What would be the best things for th B&W-On version to make it viable?
New Decks In B&W-On Format
- Thread starter Emopanda133
- Start date
Reading this thread hurt my brain. I don't even know exactly where to start...
First off, I wish that we had cards with more name synergy. Garchomp/Altaria and Darkrai/Hydreigon don't have much going for them in the name department, and that means that everybody and their mother are going to be taking a crack at naming these things, and they're all going to sound awful.
Secondly I'm going to list my Top Five, just to give me a jumping point from which I can speak:
1. Mewtwo EX/Terrakion EX/Garbodor
2. Darkrai EX/Hydreigon/Techs
3. Garchomp/Altaria
4. Zeels
5. Darkai EX
Then there are all of the other decks that deserve a mention of some sort:
- Empoleon Variants
- Accelgor Variants
- Rayquaza Variants
- Rogue Decks
At this point, testing means nothing. Without any established decklists to test against, all you can really do is say that you built a deck that is able to function. Sure you can test against what you believe will be the lists that you will eventually see, but nine times out of ten the metagame shifts after people start figuring out what actually works.
Of course that is a very cynical outlook. Without testing, nobody is going to find out what works and what doesn't work, and the lists that do define the format are never going to be built. However, this next set has given us so many potentially game altering cards that you cannot definitively count on much. Is Bouffalant going to deter completely EX-Centric decks, as it is able to 2HKO any EX while also being 2HKO'd by most EXs? Is Sigilyph going to cause people to stop being reliant on Mewtwo? Are people going to have to choose between Prism and Blend, as Drifblim players would punish anybody foolish enough to run both? Are half of these decks going to be useless anyways because of a well timed Garbodor? Can I run Garchomp knowing that the chances of decking myself against Aggron or Durant are too great to risk? These questions are going to be what really shapes the metagame, not whether Garchomp can set itself up quickly enough to KO Hydreigon before it sets up.
So while I can talk about a Darkrai/Hydreigon deck, you really can't spit out a list that reflects exactly what will be played just yet, nor can you accurately state whether one deck will defeat it or not until you wait to see what else is being played. Maybe I decided to play both Prism and Blend Energy, and therefore was able to tech Rayquaza to KO Gibles and Swablu early on in the game. Does that mean that your Garchomp deck is able to beat Darkrai/Hydreigon? No. Although now you are able to consider other options for your deck that may make that less of an issue. You could always stack a fistful of Emolga into your deck to help prevent early KOs and help set up, but do you lose some speed in the process? In the end there are just too many questions for a completely accurate answer.
So on to my Top Five. Terrakion EX is definitely a good card, but definitely not the great card that it is considered to be. Do you honestly think that you are going to be able to charge another Terrakion fully after just one attack? That is just ridiculous. You are going to play a maximum of fifteen energy, with a more reasonable amount being closer to thirteen, four or which will probably be some sort of special energy unless you decide to play a Quad-Terrakion deck. So you have nine fighting energy in your deck on average, and you are using two to three of those energy to charge your active Terrakion. So you have six fighting energy left in your deck, and chances are that you are going to be tossing a few of those out with Juniper. Now you are going to have a five to seven card hand, and you are assuming that you have three energy in there? No you won't. Terrakion EX still needs EXP Share to maintain itself, but with its attack you at least have some backup acceleration, so you can also play some Eviolite and cut back a bit on the EXP Share.
However Terrakion is going to be a dominant force with something. Mewtwo, Tornadus, Groudon, more Terrakion, there has to be something that will enjoy a fistful of energy from time to time. I personally like the thought of Mewtwo, mostly because it will be able to break through anything designed to counter Terrakion, except for Sigilyph that is. That is where Garbodor comes in. Garbodor is a severely underrated card. Sure people are afraid of losing their Eels, but not too many people have made mention of Darkrai losing its free retreat, or Garchomp losing its Gabite. Most Darkrai decks play lightly on the Switch, and have a number of attackers with 2+ retreat costs. Just activating your Garbodor and playing a Catcher can buy you a turn or two. In fact activating your Garbodor will do more than just a little damage to most decks. Garchomp will grind to a halt after you manage to KO their active Garchomp. Zeels will instantly stop. Hydreigon may as well scoop.
Most people will have some sort of cocky knee-jerk reaction to try and counter Garbodor, normally being either Catcher or Tool Scrapper. Well first, no deck has the space to play enough Tool Scrapper to be able to help instantly. Not to mention that most decks are going to be discarding a decent sum of cards between their attacks and their supporters. What are the chances that Tool Scrapper will get tossed out early in the game in order to set up? Decent. As for Catcher? Yeah its a problem, but they can't Catcher two Garbodor, nor will they be able to always KO it without the help of their abilities. If a player can time a Garbodor drop with a big KO or a couple well timed Hammers, you are guaranteed a turn or two of impunity. Although you are going to need to play a lot of Switch.
As for matchups, Terrakion slaps Darkrai around, Mewtwo handles opposing Mewtwo decently, and can normally win the Mewtwo war because of their numbers (I currently play four) Garchomp can't handle Garbodor, and Zeels can't handle Terrakion and Mewtwo both breathing down its neck.
Moving on to Hydreigon, everybody knows the basic strategy, just look at current-day Klinklang. I love the strategy (Klinklang was my deck of choice this format) and having Blend Energy grants a number of options tech wise. Shaymin EX, Sigilyph, and Bouffalant are the big three that most variants consider. Overall I feel that this deck is better than Garchomp just because of its flexibility bench-wise which will allow you to work in some counters. The deck is also somewhat Heavy Ball compatible which is good news. Although with Catcher it will be difficult to get out your Hydreigon.
As for the matchups against Zeels and Speed Darkrai, I am fairly confident that this deck can get a Darkrai out and swinging as quickly as these other decks can begin attacking (especially if you focus on Dark Patch) and even if you cannot begin attacking as quickly, as long as you can set up a Hydreigon, you should be able to Max Potion your worries away and coast your way to victory. If you play Sableye you will be able to recover your Max Potion and keep your EXs alive long enough to be able to get a fairly solid lead on your opponent. Neither deck has a conventional way to 1HKO you, so the real fears involve keeping your Hydreigon alive, and at 150 HP you don't really have to worry that much.
Then we have Garchomp, who is being hyped despite having no real tangible forms of great success. I still love the deck, and I love the synergy within the deck coupled with the room for teching, which inevitably provides enough room for some creativity. I am still toying with the idea of teching Empoleon into this deck, to provide yet another low energy high reward attacker. My only real issue with this deck comes with its performance during the first couple of turns. If you start with only one Gible, and fail to get another Gible on the bench, then you don't have any way to set up a T2 Garchomp while having a Gabite out as well, which is crucial to the deck. You need to be attacking and building in the second turn of the game in order to compete, and that is where you can run into issues.
A couple of other minor issues with the deck include Swablu's entire existance and those times when you have to bite the bullet and discard the top two cards of your deck to grab a KO, which can tear out a piece of this decks delicate puzzle. If you are unlucky and you have to discard a Gible or Garchomp then you are out an attacker until you can get to your recovery, which also has the chance of being discarded. All of these little issues are why I put Hydreigon above Garchomp overall. Yet this does not stop Garchomp's performance much, which normally includes it busting through an opposing deck in a whir of consistency and high damage output.
Now I'm just going to spew off some of my rogue ideas for this next set:
Ninetales + Amoongus: you effectively have eight Catcher in this deck, and all of your attackers only need a single energy card. You also swing for 130 damage a turn if you can keep the Amoongus coming, which isn't impossible with Super Scoop Up. Basically this deck is cheap enough for newer players to actually do well, and it can really troll slower decks, and anything that doesn't have consistent retreating methods.
Shedinja Swarm: I haven't really put much thought into this deck, but between Rescue Scarf and other types of recovery the only way your opponents will every be able to take prizes is by Catchering your Nincada. Although Darkrai can also KO two Shedinja often enough to probably destory this completely, and you can't really do much with just 30 damage a turn.
Walrein + Vanilluxe: A spin-off of the Vanilluxe/Kyurem deck that existed awhile back, this deck (once set up) will guarantee paralyzation every turn. The only problem is setting up three stage twos and getting four energy onto two of them...
Rayquaza + Emboar: Reminiscant of MagneBoar, you can drop a huge amount of damage with these two, only now you have the ability to recycle the energy, at the cost of the drawpower that Magnezone provided.
Aggron: Deck them out, with 4 Aggron, 4 Devolution Spray, and Sableye you can deck your opponent out with more speed than Durant, although it is admittedly more difficult.
Accelgor: With one Accelgor, one Gothitelle + Dark Energy, one Darkrai, and one Mew + DCE you can paralyze and lock, and then all you have to do is get your hands back on the Mew and DCE to repeat.
...And that is about everything that I can think of...
Drifblim For President ~ 2014
[/sand=DawnOfXatu] ~ Vulpix Yolk
First off, I wish that we had cards with more name synergy. Garchomp/Altaria and Darkrai/Hydreigon don't have much going for them in the name department, and that means that everybody and their mother are going to be taking a crack at naming these things, and they're all going to sound awful.
Secondly I'm going to list my Top Five, just to give me a jumping point from which I can speak:
1. Mewtwo EX/Terrakion EX/Garbodor
2. Darkrai EX/Hydreigon/Techs
3. Garchomp/Altaria
4. Zeels
5. Darkai EX
Then there are all of the other decks that deserve a mention of some sort:
- Empoleon Variants
- Accelgor Variants
- Rayquaza Variants
- Rogue Decks
At this point, testing means nothing. Without any established decklists to test against, all you can really do is say that you built a deck that is able to function. Sure you can test against what you believe will be the lists that you will eventually see, but nine times out of ten the metagame shifts after people start figuring out what actually works.
Of course that is a very cynical outlook. Without testing, nobody is going to find out what works and what doesn't work, and the lists that do define the format are never going to be built. However, this next set has given us so many potentially game altering cards that you cannot definitively count on much. Is Bouffalant going to deter completely EX-Centric decks, as it is able to 2HKO any EX while also being 2HKO'd by most EXs? Is Sigilyph going to cause people to stop being reliant on Mewtwo? Are people going to have to choose between Prism and Blend, as Drifblim players would punish anybody foolish enough to run both? Are half of these decks going to be useless anyways because of a well timed Garbodor? Can I run Garchomp knowing that the chances of decking myself against Aggron or Durant are too great to risk? These questions are going to be what really shapes the metagame, not whether Garchomp can set itself up quickly enough to KO Hydreigon before it sets up.
So while I can talk about a Darkrai/Hydreigon deck, you really can't spit out a list that reflects exactly what will be played just yet, nor can you accurately state whether one deck will defeat it or not until you wait to see what else is being played. Maybe I decided to play both Prism and Blend Energy, and therefore was able to tech Rayquaza to KO Gibles and Swablu early on in the game. Does that mean that your Garchomp deck is able to beat Darkrai/Hydreigon? No. Although now you are able to consider other options for your deck that may make that less of an issue. You could always stack a fistful of Emolga into your deck to help prevent early KOs and help set up, but do you lose some speed in the process? In the end there are just too many questions for a completely accurate answer.
So on to my Top Five. Terrakion EX is definitely a good card, but definitely not the great card that it is considered to be. Do you honestly think that you are going to be able to charge another Terrakion fully after just one attack? That is just ridiculous. You are going to play a maximum of fifteen energy, with a more reasonable amount being closer to thirteen, four or which will probably be some sort of special energy unless you decide to play a Quad-Terrakion deck. So you have nine fighting energy in your deck on average, and you are using two to three of those energy to charge your active Terrakion. So you have six fighting energy left in your deck, and chances are that you are going to be tossing a few of those out with Juniper. Now you are going to have a five to seven card hand, and you are assuming that you have three energy in there? No you won't. Terrakion EX still needs EXP Share to maintain itself, but with its attack you at least have some backup acceleration, so you can also play some Eviolite and cut back a bit on the EXP Share.
However Terrakion is going to be a dominant force with something. Mewtwo, Tornadus, Groudon, more Terrakion, there has to be something that will enjoy a fistful of energy from time to time. I personally like the thought of Mewtwo, mostly because it will be able to break through anything designed to counter Terrakion, except for Sigilyph that is. That is where Garbodor comes in. Garbodor is a severely underrated card. Sure people are afraid of losing their Eels, but not too many people have made mention of Darkrai losing its free retreat, or Garchomp losing its Gabite. Most Darkrai decks play lightly on the Switch, and have a number of attackers with 2+ retreat costs. Just activating your Garbodor and playing a Catcher can buy you a turn or two. In fact activating your Garbodor will do more than just a little damage to most decks. Garchomp will grind to a halt after you manage to KO their active Garchomp. Zeels will instantly stop. Hydreigon may as well scoop.
Most people will have some sort of cocky knee-jerk reaction to try and counter Garbodor, normally being either Catcher or Tool Scrapper. Well first, no deck has the space to play enough Tool Scrapper to be able to help instantly. Not to mention that most decks are going to be discarding a decent sum of cards between their attacks and their supporters. What are the chances that Tool Scrapper will get tossed out early in the game in order to set up? Decent. As for Catcher? Yeah its a problem, but they can't Catcher two Garbodor, nor will they be able to always KO it without the help of their abilities. If a player can time a Garbodor drop with a big KO or a couple well timed Hammers, you are guaranteed a turn or two of impunity. Although you are going to need to play a lot of Switch.
As for matchups, Terrakion slaps Darkrai around, Mewtwo handles opposing Mewtwo decently, and can normally win the Mewtwo war because of their numbers (I currently play four) Garchomp can't handle Garbodor, and Zeels can't handle Terrakion and Mewtwo both breathing down its neck.
The Garbage Man said:
Moving on to Hydreigon, everybody knows the basic strategy, just look at current-day Klinklang. I love the strategy (Klinklang was my deck of choice this format) and having Blend Energy grants a number of options tech wise. Shaymin EX, Sigilyph, and Bouffalant are the big three that most variants consider. Overall I feel that this deck is better than Garchomp just because of its flexibility bench-wise which will allow you to work in some counters. The deck is also somewhat Heavy Ball compatible which is good news. Although with Catcher it will be difficult to get out your Hydreigon.
As for the matchups against Zeels and Speed Darkrai, I am fairly confident that this deck can get a Darkrai out and swinging as quickly as these other decks can begin attacking (especially if you focus on Dark Patch) and even if you cannot begin attacking as quickly, as long as you can set up a Hydreigon, you should be able to Max Potion your worries away and coast your way to victory. If you play Sableye you will be able to recover your Max Potion and keep your EXs alive long enough to be able to get a fairly solid lead on your opponent. Neither deck has a conventional way to 1HKO you, so the real fears involve keeping your Hydreigon alive, and at 150 HP you don't really have to worry that much.
Hercules and the Hydra said:
Then we have Garchomp, who is being hyped despite having no real tangible forms of great success. I still love the deck, and I love the synergy within the deck coupled with the room for teching, which inevitably provides enough room for some creativity. I am still toying with the idea of teching Empoleon into this deck, to provide yet another low energy high reward attacker. My only real issue with this deck comes with its performance during the first couple of turns. If you start with only one Gible, and fail to get another Gible on the bench, then you don't have any way to set up a T2 Garchomp while having a Gabite out as well, which is crucial to the deck. You need to be attacking and building in the second turn of the game in order to compete, and that is where you can run into issues.
A couple of other minor issues with the deck include Swablu's entire existance and those times when you have to bite the bullet and discard the top two cards of your deck to grab a KO, which can tear out a piece of this decks delicate puzzle. If you are unlucky and you have to discard a Gible or Garchomp then you are out an attacker until you can get to your recovery, which also has the chance of being discarded. All of these little issues are why I put Hydreigon above Garchomp overall. Yet this does not stop Garchomp's performance much, which normally includes it busting through an opposing deck in a whir of consistency and high damage output.
Dragon Ball Z said:
Now I'm just going to spew off some of my rogue ideas for this next set:
Ninetales + Amoongus: you effectively have eight Catcher in this deck, and all of your attackers only need a single energy card. You also swing for 130 damage a turn if you can keep the Amoongus coming, which isn't impossible with Super Scoop Up. Basically this deck is cheap enough for newer players to actually do well, and it can really troll slower decks, and anything that doesn't have consistent retreating methods.
Shedinja Swarm: I haven't really put much thought into this deck, but between Rescue Scarf and other types of recovery the only way your opponents will every be able to take prizes is by Catchering your Nincada. Although Darkrai can also KO two Shedinja often enough to probably destory this completely, and you can't really do much with just 30 damage a turn.
Walrein + Vanilluxe: A spin-off of the Vanilluxe/Kyurem deck that existed awhile back, this deck (once set up) will guarantee paralyzation every turn. The only problem is setting up three stage twos and getting four energy onto two of them...
Rayquaza + Emboar: Reminiscant of MagneBoar, you can drop a huge amount of damage with these two, only now you have the ability to recycle the energy, at the cost of the drawpower that Magnezone provided.
Aggron: Deck them out, with 4 Aggron, 4 Devolution Spray, and Sableye you can deck your opponent out with more speed than Durant, although it is admittedly more difficult.
Accelgor: With one Accelgor, one Gothitelle + Dark Energy, one Darkrai, and one Mew + DCE you can paralyze and lock, and then all you have to do is get your hands back on the Mew and DCE to repeat.
...And that is about everything that I can think of...
Drifblim For President ~ 2014
[/sand=DawnOfXatu] ~ Vulpix Yolk
Now that we have almost no supporters and rely a ton on items, don't count out Zebstrika and Gothitelle. I see both easily being T1-1.5, especially since Zebstrika is so easily inserted into Eelbox and Gothitelle/Gardevoir being more playable without Collector for Mewtwo to counter it
DawnOfXatu said:
I like the Nine-tails deck, it's like the Leafon deck of today's format.
Shedinja is a very, very good card, a Pokemon that can be KO'd without prize loss is great, that being said, I like to pair him up with another Psychic Pokemon, Golurk. Once you place those three damage counters down, A LOT open up for Golurk. 2 on Garchomp and 1 on a benched Garchomp, next turn, if Shedinja get's KO'd (If not, place 2 Damage on an undamaged Garchomp and 1 on the 1-damaged Garchomp) bring up Golurk and use Expert Punch to De-Evolve the Garchomp and KO the Gabite. With Hydreigon, place all three on Hydreigon and De-Evolve, KOing the Zweilos. This works great with Exp. Share for Energy Acceleration, and/or use Gardevior, making it easier to use Golurk's second attack to 2HKO any EX and not be OHKO'd by Darkrai.
The problem with Walrein/Vanilluxe is energy, you need a lot to get two Walrein set up, plus Switch kills this deck.
Aggron/Durant will be good simply because Lairon discards, Durant discard, Evolve Lairon to Aggron, dicard, De-Evolution Spray, Discard with Lairon. If you need to KO a EX, use Aggron's attack. The thing about this deck is, you don't need Rare Candy, because the Stage 1 is very important.
RayBoar will be good if you can keep the Energy flowing.
My problem with Accelgor, it while the theory is good, I don't like having to rely on Getting Mew EX and a DCE with little draw power, yes Musharna works, but unless you can take all your prizes before your Ball Engine runs out, you're pretty much screwed.
Drifblim/Hammers FTW I love this idea. with so many different special energies around, if you discard two, you're doing 100 for 1 Energy, and that's easy to do with the Hammers. If Darkrai shows up, Terrakion can deal with him. This deck is the one that has me excited.
Emopanda133 said:
I should also add that everyone thought CMT was only gonna get better after DE, well, everyone knows it dropped down to Tier 2.
Emopanda133 said:
Now what do you do when you play against someone that plays a Mewtwo or Rayquza EX? It's not really a good theory deck because it just gets OHKOed. You also can't recover after it dies.
A lot of people played it, a lot, but it died down a lot after DE.
I think it's 1.5. It isn't as good as ZekeelsTerrakion or Darkrai, but it is close behind. Maybe tier 1.25 or something like that.
My list is:
1. darkrai/hydreigon
2. garchomp/altaria
3. terrakion ex variants
4. zekeels variants
5. darkrai/sablye/hammers
Also, I saw an interesting deck that is also viable. It is ho-oh ex/tornadus ex. I tried it out and it is a really fun deck.
1. darkrai/hydreigon
2. garchomp/altaria
3. terrakion ex variants
4. zekeels variants
5. darkrai/sablye/hammers
Cinema said:
Also, I saw an interesting deck that is also viable. It is ho-oh ex/tornadus ex. I tried it out and it is a really fun deck.
9Tailz said:
I haven't found the list that the Japanese player used, but i think the strategy is to start with tornadus ex and use juniper to discard a ho-oh and some energy. Then you use ho-oh's ability. If you flip heads, you get up to three energy on the ho-oh T1. You then attach to ho-oh and use skyarrow to retreat tornadus ex for free. Tornadus ex is in there because if you know you can't get the donk, start attacking tornadus ex and discard some energy with power blast. Then discard a ho-oh using juniper and use it's ability. It is a very fun deck, but it is still tier 2. It is somewhat viable in my opinion.
Plus if you start with just Ho-oh, you're kinda screwed unless you draw into another Pokemon quickly, I can see it working with Beautifly and Exp. Share maybe?
ZekEels, even if it might not be the best deck possible, it will be very popular. It's incredibly easy to make the change from HGSS-On to BW-On. My personal list will change only 11 cards. Also, Raikou EX with Max Potion will be a nice combo and will make up for the lack of Junk Arm for Catcher.
The problem with Eels is that it won't have the early power like it used to because of how long it will take to get out Pokemon now.:/
Yeah, I guess so, it really just depends on their setup as well.