling changes, Pluspower wasn't around, nor Catcher, nor was weakness for non-EXs multiplicative, nor did cards that benefit Basics chose Basic EXs as valid targets... In order words, better implementation that aims to give Evolutions a little more time, then Basic EXs wouldn't have broken the format as hard as they did.
 
I can agree. To be honest, I'm ok if some of the lines are completely filler, as long as the ones that aren't filler get decent pre-Evos that are not filler as well. That way we can see some viable Stage 2s being played alongside Big Basics. Even if it means reusing old concepts (as if we don't get those already).



We weren't referring to how Crobat was played, given that Crobat was indeed designed as a Bench sitter. We were referring to how space efficient Crobat is in comparison to other Stage 2s, which led it to be played in large numbers in a good number of decks. This is thanks to it having a better 'foundation' than other Stage 2s with its pre-evolved forms being useful. It is this trait that we need to achieve when designing attacking Stage 2s, because they need to be able to be worth streaming in order to be used as an attacker.

So basically, how to do it right = Useful Stage 2 and/or Useful Stage 1 + Useful Basic.

Just to note, Flygon Rising Rivals does fit the bill of useful pre-evolutions, having innate Energy Acceleration from Trapinch and a pretty decent (albeit situational) attack of Vibrava. The Trapinch has a fair amount of synergy with Flygon's Ability, too.
Thank you for noting how useful Vibrava can be, it's won me a couple of games (especially against a couple of Garchomp C Lv.X's). Another example of how to do it right is Nidoqueen RR. Nidoran [F] MT had a decent attack for [C] which allowed you to get another Nidoran [F] out, but this was really only used in Nidoking/Nidoqueen decks which weren't very good, while Nidoran [F] RR actually had an attack for [C][C] that allowed you to get a supporter, which could then get you an Uxie or an Azelf to, say, get a Flygon Lv.X from your prizes allowing you to do well in the game. Nidorina MT has an attack for [C] which acts as a double Pokemon Rescue, which is always nice, maybe allowing you to get something like an Azelf Lv.X and a Gardevoir Lv.X back into your hand, or a Duskull and a Dusknoir allowing you to Rare Candy them to use Dusknoir's Power again, or letting you KO a Claydol w/ Regigigas' Sacrifice then getting the Claydol back without having to kill something that would lose you even MORE board potential. Nidorina RR seems like run of the mill junk, but is actually quite good. It has an attack for [C] which does 30 and 10 self-damage. This may not seem like much, but it really is just the perfect amount of damage. 30 damage from a [P] Pokemon with an Expert Belt attached is enough to kill an Uxie LA, and stop either a failed Uxie-Donk or an Uxie Lv.X from coming into play. It also has a second attack for [P][C][C] which does 40, and if Nidorina is damaged, it does 20 damage more+poison. This is actually enough to kill most SP Pokemon with an Expert Belt attached, which can be really useful. Finally, we've reached our Nidoqueen, one of the more ubiquitous bench-sitters of the DP-on format, featuring in everything from Donphan, Pl0X, and Gengar SF.

Another example would be Gardevoir SW, part of the infamous PL0X deck. There are several Ralts' featured in the HP-MD format, but only two were really good. There's one from EX Sandstorm which for [C] could put someone to sleep and for [P] could do 10 damage for every energy attached to the Defending Pokemon, which could actually do 100 damage, when Expert Belted, to a Gardevoir Lv.X with a Scramble Energy activated and attached. There was another from Secret Wonders, which, while seeming relatively not as great, it had a wonderful weakness of only [P]+10, as opposed to the other Ralts' weakness of [P]x2. This allowed it to, while Expert Belted, survive a Psychic Lock from Gardevoir or Gardevoir Lv.X, assuming neither are Belted. There was also a Kirlia from Secret Wonders which could almost use Gardevoir's wonderful Telepass ability for [P], except the Supporter came from your discard, not your opponents', which allows you a greater level of control of what you would use. It has 80 HP and a weakness of only [P]+20, meaning that, when Expert Belted, it could again survive a non Belted Psychic Lock from a Gardevoir or Gardevoir Lv.X.
 
(i haven't played competitively for super long, so the examples are recent)

EXs haven't broken the game; they've changed it. Every game will have things that change it, and EXs changed how Pokemon was played. But they didn't break it. Cards that break the game are cards that shouldn't be allowed to played; Yveltal-EX is amazing, but so was Hitmonchan from base set. LTC created a game unlike the one the creators wanted, thus it was banned. Same for Sneasel and Sloking. Some things just shouldn't be played. EXs changed make the game different, planning-wise and playing-wise, but should still be played.
For the argument that says that EXs make stage 2s unviable, they do. But have cards in the past made other stuff unviable? Yes. Sneasel made everything unviable but itself. Sloking made playing cards unviable.

Thanks for reading, feedback is welcome.

-Socery
 
(i haven't played competitively for super long, so the examples are recent)

EXs haven't broken the game; they've changed it. Every game will have things that change it, and EXs changed how Pokemon was played. But they didn't break it. Cards that break the game are cards that shouldn't be allowed to played; Yveltal-EX is amazing, but so was Hitmonchan from base set. LTC created a game unlike the one the creators wanted, thus it was banned. Same for Sneasel and Sloking. Some things just shouldn't be played. EXs changed make the game different, planning-wise and playing-wise, but should still be played.
For the argument that says that EXs make stage 2s unviable, they do. But have cards in the past made other stuff unviable? Yes. Sneasel made everything unviable but itself. Sloking made playing cards unviable.

Thanks for reading, feedback is welcome.

-Socery
So your argument is that EXs should be banned, just as Sneasel and Slowking were? I'm very confused.
 
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