New Player Looking for an Empoleon Explanation

I

IPokeYou

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I'm very new to the game. My daughters got me interested about 2 weeks ago and it's very intriguing. Before spending lots of money, I've been looking at deck lists and trying to figure out how they work and which cards are the best. The Mega Manectric deck listed on pokemon.com's 2015 Worlds Pokemon Preview Decklist has me scratching my head. All of the Pokemon make sense except for Empoleon as it is a Stage 2 and there are no Basic or Stage 1 cards to evolve it, so how does it get into play? The decklist is as follows:

4 M Manectric-EX 24/119
4 Manectric-EX 23/119
2 Garbodor 68/113
2 Trubbish 67/113
1 Empoleon 117/116
1 Jirachi-EX 60/101
1 Keldeo-EX 45/113
4 N
4 Professor Sycamore
2 Colress
2 Lysandre
1 Archie's Ace in the Hole
1 Pokémon Center Lady
4 Manectric Spirit Link
4 Ultra Ball
4 VS Seeker
3 Rough Seas
2 Battle Compressor Team Flare Gear
2 Float Stone
1 Computer Search
4 Lightning Energy
4 Water Energy

Link is here http://www.pokemon.com/us/play-pokemon/worlds/2015/decks/preview-decks/

Thank you for your help and I look forward to learning more and maybe even contributing someday.
 
Archie's Ace In the Hole can be used to pull any water type pokemon (except for a BREAK) out of the discard pile, and put it directly onto the bench, without having to go through the stages of evolution. Basic, Stage 1, Stage 2, and Mega Pokemon EX can all be brought into play this way. This deck would leverage Battle Compressor or Ultra Ball to discard the Empoleon to the discard pile, then work itself into a position where Archie's was the last card in hand. Then, voila! Out comes an Empoleon.
 
Thank you for that explanation. I have a follow up. Archie's Ace in the Hole seems like it would be a rare situation to play, at least to me (someone who hasn't played more than a handful of games with only theme decks). Does that situation come up enough to justify holding those 2 cards in your deck? Is it more of a sure thing to have the 2 that evolve into Empoleon? Or maybe 3 cards of the Basic, Empoleon and a Evosoda? Empoleon seems like a cool card if you can get it into play.
 
It can certainly be a bit tricky to play. You have to whittle your hand down to just that card by playing stuff/burning cards with Ultra Ball. Additionally, you have to get the Empoleon into your discard, again through discarding with Ultra Ball, Sycamore, Battle Compressor, or something similar. I can't say as I've ever had all that much luck getting an Archie's Engine (what this type of system is often referred to) to work, but the same type of play is used in Yveltal/Zoroark/Gallade decks, to get the fighting type Gallade out onto the field without having to have Ralts/Kirlia taking up space in the deck.

It's definitely not a beginner strategy, but it can certainly be effective when you practice with it, and know how to make it work. A stage 2 pokemon being on the field on turn 2 is certainly not unheard of.
 
I am going to expand a bit on what @Frosstoise said. As he already pointed out, it is an advanced tactic. I don't want to try and explain Calculus to someone still learning basic arithmetic. ;)

Except there isn't a way to explain it without getting in depth and more than a little complicated. So I'll put it behind spoiler tags to break it up a little.

IPokeYou said:
Does that situation come up enough to justify holding those 2 cards in your deck?
Click to expand...

To begin with, two cards is not actually as much as it seems. Deck space is precious, but this isn't a "must achieve T1 every game!" strategy.

There have been some decks that do rely on this approach for something central to the deck's strategy, and they tend to run two Archie's Ace in the Hole (or Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick if it is a Fighting Pokémon), two of the target Evolution, and rely on a combination of Acro Bike, Battle Compressor, Shaymin-EX (XY: Roaring Skies 77/108, 106/108), Trainer's Mail, Ultra Ball, and VS Seeker. I don't remember off the top of my head, but while some of what I just listed may be missing because it wasn't available when the above deck list was built, it also is because Empoleon isn't a vital part of this deck; incredibly useful but if Empoleon never shows up, you just lose a convenient way to discard spare basic Energy for M Manectric-EX to attach from the discard pile, as well as some bonus draw power and a Water based attacker.

Recapping, Battle Compressor you can toss not only the Evolution cards into your discard pile, but also Archie's Ace in the Hole. Why would you do that when you want to use it? Most decks are running three or four VS Seeker, so this essentially allows Battle Compressor to double as Supporter search. Archie's Ace in the Hole is dead in hand if you have any other Supporter, so it is safer to use VS Seeker to claim it once VS Seeker is your last card in hand. Any other Supporter means you'll have to use that one instead and try next turn. You'll be at the mercy of your next draw... and that assumes your previous Supporter didn't discard or shuffle away Archie's Ace in the Hole, or your opponent doesn't mess with your hand on his or her turn.

Ultra Ball can help by discarding the Evolution or spare Archie's Ace in the Hole that end up in your hand. Shaymin-EX comes in because it allows you to draw until you have six cards in hand when you Bench it; this sounds counterproductive but the idea is that you use it when you know you aren't going to get down to just Archie's Ace in the Hole or VS Seeker with your current hand. Acro Bike allows you to look at the top two cards of your deck and add one to hand (the other is discarded). Trainers' Mail allows you to look at the top four cards of your deck and add a Trainer (other than another Trainers' Mail) to your hand. The former is yet another way to get stuff into the hand and discard pile, while the latter improves your odds of hitting the Trainer cards that you need. While you are not allowed to play a card for "no effect" in Pokémon, you are allowed to play them for minimal or less than their full effect. You have to take one of the two cards with Acro Bike, but you are allowed to "fail" searches so long as they aren't for any card. So Ultra Ball (which only grabs Pokémon) and Trainers' Mail (which only grabs Trainers) can be used up without adding more cards to hand if you just need to be rid of them to set up for Archie's Ace in the Hole.

Now, there is one more easy thing to remember about this; all of it is happening while you're building up your side of the field, regardless of whether or not you successfully pull of Archie's Ace in the Hole. Again, for a deck using one target Evolution and one Archie's Ace in the Hole, it is not essential to the deck. If you fail to get Empoleon into play but have your Manectric-EX or M Manectric-EX and other stuff already to go, that is still good!

IPokeYou said:
Is it more of a sure thing to have the 2 that evolve into Empoleon? Or maybe 3 cards of the Basic, Empoleon and a Evosoda?
Click to expand...

Some decks do attempt both, but the additional cards make it more difficult to pull off Archie's Ace in the Hole (or Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick).

The Basics aren't so bad as they simply take up Bench space; against certain strategies they can be more of a liability, but in general they are just there. The Stage 1 for the card needs a Basic ready to Evolve to hit the field, and Evolving will take three total turns:

Basic on the first turn.
Stage 1 on the second turn.
Stage 2 on the third turn.

So you reduce the odds of Archie's Ace in the Hole working and you're not any faster. Rare Candy allows you to go from Basic to Stage 2 directly, but the Basic still must be capable of Evolving that turn (so no one turn Empoleon this way). Evosoda doesn't allow you to skip the wait either; it won't work on a Pokémon that just hit the field (and thus could not manually Evolve this turn anyway). There is a Supporter called Wally that is similar to Evosoda only Wally does work on the first turn a Pokémon is in play (even the first turn of the game) but not only is it a Supporter instead of an Item, you still need to wait two turns to pull the trick off. Either

Basic on the first turn.
Wally into Stage 1 on the first turn.
Manually Evolve into Stage 2 on the second turn

or

Basic on the first turn.
Manually Evolve into Stage 1 on the second turn.
Wally into Stage 2.
 
After reading @Otaku 's explanation for 5 minutes, I completely agree with every single word he has wrote as well as (once again calculus in Pokémon TCG):

If you are certain the Archie's Ace in the Hole or Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick is in your deck, and you have a card from the set Plasma Blast named Jirachi EX in the deck as well, you can use the discarding tactics listed by Otaku, and use one Ultra Ball to get Jirachi EX from your deck, put it on your bench to activate its ability, and grab that Maxie or Archie. How I know this is efficient. Won many leagues, a city, and got a high placement at a Regionals ( think 24 out of 70-80 people) with a deck in which I used this tactic.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top