Discussion Night March VS. Vespiquen

FrostBiter12

FrostBiter12

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I was just wondering (due to my experience mainly being in Standard) which is better, Night March or Vespiquen?

From what I have gathered, Night March is destroyed by Oriocorio due low HP with a little resistance to Karen while Vespiquen has a balanced resistance to both Oriocorio and Karen. Night March is faster and easier to set up and sustain then Vespiquen due to basics with a big early damage output while Vespiquen takes time to set up and sustain. (Keep in mind, I haven't played much in the Expanded format though I have played a little Night March)

Let me know what you think and if you have any advice for partners (Marshadow GX, Zoroark GX, etc.).

Thanks!
 
I just realized that Zoroark GX for both of the decks might need to be put in due to Trevanant (Dark weakness) being one of the only decks to crush Vespiquen and Night March. Not to mention Trade discarding Pokémon (and Night Marchers) to draw cards (somewhat obvious).

Just a thought.
 
I personally think Night March is much better. It's damage ramps up so much faster than Vespiquen's to the point where it's possible to hit a Turn 1 KO on most things. Oricorio isn't really played all that much so I think it shouldn't hold you back from playing either of these decks. I haven't gotten much of a chance to try out Zoroark-GX yet in either of these builds, however. I'm a little bit of a purist when it comes to Night March especially so I feel like I, personally, feel more comfortable with a more streamlined, all-basic Pokemon build. To beat Trev, try adding a Tauros-GX to your Night March and Vespiquen lists. It fits in super easily.

Hope this helps,
LoneWolf2113
 
I agree that Night March is the better deck. It simply takes better advantage of the Trainer cards that keep it ticking, and it even does more damage. Plus, Oricorio can actually spell as much trouble for Bees as it can Night March. Some would argue that it's best to have them in the same deck together so you can use either attacker.
 
Night March is better.

Vespiquen has known consistency issues. It’s best run in a field where you can take full advantage of the Eeveelutions that give Vespiquen fire/water typing and you just belt out OHKOs.

You have Volcanion and Golisopod running around, but not often enough to warrant using Vespiquen.
 
LoneWolf2113 said:
I personally think Night March is much better. It's damage ramps up so much faster than Vespiquen's to the point where it's possible to hit a Turn 1 KO on most things. Oricorio isn't really played all that much so I think it shouldn't hold you back from playing either of these decks. I haven't gotten much of a chance to try out Zoroark-GX yet in either of these builds, however. I'm a little bit of a purist when it comes to Night March especially so I feel like I, personally, feel more comfortable with a more streamlined, all-basic Pokemon build. To beat Trev, try adding a Tauros-GX to your Night March and Vespiquen lists. It fits in super easily.

Hope this helps,
LoneWolf2113
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DragonFang101 said:
I agree that Night March is the better deck. It simply takes better advantage of the Trainer cards that keep it ticking, and it even does more damage. Plus, Oricorio can actually spell as much trouble for Bees as it can Night March. Some would argue that it's best to have them in the same deck together so you can use either attacker.
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Merovingian said:
Night March is better.

Vespiquen has known consistency issues. It’s best run in a field where you can take full advantage of the Eeveelutions that give Vespiquen fire/water typing and you just belt out OHKOs.

You have Volcanion and Golisopod running around, but not often enough to warrant using Vespiquen.
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Thanks for the information! I have been testing with both decks and, as you have mentioned above, Night March is much more consistent. I'm glad to here that I'm not alone on this opinion! I'll be focusing more on Night March now that I have heard from all of you.

On the topic of Trevanant match-ups, I'm really confident in the Zoroark GX being an inclusion just because ability synergizes so well with the strategy. I'll test out the Tauros GX to see if it works though and I'll let you know if it works.

Thanks for the feedback and let me know if any other partners or opinions arise. Thanks!
 
Also, just thought of this, if I do include Zoroark GX, I think the BLW Zoroark with Foul Play will be a great tech to include just because it is so good with all of the OHKO attacks running around in Expanded.

Let me know what you think! Thanks!
 
FrostBiter12 said:
Also, just thought of this, if I do include Zoroark GX, I think the BLW Zoroark with Foul Play will be a great tech to include just because it is so good with all of the OHKO attacks running around in Expanded.

Let me know what you think! Thanks!
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Interesting idea. How many Zorua do you plan on running?
 
I'll be posting a decklist soon, but right now I have three Shining Legends Zorua (incase I need to use the rare Ram) listed. I play two Zoroark GX and one Zoroark from the BLW set that copies opponents attacks. I'm not expecting to play down all three Zorua, but I have them in case I need them, discard them (which is quite common in this deck), or prize them.

I'll let everyone know when the decklist is up. Hope this helps!
 
Just posted the decklist if you want to take a look. Thanks for the support and suggestions! Let me know what you think and once again, thanks for the feedback everyone!
 
Both Night March and Vespiquen (XY: Ancient Origins 10/98) have their own pros and cons, and of course, they may also be run together. The rest of you have covered a lot of things, but I wanted to clarify: Karen and Oricorio (SM: Black Star Promos SM19; SM: Guardians Rising 56/145) can be a pain for either deck. Not sure how or why Karen would bother Vespiquen less; in fact, I would assume it worse because Vespiquen needs more in the discard to score KO's and thus has less room for redundant deck thinning tricks.

Karen can be crushing but it requires either skill or good luck on the opponent's part... or lack of skill and bad luck on your own part. Oricorio is harder on Night March only because of Joltik; it isn't a dramatic difference because Vespiquen is more likely to have a fuller discard pile than Night March, but besides wanting to attack with Joltik some of the time, it may be running something that copies from Joltik. Mew-EX is a 120 HP Pokémon worth two Prizes, Marshadow-GX is a 150 HP Pokémon worth two Prizes and Mew (XY: Fates Collide 29/124) usually wants to copy from an in-play Joltik; leaving it without a Night Marcher to copy can leave it useless. Combee don't have a lot of HP either, though, so while a 3+ Prize Supernatural Dance is less likely against Vespiquen, it can still happen, with a two Prize turn pretty likely.
 
Otaku said:
Both Night March and Vespiquen (XY: Ancient Origins 10/98) have their own pros and cons, and of course, they may also be run together. The rest of you have covered a lot of things, but I wanted to clarify: Karen and Oricorio (SM: Black Star Promos SM19; SM: Guardians Rising 56/145) can be a pain for either deck. Not sure how or why Karen would bother Vespiquen less; in fact, I would assume it worse because Vespiquen needs more in the discard to score KO's and thus has less room for redundant deck thinning tricks.

Karen can be crushing but it requires either skill or good luck on the opponent's part... or lack of skill and bad luck on your own part. Oricorio is harder on Night March only because of Joltik; it isn't a dramatic difference because Vespiquen is more likely to have a fuller discard pile than Night March, but besides wanting to attack with Joltik some of the time, it may be running something that copies from Joltik. Mew-EX is a 120 HP Pokémon worth two Prizes, Marshadow-GX is a 150 HP Pokémon worth two Prizes and Mew (XY: Fates Collide 29/124) usually wants to copy from an in-play Joltik; leaving it without a Night Marcher to copy can leave it useless. Combee don't have a lot of HP either, though, so while a 3+ Prize Supernatural Dance is less likely against Vespiquen, it can still happen, with a two Prize turn pretty likely.
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So you're saying that there's a defensive night march with single-prize attackers and an offensive night march with higher HP attacker (marshadow gx) and more damage?
 
Otaku said:
Both Night March and Vespiquen (XY: Ancient Origins 10/98) have their own pros and cons, and of course, they may also be run together. The rest of you have covered a lot of things, but I wanted to clarify: Karen and Oricorio (SM: Black Star Promos SM19; SM: Guardians Rising 56/145) can be a pain for either deck. Not sure how or why Karen would bother Vespiquen less; in fact, I would assume it worse because Vespiquen needs more in the discard to score KO's and thus has less room for redundant deck thinning tricks.

Karen can be crushing but it requires either skill or good luck on the opponent's part... or lack of skill and bad luck on your own part. Oricorio is harder on Night March only because of Joltik; it isn't a dramatic difference because Vespiquen is more likely to have a fuller discard pile than Night March, but besides wanting to attack with Joltik some of the time, it may be running something that copies from Joltik. Mew-EX is a 120 HP Pokémon worth two Prizes, Marshadow-GX is a 150 HP Pokémon worth two Prizes and Mew (XY: Fates Collide 29/124) usually wants to copy from an in-play Joltik; leaving it without a Night Marcher to copy can leave it useless. Combee don't have a lot of HP either, though, so while a 3+ Prize Supernatural Dance is less likely against Vespiquen, it can still happen, with a two Prize turn pretty likely.
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I'm sorry, I think I was a little vague with what Isaid. With Vespiquen, I was assuming that Combee would not be in play by the time your opponent placed down Oricorio. If they did place down the Oricorio that early, then it is easy to remove from your opponent's board. Karen on the other hand, does have a heavier impact on Vespiquen than Oricorio and your right. I forgot to mention though that instead of, as you mentioned, Marshadow GX and Mew EX (even thought that they are great partners) I was planning to play Zoroark GX. When your opponent uses Karen, they shuffle all of those Pokémon back into your deck and making it easier to place Pokémon onto your bench to use Riotous Beating. 150 with a Choice Band isn't a bad number along with drawing cards to reset Vespiquen. That was my though on both of the techs for Vespiquen.

Let me know if this helps clarify what I had mentioned earlier. Thanks!
 
DragonFang101 said:
So you're saying that there's a defensive night march with single-prize attackers and an offensive night march with higher HP attacker (marshadow gx) and more damage?
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I think he was just talking about which path you chose to play Night March since the deck plays Marshadow GX or Mew EX most of the time anyways. Do you set up for the quick knockouts and just focus on using your Night Marchers without risking the two-prize attackers or do you set up to play the two-prize attackers to preserve your Night Marchers (as well as type advantage: fighting or psychic). I think this is what he was trying to say, but I don't know. I hope this makes sense!
 
DragonFang101 said:
So you're saying that there's a defensive night march with single-prize attackers and an offensive night march with higher HP attacker (marshadow gx) and more damage?
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To some degree, yes. A lot of it is how you actually play your Night March deck; if I sense (or just know) an opponent is packing Oricorio I'll minimize how many Pokémon go in my discard pile and how many Joltik are in play. If this is not a concern I can rely more on Marshadow-GX or Tauros-GX in my current build. Marshadow-GX allows you to use Night March even if you have no Night March Pokémon in play (though you still need them in the discard pile).

With Karen, it is mostly a matter of pacing your discards (not dissimilar to above) and making sure you've got a few mass discard methods left.
 
Night March is better, but I'm more for playing Vespi. NM can recover from Karen easily, as it doesnt need that many Pokes in the discard. Vespi has a hard time recovering, but with Zoroark GX Karen shouldnt hurt it as much now. I have lots of experience with Vespi, so I can run it better than NM. And as Otaku said, its all about pacing what you play. How many Compressors, Puzzles, Dowsing Machies etc...
 
Otaku said:
To some degree, yes. A lot of it is how you actually play your Night March deck; if I sense (or just know) an opponent is packing Oricorio I'll minimize how many Pokémon go in my discard pile and how many Joltik are in play. If this is not a concern I can rely more on Marshadow-GX or Tauros-GX in my current build. Marshadow-GX allows you to use Night March even if you have no Night March Pokémon in play (though you still need them in the discard pile).

With Karen, it is mostly a matter of pacing your discards (not dissimilar to above) and making sure you've got a few mass discard methods left.
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This is the fundamentals for countering the counter. Great way to sum it up! I would just like to ask (moving on), what would you think about adding the Zoroark GX instead of the Marshadow GX and Tauros GX? Would it be a benefit or a loss against an opponent playing these techs (which is almost everybody)?
 
FrostBiter12 said:
This is the fundamentals for countering the counter. Great way to sum it up! I would just like to ask (moving on), what would you think about adding the Zoroark GX instead of the Marshadow GX and Tauros GX? Would it be a benefit or a loss against an opponent playing these techs (which is almost everybody)?
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I would rather not play Zoroark, as you alreadu have Shaymin and supporters to discard and draw. It also a 2 Prize Poke, and it can get Lysandre'd for a cheap KO with Marshadow GX
 
FlavorfulPineApl said:
I would rather not play Zoroark, as you alreadu have Shaymin and supporters to discard and draw. It also a 2 Prize Poke, and it can get Lysandre'd for a cheap KO with Marshadow GX
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I would like to point out that Zoroark GX has 210 HP. Shaymin EX (in most cases) is more likely to get knocked out than Zoroark GX. with 110 HP and Shaymin EX only helps draw cards once while Zoroark GX is there to continuously draw cards and discard Pokémon. I will take into account that you are right about Marshadow GX grabing the knockout on Zoroark GX, but in the list I'm playing, Hex Maniac is included.

Also, Zoroark GX is my main counter to Trevanant, one of the only decks that crush Night March/Vespiquen. Really, I just prefer playing Zoroark GX just because it synergizes so well with Night March/Vespiquen. I recently posted a decklist if you'd be interested in hearing more about it.

Anyways, I hope this helps clarify why I include Zoroark GX. Let me know what you think. Thanks!
 
FrostBiter12 said:
I would like to point out that Zoroark GX has 210 HP. Shaymin EX (in most cases) is more likely to get knocked out than Zoroark GX. with 110 HP and Shaymin EX only helps draw cards once while Zoroark GX is there to continuously draw cards and discard Pokémon. I will take into account that you are right about Marshadow GX grabing the knockout on Zoroark GX, but in the list I'm playing, Hex Maniac is included.

Also, Zoroark GX is my main counter to Trevanant, one of the only decks that crush Night March/Vespiquen. Really, I just prefer playing Zoroark GX just because it synergizes so well with Night March/Vespiquen. I recently posted a decklist if you'd be interested in hearing more about it.

Anyways, I hope this helps clarify why I include Zoroark GX. Let me know what you think. Thanks!
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Actually, you never did mention you ran it, just opinions on running it. I do think that Giratina is a better counter to Trev than Zoroark. I could see a 1-1 line, but in all honesty; NM runs better by itself, without requiring the support of a Stage 1. But all to their own ;).
 
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