Lusamine gives me infinite Sky Pillars
Discussion New Tier List After Cosmic Eclipse
- Thread starter Kenatta_tcg
- Start date
Question:
I do not know how good Malamar decks currently are or are not, nor do I know much about Doll Stall...
...but even with "infinite" Sky Pillars, what matters is it being discarded the turn your opponent can smack your Bench, and/or that damage accumulating until it mattered. Neither Mew nor Sky Pillar protect from Abilities, right?
Please correct me on the doll stall/pidgeotto control vs Malamar matchup....
Couldn't Malamar just continually KO their own Giratina till the opponent is on their three prize turn for the new Baby Blacephelon to come and start spreading 12 damage counters. Is there any tech other than Sky Pillar, which isn't %100 reliable, to stop this strategy?
Towards ADP being tier 1. At the moment, I would say tier 1.5. It is proving to be a huge threat in the metagame but I also believe we haven't adjusted to it yet. It's mostly carried out by KeldeoSwell combo. I see some people on the PTCGO ladder teching in Faba+ Power plant just to deal with this combo, but even that hasn't proven to be a reliable option. I've been having a ton of fun playing with it and I strongly want to put it at a tier 1 deck. But I also recognize the PTCGO ladder is going through a "new toy" phase. So once the metagame has adjusted we shall see.
Lastly, if you aren't putting that steel tech into your ADP list you're just setting yourself up for failure against Gardeon
KeldeoSwell can only get you so far in that matchup
Couldn't Malamar just continually KO their own Giratina till the opponent is on their three prize turn for the new Baby Blacephelon to come and start spreading 12 damage counters. Is there any tech other than Sky Pillar, which isn't %100 reliable, to stop this strategy?
Towards ADP being tier 1. At the moment, I would say tier 1.5. It is proving to be a huge threat in the metagame but I also believe we haven't adjusted to it yet. It's mostly carried out by KeldeoSwell combo. I see some people on the PTCGO ladder teching in Faba+ Power plant just to deal with this combo, but even that hasn't proven to be a reliable option. I've been having a ton of fun playing with it and I strongly want to put it at a tier 1 deck. But I also recognize the PTCGO ladder is going through a "new toy" phase. So once the metagame has adjusted we shall see.
Lastly, if you aren't putting that steel tech into your ADP list you're just setting yourself up for failure against Gardeon
KeldeoSwell can only get you so far in that matchupPlease correct me on the doll stall/pidgeotto control vs Malamar matchup....
Couldn't Malamar just continually KO their own Giratina till the opponent is on their three prize turn for the new Baby Blacephelon to come and start spreading 12 damage counters. Is there any tech other than Sky Pillar, which isn't %100 reliable, to stop this strategy?
Towards ADP being tier 1. At the moment, I would say tier 1.5. It is proving to be a huge threat in the metagame but I also believe we haven't adjusted to it yet. It's mostly carried out by KeldeoSwell combo. I see some people on the PTCGO ladder teching in Faba+ Power plant just to deal with this combo, but even that hasn't proven to be a reliable option. I've been having a ton of fun playing with it and I strongly want to put it at a tier 1 deck. But I also recognize the PTCGO ladder is going through a "new toy" phase. So once the metagame has adjusted we shall see.
Lastly, if you aren't putting that steel tech into your ADP list you're just setting yourself up for failure against Gardeon
Totally agree on the Malamar gameplan against Sky Pillar with doll/stall and ADP adjustments. I think a lot of people are still trying to also find an ADP list that works really well. I have seen some very different lists. Most of the power in that deck for sure is chaotic swell keldeo, and having tested I think the Melmetal is the better tech option. Drampa isn't bad, and is great against the mirror, but you either can't search it or you have to add pokecoms in which eats up space.
Why do you think Pikarom is still Tier 1.5? This is one of my favorite decks, but recently people are avoiding it, do you think SM12 gave it more tools to rise?
Thanks!
Why do you think Pikarom is still Tier 1.5? This is one of my favorite decks, but recently people are avoiding it, do you think SM12 gave it more tools to rise?
Thanks!
That was just an initial thought. After testing it a little I don't think it is that high. It is more like Tier 2. Bad Mewbox/ADP/Gardeon matchups and stall isn't great. I hate to say it as this has been my favorite deck since it came out, but I think Pikarom is dead.
Interesting that Tord put out his Tier list for anyone who didn't see it. It's not too far off of what we have been working on. I'm listing it below:
S Tier
Pidgey
Mewbox
Arceus & Dialga & Palkia/Keldeo
Tier 1
Ability Zard
Pikarom
Blacephalon GX
Gardeon
Tier 2
Braxien Zard
Quag Nag
Doll Stall
Baby Blacephalon
Tier 3
Dark Box
Malamar/Giratina
Reshirom
LMAO Tier
Beheeyem
Dusknoir
Volcarona/Silvally
S Tier
Pidgey
Mewbox
Arceus & Dialga & Palkia/Keldeo
Tier 1
Ability Zard
Pikarom
Blacephalon GX
Gardeon
Tier 2
Braxien Zard
Quag Nag
Doll Stall
Baby Blacephalon
Tier 3
Dark Box
Malamar/Giratina
Reshirom
LMAO Tier
Beheeyem
Dusknoir
Volcarona/Silvally
I think that ADP and Keldeo is insane, has good match up against lots of probably top deck. Problems with gardeon, but choise helmet could be a good tech against them. Anyone has a deck list that actually goes well? I've tryed many online, the teck is strong but with the actual list still need something
For tord ability zard is tier 1. I've played ability since yesterday before cosmic eclipse,but the new list of ability is still not good for me. Maybe he will release some nice new deck list for ability
With that Tier List, fossils could make a come back, although I’m not sure about it’s game plan vs Pidgeotto
I'm going to risk being obnoxious again, but please understand it is not just about catering to my whims, but to improve comprehension of the data. Oh, and a good deal of it stems not from me having done it right for many, many years... but because I've been an idiot about it but thankfully have also started to learn from my mistakes.
Let's talk about presentation. Some (maybe all) of this can be seen as nitpicking, so if you don't want to deal with it, feel free to skip it.
Let's talk about presentation. Some (maybe all) of this can be seen as nitpicking, so if you don't want to deal with it, feel free to skip it.
There are two factors about competitive decks that should interest most:
Next, can we stick to a more unified naming/labeling scheme?
I'm a video game nerd with at least a superficial appreciation of Japan; I'm totally fine using the S/A/B/C/D/E/F grading system, or something similar. I'm also comfortable using numbers, where 0 (zero) or 1 (one) is the best. What I think is unnecessary (at best) and confusing (at worst) is mixing them.
Half-ranks do more harm than good.
I used to think decimals were our friends, allowing us to be much more specific about how good a deck or card actually was, but then I realized such a level of minute detail - which was usually wrong, anyway - was unnecessary even when correct. XP Either accept that a deck can be the new "best deck" or "worst" deck of an existing Tier, or that you accidentally skipped a Tier when making the previous ratings (probably because it was previously an empty Tier). Which brings us to...
You can have an empty Tier.
Well, not if everything is supposed to be totally relative, but if there are at least some objective standards, you can have gaps!
Putting it all together it might be nice to have only one of Tier, Rank, Grade, Level, etc. refer to competitive strength while another covers how often we're actually seeing such decks run. And I do mean "run" and not "win": you never know who you'll face those first few rounds. Given that "Grade" is already used for card quality and "Level" for video game and (depending on the era) TCG mechanics, "Rank" and "Tier" sound good to me. If I missed that one or both of these already have another meaning, I'm sure we can find something that works.
Mean, I'd probably use letters with Ranks and whole numbers with Tiers. I don't think we've ever had a diverse enough metagame where half-Tiers or +/- grades are necessary. I would recommend trying to hammer out a unified notion of what each Rank/Tier really means, because we've all been annoyed a deck we love or hate placed where we didn't want it to place... but then had to admit it was our emotions and not the deck's qualifications causing the disagreement.
- How likely a deck is to win
- How often it is played
Next, can we stick to a more unified naming/labeling scheme?
I'm a video game nerd with at least a superficial appreciation of Japan; I'm totally fine using the S/A/B/C/D/E/F grading system, or something similar. I'm also comfortable using numbers, where 0 (zero) or 1 (one) is the best. What I think is unnecessary (at best) and confusing (at worst) is mixing them.
Half-ranks do more harm than good.
I used to think decimals were our friends, allowing us to be much more specific about how good a deck or card actually was, but then I realized such a level of minute detail - which was usually wrong, anyway - was unnecessary even when correct. XP Either accept that a deck can be the new "best deck" or "worst" deck of an existing Tier, or that you accidentally skipped a Tier when making the previous ratings (probably because it was previously an empty Tier). Which brings us to...
You can have an empty Tier.
Well, not if everything is supposed to be totally relative, but if there are at least some objective standards, you can have gaps!
Putting it all together it might be nice to have only one of Tier, Rank, Grade, Level, etc. refer to competitive strength while another covers how often we're actually seeing such decks run. And I do mean "run" and not "win": you never know who you'll face those first few rounds. Given that "Grade" is already used for card quality and "Level" for video game and (depending on the era) TCG mechanics, "Rank" and "Tier" sound good to me. If I missed that one or both of these already have another meaning, I'm sure we can find something that works.
Mean, I'd probably use letters with Ranks and whole numbers with Tiers. I don't think we've ever had a diverse enough metagame where half-Tiers or +/- grades are necessary. I would recommend trying to hammer out a unified notion of what each Rank/Tier really means, because we've all been annoyed a deck we love or hate placed where we didn't want it to place... but then had to admit it was our emotions and not the deck's qualifications causing the disagreement.
Top 8 on LAiC, yesterday:
2 Mewtwo & Mew Tag Team
2 ADP
1 Reshizard
1 Doll Stall
1 Blacephalon GX
1 Naganadel & Guzzlord GX
Finals were Reshizard Abilities Turbo vs Mewtwo & Mew.
2 Mewtwo & Mew Tag Team
2 ADP
1 Reshizard
1 Doll Stall
1 Blacephalon GX
1 Naganadel & Guzzlord GX
Finals were Reshizard Abilities Turbo vs Mewtwo & Mew.
Did the Doll Stall run Sawsbuck?
no, just played the one rainbow w/ latios gx & spiritomb as attackers
anyway, here's my tier list (unordered within tiers):
tier 1:
adp
turbo (ability) zard
m3w
pidgeotto/oranguru
tier 1.5:
doll stall
guzznaga
gardeon
blowns
greenzard
tier 2:
malamar/trevnoir
quagsire/silvally
blacephalon/pidgeotto
reshirom
Ha ha, no. That doll stall deck was insane. I think they said he had 32 pokemon in it and 28 of them were one of. Not sure anyone can make much out of that list other than the guy who played it. Big brain deck. I watched it on stream and it was nuts. He was pulling weird random pokemon out of everywhere.
I agree Reshizard ability is strong, but I'm not sure if it was the deck that was strong, the player, or both. I'm inclined to believe that ability zard is either low tier 1 or tier 1.5. If you look at the results no one else playing ability zard did well, which leads me to believe that Robin made it better that it actually is.
Would Guzzlord-Naganadel be on this list or is it just too memey?