Hey guys, I'm a big fan of setup decks. Claydol just doesn't seem to be cutting it any more. With crobat G and honcro sniping for 40 i never even see a claydol any more. And if I accidently get a claydol setup they just power spray it. So I ask the community for help.. Has anyone got any good ideas? What did we do before claydol? Is there anyone out there that has found a good alternative to claydol? Maybe a combo on trainers and supporters that work? Also since your not getting claydol any more at the start of the game.. that gives you an extra burst of speed. Anyone have any suggestion on which pokemon you feel would benifit the most from it?
no claydol in a setup deck?
- Thread starter prenceofdarkness
- Start date
I'm actually going to open this and move it. This could bring about some good discussion.
IMO Claydol is still a mandatory in stage2 decks, which seems rare nowadays and also very good card as 1-1 line in most of SP decks also. Sniping hurts Claydol a lot, but Power Spray isn't as much of a issue as with Uxie. Volkner's Philosophy is great drawing card in decks you dont want to run Claydol in.
J
Juliacoolo
Ya. Claydol in SP is hard. If you have a tight decklist, you might not want to run it. If you do run it, possibly sacrafice early to get it out. Your opponent only has so many power sprays.
I personally don't like Sableye- cards that are almost completely dead draw after the 1st or 2nd turn in the game aren't too great in my book. When that Spiritomb comes out however, I'd consider it.
I mainly made this post to say that I really like the OP's avatar lol
I mainly made this post to say that I really like the OP's avatar lol
hmmm...well, in my playing experience...you can still get a Claydol off, SP decks are starting to slow in popularity a bit, so while you do get a good number of people running SP decks, there aren't quite as many, especially due to a good number of them being weeded out for various reasons
one of the decks I currently run is a fighting Flygon deck, using the RR Flygon...I run two Claydol in the deck, and tend to have at least one out by 2nd or 3rd turn, and if all goes well, I could get the other out just 2 - 3 turns later...yes, alot of times they do get targeted, but really it's apart of the game and something that has to be accounted for in the overall strategy...if the metagame in your area consists of a good number of "good" SP decks, the best thing I've come up with to counteract the Sprays are to just over"power" your opponent...they only have 4 PS's, which means they have a limited number of powers they can stop, and if your deck uses more powers than they have sprays for, they have to then decide when is the best time to spray, and a mistimed spray or a spray not used when it should have been can cost an SP deck the match
before Claydol, there was Delcatty (Energy Draw), which was rotated out during the set rotation before the last one (where there was no rotation at all), and before Delcatty, I can't really remember what was used...most people these days are either stuck on Claydol or Uxie for their decks, setup or not...however, I do believe a setup deck can be achieved without the use of Claydol (and even without the use of Uxie)...this does require the player trying to do so to have good strategic skills, because not only will they have to build their deck to compensate for not having that draw engine, but they will also have to build their deck with pokemon that will assist the deck strategy without needing a draw engine or that can fend for itself without the draw engine...a good example of this is Speedrill (the current World Champion variant especially)...the deck that won worlds used Claydol, but throughout the course of the tournament the WC (world champ) found there were times Claydol was a liability (I.E.: going against InfLux/LuxApe), the first game against LuxApe he loses due to them exploiting Claydol, 2nd game against a LuxApe he opts not play Claydol, wins, and considers that to be the best match of the day...decks can be played without Claydol it's just a matter of having the strategy skills to do so...something I've noticed most players don't really have, even some that claim to know what they're talking about
now the comment about getting a burst of speed from not having Claydol at the beginning of the game...to be honest, Claydol does add a bit of a speed element to alot of decks, due to being such a refreshing draw engine...if anything, I would consider not having Claydol at the beginning of a match to be a bit of a slow down...now as to what pokemon would benefit the most from not having Claydol, there is quite a list, but really it just depends on how a deck is built, and most players build decks with their draw engines in mind...at the end of this I will try to list some alternatives for Claydol, but I will say, to not use Uxie or Claydol in a deck takes alot of work and strategy
now I will list some alternatives, pokemon wise:
Blissey (PT) - still Stage 1, but a bit beefier on the HP, and while it doesn't have a power to help you draw, it's first attack allows you to draw until you have 6 in hand and does 20 damage for 1 colorless, it's power also allows you to discard a card to heal 1 pokemon for 20 which can come in handy, especially for decks that need for certain cards to be in the discard pile or keep a certain pokemon just out of KO range
Blissey (MT) - another Stage 1, still beefier on the HP than Claydol or Uxie, but this one would be considered more a Stage 2 due to it's power requiring Happiny to be in the evo line...it's power allows you to shuffle cards into your deck upto the amount of energy attached to Blissey and draw that many cards after shuffling, not only does this require you to already have a hand, but it also causes you to put energy on a pokemon that you probably won't be attacking with...not exactly the best choice for alternatives
Porygon2 (GE) - Stage 1, not that great on HP, but can be used well in a deck that runs a high amount of Supporters...it's power allows you to discard a Supporter from your hand and use the power of the Supporter you discarded as the effect of the Poke-Power...with it not having the best HP, it easily becomes a target for sniping and counter-sniping (i.e.: Shadow Room)...but if you can mange to keep it out and alive, and have a couple VS Seeker in the deck, the power can come in handy to get 2 Supporters per turn, essentially...with Supporters like Volkner's Philosophy, you can manage some good draw power with it
Bronzong (MT) - yet another Stage 1, this has about the same HP as Claydol (only 10 more), this one used to be used a bit early on in the DP format...however, once Claydol hit the scene it took a backseat (more like got put out of the car period)...it's power allows you to draw one, but you have to discard a card after drawing...however, if you discard an energy you get to draw another card...not exactly the best or the fastest, but it kinda helps out decks that want energy in the discard pile...one big drawback though, is with such a high retreat cost and only 90 HP, it can easily become a liability
Lapras (GE) - Basic, same HP as Claydol...while it doesn't have a poke-power for draw (or a power at all for that matter), it's first attack for 1 {W} gives you a Cyrus's Conspiracy effect...get a Tool, a Supporter, and a basic energy...not that bad, and with Snowpoint Temple, it can last a little longer...Machamp says hi however, but Unown G says hi to Machamp
Chatot (MD) - Basic, a little low on the HP scale, no power...it's first attack, for nothing, allows you to shuffle your hand into your deck and draw until you number of cards in hand as your opponent...alot of players are considering this pokemon to compensate for power lock decks...as more often than not, the deck that is doing the power locking tends to have a good size hand...however with only 60hp, it won't be lasting for very long
Dialga (PT) #5 - Basic, 100hp...it's power can come in handy to get back KO'd or discarded pokemon from the discard pile (upto 3), but it's drawing power comes from it's one attack...for a metal and 2 colorless, it attacks for 50 and allows you to draw until you have 7 in hand...not that bad, but this attack can be amnesia'd and the power makes it a Shadow Room target
Dialga (MD) - Basic, 100hp, no power...this is another one that requires you to attack in order to draw...but unlike it's PT counterpart, it has 2 attacks...for 1 {M} you draw until you have 6 in hand...it's 2nd attack is pretty costly for doing only 60, possible 80 with a heads on a coin flip...it does have a held item, which increases damage by 20 if the pokemon is weak to metal, but even then, the attack that does damage is still costly
Dodrio (SV) - Stage 1, 80hp, power draw...this one, some people don't consider to be that great...it has a power to allow you to draw one card...this may not be a power your opponent will be so quick to spray, but with only drawing one card and it being a Shadow Room target, it definitely has it's drawbacks
Dusknoir (SF) #1 - Stage 2, 120hp, power draw...Dusknoir is one that not only allows you to draw 2, but it also does 20 dmg to itself for using it's power...under normal circumstances, that wouldn't be all that great, but the dmg sets itself up for its first attack...which puts the same amount of damage counters it has on any of your opponents pokemon...if they can't seem to get rid of it fast enough, this one could cause a ton of problems...having such a high HP, after getting so many damage counters on it, it can counter-snipe just about anything...but this one isn't very splashable and it being a Stage 2, it can take a bit to get out
Gardevoir (SW) Stage 2, 110HP, power...an oldie that isn't used as much anymore, real popular during the last format in the form of PLOX/GG...it's power allows you to search your opponents discard pile and use a supporter's ability as the effect of that that power...not exactly game breaking, but can come in handy...being a Stage2 makes it a bit harder to get to, but normally this is placed in a deck that is built around it, especially due to the fact that it attack shuts down your opponents ability to use poke-powers on their next turn and does 60 dmg for 1 {P} and 2 colorless
Jirachi (RR) Basic, 60HP, power search...a low hp basic, that has an ok 1st attack and a pretty weak 2nd attack...the first attack allows you to use the ability of a Supporter in play as the effect of that attack...the 2nd attack does an irresistable 20dmg for 1 {M}...but the reason I listed this card, is not only because of the 1st attack, but also because of it's power...if it is knocked out by dmg from an attack during your opponents turn, you can search your deck for any 1 card and put it in your hand...not bad, but if it is Shadow Room'd it will not get the effect of it's power, so it does have some drawbacks
Lopunny (LA) Stage 1, 80hp, no power...another Stage1, with the same HP as Claydol, but this one doesn't have a power...it has a body...the body comes in handy because as long as it's active, it heals one from all of your benched pokemon...it also has 2 attacks, the first of which allows you to draw 3 for no cost...the 2nd attack allows you to do 30 dmg for 2 colorless and 60 dmg against evolved pokemon...not the greatest, but having it out for a couple of turns wouldn't be bad
Masquerain (SV) Stage 1, 80hp, no power...Stage 1 again, same HP as Claydol...this one has a body that reduces 20 dmg from mostly all of your opponents attacks as long as it's active...it's draw power comes from it's attack, 1 {G} and 2 colorless allows you to draw 2 cards and do 30dmg...while the dmg is subpar, to be able to draw 2 cards while doing that dmg isn't that bad...this one could be put to good use in a decent grass deck
Minun (SW) Basic, 60hp, power draw...I know there will probably be a good number of people to ask me why this one...even though it is OHKO'd by Shadow Room and doesn't take much to snipe it through any other means...I still think it is decent to be able to draw 2 cards after a pokemon gets KO'd...yes, it's sprayable, but as I said earlier, put it in a deck that will have multiple things to spray, then it becomes a choice of what it is the most important thing to spray
Plusle (SV) Basic, 60hp, no power...yes, I know, another little piece of fodder...but this one has a free attack that allows you to draw until you have the same number of cards as your opponent +1 more...it's a decent one to use to try and get cards to set up with early...as sometimes your opponent might even ignore it and try to snipe what you're trying to setup on the bench
Sableye (SF) Basic, 60hp, no power...this one alot of people used to use quite a bit when it first came out, especially for {D} decks...even though for a setup deck, you might not want to start with it, as it will make you start first and most setup decks want to go 2nd to start using TSS's...it does have a free attack that comes in handy for starting 1st though...it allows you to get a Supporter from your deck, discard it, and use it's ability as the effect of that attack...not that bad, but depending on your TSS setup, as I said, you might not want to start with it
Sentret (SW) Basic, 60hp, no power...I'm only mentioning this one because of it's 1st attack...1 colorless gives you the effect of a Pokedex...look at the top 2, choose 1 to go to you hand, and place the other at the bottom of your deck
Slowking (GE) Stage 1, 80hp, power search...another stage 1 to sit on the bench, it's power allows you to search your deck for one card if any of your pokemon were KO'd during your opponents last turn...not bad, even though this pokemon is pretty much suseptible to the same drawbacks that Claydol has
Snorlax Lv. X 130hp, power draw...a pretty hefty wall, especially because in order to use it's poke-power, it has to be active...as long as it's active, you can use the power once/turn to draw until you have 6 in hand...but if you do, this pokemon is then put to sleep...for most other pokemon, this would be a problem (unless you had Xatu), but with the right basic form of Snorlax you could still attack and do even more dmg than you could when it was awake...but honestly, this one is only decent if the deck is kinda built around it
Staraptor FB LV. X 100hp, power search...you want a quick and easy way to get a Supporter to your hand to help you setup...this is the pokemon for the job, it's power allows you to search for a Supporter and put into your hand...use this with cards like Porygon2 - Download (poke-power), you have a way to get a lot of support pretty fast...and it takes a bit to Shadow Room OHKO this one
Unown R (LA) Basic 60hp, power draw...this is one that I've seen get used for just drawing and thinning the deck...while it is a basic with only 60hp, that really doesn't matter, because the likelihood of this staying in play is next to nothing...it's power allows you to discard it from play to draw 1 card, so most times, the moment it gets played, it gets discarded for it's power...most players will not waste a power spray on that
Uxie (LA) Basic 70hp, power draw...honestly, just stating the name says enough...if you don't know what this card does, trust me...someone on this thread, will tell you...I know there are alot of decks that have resorted to using Uxie over Claydol, mainly due to not having to sit on the bench in order to get it's draw power...the biggest drawback is that it can be sprayed, and once it's been played and sprayed...ya gotta find a way to put it back and try it again...but until then, no matter what kind of deck this card is in, it can attack fairly easily (X or not) as it's attacks all require colorless energy
hope this helps
one of the decks I currently run is a fighting Flygon deck, using the RR Flygon...I run two Claydol in the deck, and tend to have at least one out by 2nd or 3rd turn, and if all goes well, I could get the other out just 2 - 3 turns later...yes, alot of times they do get targeted, but really it's apart of the game and something that has to be accounted for in the overall strategy...if the metagame in your area consists of a good number of "good" SP decks, the best thing I've come up with to counteract the Sprays are to just over"power" your opponent...they only have 4 PS's, which means they have a limited number of powers they can stop, and if your deck uses more powers than they have sprays for, they have to then decide when is the best time to spray, and a mistimed spray or a spray not used when it should have been can cost an SP deck the match
before Claydol, there was Delcatty (Energy Draw), which was rotated out during the set rotation before the last one (where there was no rotation at all), and before Delcatty, I can't really remember what was used...most people these days are either stuck on Claydol or Uxie for their decks, setup or not...however, I do believe a setup deck can be achieved without the use of Claydol (and even without the use of Uxie)...this does require the player trying to do so to have good strategic skills, because not only will they have to build their deck to compensate for not having that draw engine, but they will also have to build their deck with pokemon that will assist the deck strategy without needing a draw engine or that can fend for itself without the draw engine...a good example of this is Speedrill (the current World Champion variant especially)...the deck that won worlds used Claydol, but throughout the course of the tournament the WC (world champ) found there were times Claydol was a liability (I.E.: going against InfLux/LuxApe), the first game against LuxApe he loses due to them exploiting Claydol, 2nd game against a LuxApe he opts not play Claydol, wins, and considers that to be the best match of the day...decks can be played without Claydol it's just a matter of having the strategy skills to do so...something I've noticed most players don't really have, even some that claim to know what they're talking about
now the comment about getting a burst of speed from not having Claydol at the beginning of the game...to be honest, Claydol does add a bit of a speed element to alot of decks, due to being such a refreshing draw engine...if anything, I would consider not having Claydol at the beginning of a match to be a bit of a slow down...now as to what pokemon would benefit the most from not having Claydol, there is quite a list, but really it just depends on how a deck is built, and most players build decks with their draw engines in mind...at the end of this I will try to list some alternatives for Claydol, but I will say, to not use Uxie or Claydol in a deck takes alot of work and strategy
now I will list some alternatives, pokemon wise:
Blissey (PT) - still Stage 1, but a bit beefier on the HP, and while it doesn't have a power to help you draw, it's first attack allows you to draw until you have 6 in hand and does 20 damage for 1 colorless, it's power also allows you to discard a card to heal 1 pokemon for 20 which can come in handy, especially for decks that need for certain cards to be in the discard pile or keep a certain pokemon just out of KO range
Blissey (MT) - another Stage 1, still beefier on the HP than Claydol or Uxie, but this one would be considered more a Stage 2 due to it's power requiring Happiny to be in the evo line...it's power allows you to shuffle cards into your deck upto the amount of energy attached to Blissey and draw that many cards after shuffling, not only does this require you to already have a hand, but it also causes you to put energy on a pokemon that you probably won't be attacking with...not exactly the best choice for alternatives
Porygon2 (GE) - Stage 1, not that great on HP, but can be used well in a deck that runs a high amount of Supporters...it's power allows you to discard a Supporter from your hand and use the power of the Supporter you discarded as the effect of the Poke-Power...with it not having the best HP, it easily becomes a target for sniping and counter-sniping (i.e.: Shadow Room)...but if you can mange to keep it out and alive, and have a couple VS Seeker in the deck, the power can come in handy to get 2 Supporters per turn, essentially...with Supporters like Volkner's Philosophy, you can manage some good draw power with it
Bronzong (MT) - yet another Stage 1, this has about the same HP as Claydol (only 10 more), this one used to be used a bit early on in the DP format...however, once Claydol hit the scene it took a backseat (more like got put out of the car period)...it's power allows you to draw one, but you have to discard a card after drawing...however, if you discard an energy you get to draw another card...not exactly the best or the fastest, but it kinda helps out decks that want energy in the discard pile...one big drawback though, is with such a high retreat cost and only 90 HP, it can easily become a liability
Lapras (GE) - Basic, same HP as Claydol...while it doesn't have a poke-power for draw (or a power at all for that matter), it's first attack for 1 {W} gives you a Cyrus's Conspiracy effect...get a Tool, a Supporter, and a basic energy...not that bad, and with Snowpoint Temple, it can last a little longer...Machamp says hi however, but Unown G says hi to Machamp
Chatot (MD) - Basic, a little low on the HP scale, no power...it's first attack, for nothing, allows you to shuffle your hand into your deck and draw until you number of cards in hand as your opponent...alot of players are considering this pokemon to compensate for power lock decks...as more often than not, the deck that is doing the power locking tends to have a good size hand...however with only 60hp, it won't be lasting for very long
Dialga (PT) #5 - Basic, 100hp...it's power can come in handy to get back KO'd or discarded pokemon from the discard pile (upto 3), but it's drawing power comes from it's one attack...for a metal and 2 colorless, it attacks for 50 and allows you to draw until you have 7 in hand...not that bad, but this attack can be amnesia'd and the power makes it a Shadow Room target
Dialga (MD) - Basic, 100hp, no power...this is another one that requires you to attack in order to draw...but unlike it's PT counterpart, it has 2 attacks...for 1 {M} you draw until you have 6 in hand...it's 2nd attack is pretty costly for doing only 60, possible 80 with a heads on a coin flip...it does have a held item, which increases damage by 20 if the pokemon is weak to metal, but even then, the attack that does damage is still costly
Dodrio (SV) - Stage 1, 80hp, power draw...this one, some people don't consider to be that great...it has a power to allow you to draw one card...this may not be a power your opponent will be so quick to spray, but with only drawing one card and it being a Shadow Room target, it definitely has it's drawbacks
Dusknoir (SF) #1 - Stage 2, 120hp, power draw...Dusknoir is one that not only allows you to draw 2, but it also does 20 dmg to itself for using it's power...under normal circumstances, that wouldn't be all that great, but the dmg sets itself up for its first attack...which puts the same amount of damage counters it has on any of your opponents pokemon...if they can't seem to get rid of it fast enough, this one could cause a ton of problems...having such a high HP, after getting so many damage counters on it, it can counter-snipe just about anything...but this one isn't very splashable and it being a Stage 2, it can take a bit to get out
Gardevoir (SW) Stage 2, 110HP, power...an oldie that isn't used as much anymore, real popular during the last format in the form of PLOX/GG...it's power allows you to search your opponents discard pile and use a supporter's ability as the effect of that that power...not exactly game breaking, but can come in handy...being a Stage2 makes it a bit harder to get to, but normally this is placed in a deck that is built around it, especially due to the fact that it attack shuts down your opponents ability to use poke-powers on their next turn and does 60 dmg for 1 {P} and 2 colorless
Jirachi (RR) Basic, 60HP, power search...a low hp basic, that has an ok 1st attack and a pretty weak 2nd attack...the first attack allows you to use the ability of a Supporter in play as the effect of that attack...the 2nd attack does an irresistable 20dmg for 1 {M}...but the reason I listed this card, is not only because of the 1st attack, but also because of it's power...if it is knocked out by dmg from an attack during your opponents turn, you can search your deck for any 1 card and put it in your hand...not bad, but if it is Shadow Room'd it will not get the effect of it's power, so it does have some drawbacks
Lopunny (LA) Stage 1, 80hp, no power...another Stage1, with the same HP as Claydol, but this one doesn't have a power...it has a body...the body comes in handy because as long as it's active, it heals one from all of your benched pokemon...it also has 2 attacks, the first of which allows you to draw 3 for no cost...the 2nd attack allows you to do 30 dmg for 2 colorless and 60 dmg against evolved pokemon...not the greatest, but having it out for a couple of turns wouldn't be bad
Masquerain (SV) Stage 1, 80hp, no power...Stage 1 again, same HP as Claydol...this one has a body that reduces 20 dmg from mostly all of your opponents attacks as long as it's active...it's draw power comes from it's attack, 1 {G} and 2 colorless allows you to draw 2 cards and do 30dmg...while the dmg is subpar, to be able to draw 2 cards while doing that dmg isn't that bad...this one could be put to good use in a decent grass deck
Minun (SW) Basic, 60hp, power draw...I know there will probably be a good number of people to ask me why this one...even though it is OHKO'd by Shadow Room and doesn't take much to snipe it through any other means...I still think it is decent to be able to draw 2 cards after a pokemon gets KO'd...yes, it's sprayable, but as I said earlier, put it in a deck that will have multiple things to spray, then it becomes a choice of what it is the most important thing to spray
Plusle (SV) Basic, 60hp, no power...yes, I know, another little piece of fodder...but this one has a free attack that allows you to draw until you have the same number of cards as your opponent +1 more...it's a decent one to use to try and get cards to set up with early...as sometimes your opponent might even ignore it and try to snipe what you're trying to setup on the bench
Sableye (SF) Basic, 60hp, no power...this one alot of people used to use quite a bit when it first came out, especially for {D} decks...even though for a setup deck, you might not want to start with it, as it will make you start first and most setup decks want to go 2nd to start using TSS's...it does have a free attack that comes in handy for starting 1st though...it allows you to get a Supporter from your deck, discard it, and use it's ability as the effect of that attack...not that bad, but depending on your TSS setup, as I said, you might not want to start with it
Sentret (SW) Basic, 60hp, no power...I'm only mentioning this one because of it's 1st attack...1 colorless gives you the effect of a Pokedex...look at the top 2, choose 1 to go to you hand, and place the other at the bottom of your deck
Slowking (GE) Stage 1, 80hp, power search...another stage 1 to sit on the bench, it's power allows you to search your deck for one card if any of your pokemon were KO'd during your opponents last turn...not bad, even though this pokemon is pretty much suseptible to the same drawbacks that Claydol has
Snorlax Lv. X 130hp, power draw...a pretty hefty wall, especially because in order to use it's poke-power, it has to be active...as long as it's active, you can use the power once/turn to draw until you have 6 in hand...but if you do, this pokemon is then put to sleep...for most other pokemon, this would be a problem (unless you had Xatu), but with the right basic form of Snorlax you could still attack and do even more dmg than you could when it was awake...but honestly, this one is only decent if the deck is kinda built around it
Staraptor FB LV. X 100hp, power search...you want a quick and easy way to get a Supporter to your hand to help you setup...this is the pokemon for the job, it's power allows you to search for a Supporter and put into your hand...use this with cards like Porygon2 - Download (poke-power), you have a way to get a lot of support pretty fast...and it takes a bit to Shadow Room OHKO this one
Unown R (LA) Basic 60hp, power draw...this is one that I've seen get used for just drawing and thinning the deck...while it is a basic with only 60hp, that really doesn't matter, because the likelihood of this staying in play is next to nothing...it's power allows you to discard it from play to draw 1 card, so most times, the moment it gets played, it gets discarded for it's power...most players will not waste a power spray on that
Uxie (LA) Basic 70hp, power draw...honestly, just stating the name says enough...if you don't know what this card does, trust me...someone on this thread, will tell you...I know there are alot of decks that have resorted to using Uxie over Claydol, mainly due to not having to sit on the bench in order to get it's draw power...the biggest drawback is that it can be sprayed, and once it's been played and sprayed...ya gotta find a way to put it back and try it again...but until then, no matter what kind of deck this card is in, it can attack fairly easily (X or not) as it's attacks all require colorless energy
hope this helps
Power Spray isn't played that much to not play Claydol completely. And even then, they'll kill Claydol before having to Power Spray it. I know in an SP kind of deck, they'd kill the Claydol first and then Power Spray the Uxies, which is a better strategy IMO. It's still needed for consistency in certain SP decks and decks like Beedrill, Gengar, and most importantly Flygon.
dmaster out.
dmaster out.
Also some SP decks only play 2-3 Power Spray.