No room for nonconformity?

Ophie

Ophie

Aspiring Trainer
Member
It's approaching 2 years since I last played in a tournament (placed almost directly in the middle), so I don't know how the competitive scene is like.

However, I did notice on here (and other places, like PokéGym, Serebii, and even GameFAQs) that the moment card scans come up, people speculate on what's going to be popular, and usually, they're right. It's as if a lot of people on message boards regarding the TCG have studied and memorized every single card in the format and are familiar with every single combination out there. And that, in turn, means that every corner of possible deck ideas has been considered and explored down to the micrometer.

Now, I'm a nonconformist. I don't like to play with any deck that a lot of Spikes are going to use. (In other words, I'm a Johnny type of player.) That is, I'm at my most satisfied when I go into a tournament with a deck no one else is using. But if all the ground has been covered, then that means I've simply been using the ideas these people have rejected.

On the other hand, I heard about "The Truth" and how it got second overall at the 2011 World Championships. I was pretty surprised and impressed to hear about that, and it looks like others were highly impressed with the deck and its user's performance too. I do wonder--does that mean that there are small bits of unexplored territory? How would "The Truth" have been received if the deck's contents were revealed before the tournament itself?
 
First off, "The Truth" wasn't an absolutely unexpected and nonconformist. We already knew very well about Vileplume and Reuniclus. Donphan was a natural pair for them, and a natural pair for Donphan was dragons. Nobody ever pulled the concepts together. It wasn't truly unique. It was a few combos that we already knew about that came together and worked out based on the metagame.

Our cards are designed in a very top-down perspective these days. It is obvious what to use with them, so there aren't too many combos that make Johnnies excited. Almost all cards these days have a very specific purpose in our metagame. There isn't room for creativity in cards.

You said it yourself that you are nonconformist. You are a true Johnny. A key feature of Johnnies is that they are stubborn beyond belief. This format is a numbers game. I ran a fairly rogue deck for Cities that nobody saw coming. What Pokemon were in it? Eelektric, Magnezone, and Thundurus. How was this rogue? I ran 3 Thundurus, 12 energies, and a slew of early game focused TSS. My list rarely lost mirror and had obscure matchups against things that it really wasn't supposed to beat (I went about 8-2 against fighting type variants at the end of Cities). My deck was unexpected and very powerful due to its early game potential (T1 80 fairly consistently can do a lot). I am a Spike, but I can tell you for a fact that no other Spikes that I saw were using the same deck in the same way as I was.

Basically, TSS lines really decide how you play your deck. The Pokemon are taking a back seat as they should. TSS determine how your deck plays, so get creative with your TSS, and you're golden. The numbers of each card you have in your deck is what'll make your deck good. You won't have a combo that makes people read what your cards do, but you'll have numbers that'll make your opponent count and recount the number of card X in your discard pile. That is how our format is, so get over it or get out.

[/sand=Zero] -Celebi23
 
I see. The last time I played in a tournament was late 4th generation. I used a deck focused on Raticate from Arceus, and if I recall correctly, ended 4-3. It was a total wild card--I would win and lose against archetypes about as often as against a random Joe who cobbled together his or her favorite Pokémon to see what would happen. How was the format like then compared to how it's like now?

You said that it's hard for Johnny players to get excited now. That must be why I stopped playing in tournaments past that point. Was it becoming like that during then?
 
4th Gen had so many sets that people could come up with many combinations of random cards. Those combinations were not good, but they were something. Now, the game has gone in a more conservative manner. We have limited resources, so we must manage those resources well. Filling our 60 card decks with meaningful cards is what this format is all about. There are a few good Pokemon, but picking your lines is what will get you wins. There aren't too many weird Pokemon/combos that are good. There are combos, but they are almost always horrid. This format is the era of feelings. You just have to feel what numbers are right in your deck, and you can create a fairly interesting deck. I have lost many games because my opponent played 4 of a card instead of the normal 3. Just be creative with your numbers and you'll do well. Not a format for traditional Johnnies, but you can make it work. Just focus on what feels right, and you'll do fine. Don't rule out good decks because they are popular. Rule out decks because they are not worth playing.
 
Isn't that what a Spike would do though? Or I suppose you mean that a non-traditional Johnny would build decks based on the numbers of cards rather than their subjects.

I am a traditional Johnny though. It's not that I wanted to make a unique deck; no, I picked what I felt were neglected. For instance, I ultimately chose Raticate because Raticate gets ignored everywhere ever since Ash got rid of his several years ago. If this is the way that the card game is going right now, I suppose I'll wait it out a while longer with tournaments.

Johnnies have always felt rare in the Pokémon TCG though.
 
Tough luck. Shake up or ship out to be honest. There are single cards that can see unexpected and swingy placement in decks (lost remover comes to mind). People who build decks for the sake of nonconformity really bother me. If you want to win, play good decks and play them well. If you don't care about winning, play whatever and don't complain that weird cards aren't good. Obviously, you care about winning to an extent. Follow the format or get caught in the dust. There is nothing in our format that will really make a traditional Johnny happy. That is just how our format really is. There is far more support right now for a good Timmy than a Johnny. Our game is degenerating to a Timmy paradise. Spikes will dominate the format, but the card design is pushing further and further into a heaven for Timmies.
 
I wouldn't consider myself sharply one way or the other way on the spectrum (and that isn't just because I have no idea what a Johnny or Spike or Timmy is), but rather, I have tried to pick the fun decks that very few people play, but they work. I've done this pretty much the entirety of when I was involved in TCG - during Base and Neo eras, I ran a Toxic Gas Muk variant, then after that I backed away from the TCG and didn't start back up until Mysterious Treasures, tweaking my existing deck with cards that complimented my existing strategy - ironically enough from Meganium and Parasect MT, two key players at their prerelease. (Amazingly, it worked. For months everyone feared my surprise Parasect drop. {G} for 40+Sleep+Poison? Yes please.)

I've since moved on (as that was way back in 2007 or so), but the theme of playing fun decks that work has kept up - Gigas, then Hippowdon, then Gigas again, then Cursegar (I think this was one of the few times I played a top-tier deck for the sake of it), then Gigas again (around here is when the MD-on rotation happened), and I kept Gigas up until the HS-on rotation, upon which I cycled first to Blastoise, then to Gengar...and now more recently I'm actually trying something totally weird: V-Blast donk.

In pretty much all of those cases, I played with a deck that had been seen before but had since fallen out of favor for some odd reason, then I made my own modifications and made a tourney-sturdy list out of it...and it worked. They still work. Granted, I haven't top-cutted at all (although I did come close at a Regs one time but missed out due to a misplay), but I performed quite well, and I had fun in the process.

I don't try to go out of my way to play a deck that nobody plays just for the sake of it - I try to play a deck that few people play and actually has potential to do well - and not just the surprise potential. If I can build my deck to be sturdy (usually that means having a good Trainer engine) that can do what I want it to do, and I can play in the tournament, win a few and lose a few, and can say I had fun as well at the end of the day, then it was worth it. This is why I usually play the same deck for a couple months at a time - I tend to get attached to what I've created. (Oddly enough, the Gigas I mentioned I played for over 18 months in rotation, and even now past July 1st, I'm still tweaking it within the MD-CoL regulations, because I love it so much.)

So why the heck did I just say all of that? Long story short: you don't want to just build a deck with cards that nobody uses and just expect to do well, especially when it comes to the Trainer field. (Face it, you need at least 2 Collector in a deck, and there are tons of other staples besides.) But there is nothing wrong with playing with your favorites. Consider the resources you have available, trading for other cards you need to get (again, this is bigger in the Trainer department in most cases), and then build your deck so that it works to your satisfaction. Winning definitely isn't everything, but losing certainly sucks, so you want to build your deck so that you can win and have fun while doing so.

And if I totally ignored your points while writing this up...I'm sorry. Let me know where I missed your points.
 
Nah, it's perfectly fine. You're saying that there is still room for innovation today, which is the main question I wanted to ask. And yeah, I'm aware there's very little wiggle room in the Trainers/Supporters/Stadium part, possibly even less than in the Energy part. They just show up, do their thing, and go away, so I don't mind quite as much. If there's a card that really catches my interest, I'll see if I can get it to work though.

It's really more of a question about the culture than of the card game itself. This is a phenomenon I've noticed ever since I came here in the early 4th generation: People scrutinize each set that comes out and seemingly determines everything worth using immediately. It strikes me as unusual because I don't see this happening for any other game. The Pokémon video games, for instance, has a LOT of uncharted territory, and I sit comfortably in that territory (such as picking off people's Garchomps in Pokémon Battle Revolution using Masquerain). It's easy to find ways to take your opponents by surprise in the video games with unexpected Pokémon; it's way harder to do that in the TCG.

So it's a question I've been meaning to ask for a while, as to how often there's a shining spot that these people who meticulously search through sets and find strategies miss. I've been wondering how it is they do that, and if the Pokémon TCG lends itself to that sort of thing. I don't see it happening with Yu-Gi-Oh! or Magic: The Gathering, as new strategies pop up with older cards all the time. (Also, I'm not complaining about this, Zero. I'm just curious as to how the phenomenon works. Sounds like the fact that I introduced myself as a nonconformist has rubbed you the wrong way.)

Also, "Timmy," "Johnny," and "Spike" are terms used to describe the three main types of TCG players. The "Timmy" is enthusiastic and giddy and likes to see big things happen (most Legendary Pokémon get Timmy cards, for instance), the "Spike" plays to win and will go for the most efficient cards (if a Pokémon has a strong one-Energy attack, it's a Spike card, or at least designed for Spikes), and the "Johnny" is more interested in making one's own deck and expressing him- or herself with it (successful Johnny cards become Spike cards). This site being focused on the competitive side of the TCG, there are more Spikes than Timmies or Johnnies. Sounds like you are a Timmy, DNA--you go for whatever deck thrills you the most, but it doesn't describe your approach quite perfectly. Here's the link.
 
@Zero: Okay I have to ask this: You said, and I quote The Pokemon are taking a back seat as they should. Why is that? I don't deny that the game has shaped up that way but in my opinion they should not be taking a back seat as this is the POKEMON trading card game not TSS trading card game. In the past there have been comparisons to Yugioh, and as a casual player I came to see that Yugioh was often more about the Spells and Traps than the monsters themselves, which seemed kind of contrary to me. That was something, in the day, that I appreciated about Pokemon. It might be my old fashionedness (when the Pokemon made the decks and Bill, Professor Oak, and other Trainers were around merely to support the players attempt to help you get the win with the Pokemon).

I have to admit that I too miss the days when you could be bit more diverse in your Pokemon and Trainer choice instead of having to conform to some sort of patter (The Truth, 5-6 Corners, whatever). I am aware that there was some disadvantage, as in those days type match ups (at that point it was one or two types per deck, except the colorless) could often determine the outcome of the match before it began.

So I suppose what I'm asking is, why do you think the Pokemon should be taking a backseat?
 
@Ophie: 200 cards in your library? I thought it was capped at 60 nowadays for deckbuilding. How on earth would you get more 3 times that?
I read the article and I find like I'm primarily a Johnny with a sub of Timmy: I tend to go a bit more for practicality than I do for big numbers - granted, Gigas X has 150 HP and a 100 damage attack (big numbers right there), but I try to be as efficient as I can to make it work, using combos that most people either wouldn't expect or just leave them shocked (like Detouring Team Rocket's Trickery). Granted, I like winning, but I like having fun more. (And I don't like Spikes at all. I want them to all leave but I know that will never happen; oh well.)

Back to the topic. Usually the deck-building process is controlled by what strong staple or tech cards exist in the format. That should be a no-brainer. However, the problem that is encountered in this format is that there is less variety than there was last format, and some techs that were around last format have made those this time around unfeasible. (For example, last format Smeargle was a phenomenal tech because of the dominating Unown Q, but after rotation Smeargle saw less and less use; Absol Prime could fall under this umbrella as well. That will probably change when Skyarrow Bridge comes out, but for the most part they haven't been used on a wide scale. Another example is Umbreon; it was a great tech last format, but due to the absence of Powers and Bodies, its usage has now dropped to zero.)

Another thing that makes VG different from the TCG is the advent of EV training and team-building. Let's take a Gengar as an example. In the VG, you can run a Sub/Disable set, a Hypnosis set, or just some all-out attacking set with Life Orb, and all of them work very similarly (they will all run Shadow Ball and Focus Blast, pretty much); while they all have the same goal, they each go about it a bit differently - Sub/Disable is a scout that finds out what his target is running, then locks him out of it (forcing a switch); Hypnosis just puts the other lead to sleep right away forcing a switch (but with only 60% chance of success), and Life Orb just uses Gengar's raw power to its full potential, given it runs circles around most things. Now, let's try to take this principle over to the TCG. TCG cards, unlike VG Pokemon, aren't flexible - the text doesn't change, so for the most part, running Gengar in the TCG is basically saying "Lost World or bust" - granted, there are several different ways to go about that, but ultimately, that is the only prime objective you're allowed.

TCG is nowhere near as flexible as VG is, and it probably never will be - and that's just because playstyle is different. VG is nice in that it allows a lot more variety, even allowing you to make come-from-behind wins with your favorites (within reason); Porygon-Z isn't very often seen, but when it takes the field, it is a total monster, frequently taking out 2 or more before it falls itself. In the TCG? suspicious beam beta lolololololololol

The reason why new strategies don't pop up as often with older cards, however, is mostly because of rotation - only a limited amount of sets are legal at any one given time, so you have to work with what you're given. The DP-on and MD-on rotations were exceptions as they first skipped a year, then only removed four sets - we had a LOT to choose from. Triumphant revolutionized many decks and made them even stronger than they were before; two examples I can think off the top of my head are Gyarados and Gigas. Gyarados can exploit Rescue Energy (which is a great addition to pretty much any deck actually) to avoid the need for Pokemon Rescue, Junk Arm lets them reuse things like Poke Turn to drop Crobats more often, as does Seeker (which works with Mesprit too). For Gigas, it got the advantage of being able to trigger Twins and Black Belt; since they normally play even/behind on prizes with their opponent, they can Sacrifice and heal the tank, use Twins or Black Belt for an amazing effect, and then knock out an opponent's Pokemon to even the prize trade - grats, you played Twins and your opponent still can't because you're even again.
You get the point. (Stormfront had a similar impact.)

I feel like in this format they're just printing more of the same stuff we've seen already - it's like a power creep almost. What makes it even worse, though, is that this format appears to be geared towards gigantic HP basics; that combined with the nerf of Rare Candy makes evolution now impractical, making a lot of decks that could have been played now unplayable. This wasn't the case in the past two rotations - if you wanted to play basics then you played SPs; they were really versatile and had a lot of different things they could do, and the HP was pretty decent. Stage 2s were also possible because of Rare Candy and BTS, bringing strong contenders like Machamp and Gengar into the fray - the former of which often has trouble getting up and running without some support. But now? The only strong Stage 2 Pokemon holding on right now is a giant magnet, with a flower a close second. It might not be long before they both vanish.
It's like they're trying to discourage creativity.

And by now my post has reached wall-of-text capacity. I'd go on more than this, but I don't feel like I need to at this time, since I believe I expressed myself well.
 
I played a crazy deck for Cities last weekend. I got donked twice before I even got to draw a card on Sunday, finishing 3-2 and missing cut on resistance even though I won every game I got a turn. And on Saturday, I faced my two worst matchups and misplayed to a third loss, finishing 3-3. Those finishes aren't too hot, but I'm still convinced it's the best deck in the format. The list is exclusive property of Team White, but pretty much the entire team is giving serious consideration to playing it for States.

There's definitely room for creativity, it's just that all of the obvious combos become meta right away. Usually the rogue decks are meta counters. As a general rule of thumb, any evolved card that doesn't have 130+HP is bad, although this could change with the release of the next set.
 
Celebi23 said:
I played a crazy deck for Cities last weekend. I got donked twice before I even got to draw a card on Sunday, finishing 3-2 and missing cut on resistance even though I won every game I got a turn. And on Saturday, I faced my two worst matchups and misplayed to a third loss, finishing 3-3. Those finishes aren't too hot, but I'm still convinced it's the best deck in the format. The list is exclusive property of Team White, but pretty much the entire team is giving serious consideration to playing it for States.

There's definitely room for creativity, it's just that all of the obvious combos become meta right away. Usually the rogue decks are meta counters. As a general rule of thumb, any evolved card that doesn't have 130+HP is bad, although this could change with the release of the next set.
Click to expand...

tl;dr: We have crazy rogue BDIF join our team to gain access to it and go 3-3 every tournament yay!

Nah, I'm just messing with you Celebi23.

You don't hear a lot about rogue decks this format, but that is because if a rogue deck were to make its way into public it would either be netdecked like crazy, making it not-rogue, or it would end up flopping. Either way, the details of exact strategies or cards rogue decks are often not revealed to the public because its really a lose-lose for the "roguishness" of the deck. They might be revealed to small groups like Team Rogue or Team White or whatever so they can be playtested more effectively, but because of netdeckers everywhere to a casual observer there would appear to be few to no rogues this format. This means if you want to make a good rogue you'll often have to do it yourself. There is potential for rogue in this format for sure though.
 
To DNA: And you certainly did. Wow. That was an excellent description for what's going on now. (Where did I say something about 200 cards?)

So basically, let me see if I understand this: It's not really a good time for variety because the strongest cards out right now are similar to stuff that's worked in the past, only even stronger. I thought that the nerf to Rare Candy was because the speed of the game had gotten out of control, to where whoever could evolve their Pokémon first was the one most likely to win. Instead, the game has gone to Basic Pokémon?

TCG is nowhere near as flexible as VG is, and it probably never will be - and that's just because playstyle is different. VG is nice in that it allows a lot more variety, even allowing you to make come-from-behind wins with your favorites (within reason); Porygon-Z isn't very often seen, but when it takes the field, it is a total monster, frequently taking out 2 or more before it falls itself. In the TCG? suspicious beam beta lolololololololol
Click to expand...

I see, so there's a lot more possibility in the Pokémon video game and that it's prety much impossible to figure it all out. And because of rotation, you have only about 100-200 rare cards, of which only a tiny portion would have high potential (and that's not even including top potential). Thus, the methodology is to see which cards are worth using and what they can be used with...though the latter seems like it could take a while.

There's definitely room for creativity, it's just that all of the obvious combos become meta right away. Usually the rogue decks are meta counters. As a general rule of thumb, any evolved card that doesn't have 130+HP is bad, although this could change with the release of the next set.
Click to expand...

Is this due to the nerfing of Rare Candy and of recent high-powered Basic Pokémon?

You don't hear a lot about rogue decks this format, but that is because if a rogue deck were to make its way into public it would either be netdecked like crazy, making it not-rogue, or it would end up flopping. Either way, the details of exact strategies or cards rogue decks are often not revealed to the public because its really a lose-lose for the "roguishness" of the deck. They might be revealed to small groups like Team Rogue or Team White or whatever so they can be playtested more effectively, but because of netdeckers everywhere to a casual observer there would appear to be few to no rogues this format. This means if you want to make a good rogue you'll often have to do it yourself. There is potential for rogue in this format for sure though.
Click to expand...

Hmm, all right then, I figured that if a rogue deck becomes useful, the Spikes use it and the Johnnies would have to turn to something else. In recent years though, I didn't really see much that was unexpected, and whatever people speculate will show up a lot is what shows up--though since these speculators are tournament-goers themselves and act on such speculations, it would become a self-fulfilling prophecy to some extent.

Every format, I've treated it as a kind of puzzle--what is there that could work that nobody had yet seen? I decided to bring this up now because I'm having a harder time for the 5th-generation sets, looking at the scans on this site, than I did in the past several years.
 
In regards to the 200-card comment: One of the cards in the Magic article is called "Battle of Wits" and it gives you a win condition if your deck has 200+ cards in it - and since I thought deckbuilding capped at 60, that's why I was confused.
moving on
~~~
So basically, let me see if I understand this: It's not really a good time for variety because the strongest cards out right now are similar to stuff that's worked in the past, only even stronger. I thought that the nerf to Rare Candy was because the speed of the game had gotten out of control, to where whoever could evolve their Pokémon first was the one most likely to win. Instead, the game has gone to Basic Pokémon?
Click to expand...
That's the reason they gave for Rare Candy's nerf, yes. Although the meta then was a bit fast-paced, it didn't have to be, actually - some decks, usually ones that involved Spiritomb, played very slowly and forced the opponent to do the same as well. Granted, we had stuff like BTS for evolution, but we were going to lose that next rotation anyway. However, the nerf of Rare Candy and the introduction of giant Basics I feel were independently done, BUT they're related. Why wait 2 turns to get a 130 HP Stage 2 out when you can drop a 130 HP Basic in no trouble? And then there are the EXs who go as high as 180. (You get the idea.) This meta has become more and more centered on giant Basics, unfortunately, and part of that is Rare Candy's nerfing - but it's mostly because PCL actually dared to print several Basics with ungodly-high HP. (I remember the days of Gigas. Sure he was a giant basic, but he was one of a kind too. Now they're everywhere.)

I see, so there's a lot more possibility in the Pokémon video game and that it's prety much impossible to figure it all out. And because of rotation, you have only about 100-200 rare cards, of which only a tiny portion would have high potential (and that's not even including top potential). Thus, the methodology is to see which cards are worth using and what they can be used with...though the latter seems like it could take a while.
Click to expand...
That's the gist of it, yes. The methodology isn't that hard to grasp, actually - first what you need to know is what Trainers are in the format (and what they do), and then when you are building a deck, find out what does and doesn't work with it. Sage's Training is an example. You draw 5 and discard 3, and although that's a potent effect, it doesn't work with every deck. Something like Cheren (draw 3) might suit better. (I myself usually like building decks where every card is important to me in some form or another. Consequently, when I started running Sage's Training, it hurt more than it helped.) Sage's Training, however, does work well with cards that take advantage of things in the discard pile (Tyram and Eelzone are both examples). And there are some cards that are universal, such as Catcher, Collector, and Communication, which do well in every deck.

Hmm, all right then, I figured that if a rogue deck becomes useful, the Spikes use it and the Johnnies would have to turn to something else. In recent years though, I didn't really see much that was unexpected, and whatever people speculate will show up a lot is what shows up--though since these speculators are tournament-goers themselves and act on such speculations, it would become a self-fulfilling prophecy to some extent.
Click to expand...
And that's exactly what happens. If a deck does well, it gets copied and netdecked. You've probably heard of google Cawthon - his secret deck took Worlds 2011 by storm, built specifically to counter the existing meta, and what happened? He placed 2nd in the Masters Division. His deck, later known as "The Truth", has since been played by people everywhere. It had HoPe as a rough equivalent last format - it was a deck built to counter the meta it was in, but after it appeared in the limelight, that doesn't keep the Spikes from using the list and playing it. (At every tournament I go to, out of the few people who play google.dek, they topcut consistently.)

Every format, I've treated it as a kind of puzzle--what is there that could work that nobody had yet seen? I decided to bring this up now because I'm having a harder time for the 5th-generation sets, looking at the scans on this site, than I did in the past several years.
Click to expand...
You and I think pretty similarly. Granted, if I've built a deck, chances are that at least a few people have gone before me with that theme, but I try to tweak it from there to do well. But most of the time, I try to pick a deck that nobody else plays - and that nobody else expects. For example, normally I run a Lost World build, interesting in the fact that it likes taking prizes - right now I'm taking a break from that and running the Victini that does 120 - and I'm not using Vileplume in my list either. It's definitely not expected, but it has a definite purpose - it can OHKO Tao Dragons. And no one ever sees it coming.

Is there anything I haven't said that you think I should have covered in response to your questions? If so, let me know.
 
The original thing I was wondering is if there's any ground that the people who scavenge for possible deck ideas hadn't yet seen, and yeah, it's already been answered in the affirmative. I wasn't actually aware that the card game had moved into mostly ground it's already covered, which explains why I'm having fewer ideas that interest me than normal. I was at my happiest making new decks in the late 3rd generation, since we had all sorts of weird stuff going on with React Energy, Delta Species, Holon Circle, and all that. I wasn't able to break into the middle ranks as consistently as I do now (I was usually around the bottom quarter), but I had a lot of fun.

In a way, this is like the absolute earliest days of the TCG, huh? Basic Pokémon were the way to go competitively during then, with evolved Pokémon being way too slow and too Energy-intensive.

What astounds me is that some people look at a card and can immediately come up with every (or nearly every) card that could possibly go with it, no matter how obscure. It's like they have every card memorized by heart.

Something else I also realized: The Pokémon video games have more environments than just single battles whereas the Pokémon TCG is almost entirely single battles with anything else being a novelty. In the video games, anything but single battling is largely untested (though double battling seems to be on the rise, what with VGCs encouraging it), and what works in one environment rarely works in all of the other three.
 
Please don't listen to the above my friend is also one for creativity, he took 2 of the most useless ultra rares available, and made them into an amazing deck that my area struggled to beat, why because everyone disregarded them as useless, they did not bother to think to use them together. People now use one of them frequently (electrode Prime) and the other is still berated as useless as it is not mainstream (lugia Legend) its because of people liek you and him that make this game interesting to play. I myself am testing a vaguely rogue deck. SlugmaDONK (slugma + reshiram).
 
Ophie said:
What astounds me is that some people look at a card and can immediately come up with every (or nearly every) card that could possibly go with it, no matter how obscure. It's like they have every card memorized by heart.
Click to expand...

Well, that's almost right. Most avid players tend to memorize any cards that could conceivably be good; which, to be honest, isn't a whole lot right now, particularly with so few sets in-format. The low amount of usable cards has contributed to the lack of variance in the metagame and even with rogue options, but hopefully that'll start to sort itself out as we get more sets in-format.

Next format we'll lose some pretty powerful stuff (assuming there'll be a BW-on rotation)– Vileplume, Magnezone Prime, Electrode Prime, and some staple T/S/S– Collector, Rare Candy (though that will almost definitely be reprinted by then), Sage's Training, Twins, Black Belt. There'll be (hopefully) more options overall as to deck-building, as we probably won't have cards (or as many cards) that have to be at least 3-ofs (such as Collector), so there will be more options there as well as with Pokémon lines. We're losing a lot of the stuff that's forcing the power creep to keep going at the same rate, so we'll just have to wait and see what happens.
 
That still astounds me--in the Pokémon video games, I see even experienced players stumble on something that's unfamiliar. Like how my earliest Diamond-version team has Skuntank in it (I like skunks, if you couldn't tell by my avatar); I had people try to attack it with Fighting attacks when others would be more efficient because, at that time, they thought it was a Normal-type.

What do these guys do to memorize the cards? Is there some sort of mental organization system? What are the requirements a card has to have to get their attention?
 
Ophie said:
That still astounds me--in the Pokémon video games, I see even experienced players stumble on something that's unfamiliar. Like how my earliest Diamond-version team has Skuntank in it (I like skunks, if you couldn't tell by my avatar); I had people try to attack it with Fighting attacks when others would be more efficient because, at that time, they thought it was a Normal-type.

What do these guys do to memorize the cards? Is there some sort of mental organization system? What are the requirements a card has to have to get their attention?
Click to expand...
This is why I try to memorize type matchups. Things aren't often what I think they are, and even now I make stupid misplays against Skuntank because I forget they're pretty speedy AND they pack Flamethrower. This, in turn, makes Ferrothorn very sad.

As for card memorization? A lot of the competitive TCG base tries to keep up with cards as they are being released - so when scans get printed on PB, we look over every single last one of them. Things that we usually look for are good HP, powerful attacks with as little cost as possible (usually consistency is what we're looking for, so even though Golurk NV's Hurricane Punch can hit up to 200, is only a Stage 1, AND has 130 HP, the thing is that Terrakion exists, which is much more consistent - but that won't stop me from running Golurk one day).

This usually determines what players think is good and what isn't. Some cards do have potential, yes, but one thing we take into account is how they stack up to the current meta. Right now, Eelzone is the big thing, and not a lot of things can stand up to that. There are lesser things as well so we try to see how they fare against them...and so on. I think you get the idea (if you don't, tell me and I'll try to explain it better).

This is usually why there are so few decks to pick from in the TCG - not a lot of things can hold their own against most of the popular decks of the day.
 
Ophie said:
That still astounds me--in the Pokémon video games, I see even experienced players stumble on something that's unfamiliar. Like how my earliest Diamond-version team has Skuntank in it (I like skunks, if you couldn't tell by my avatar); I had people try to attack it with Fighting attacks when others would be more efficient because, at that time, they thought it was a Normal-type.

What do these guys do to memorize the cards? Is there some sort of mental organization system? What are the requirements a card has to have to get their attention?
Click to expand...

There's nothing special about it! It's all comes from experience and having discussions about it. I was staggered at the amount of different strategies (quantity, and complexity), but after a week of seeing it all and thinking about it all, it's all second nature at this point.

Most of the cards that get released are just not optimal. Either they don't have enough life, an attack that doesn't do enough damage per energy, or a poke-power / ability that won't help you out too much. It becomes very easy to remember the ones that are better!

If you were to post a card here, it would take probably 10 seconds to deem it worthwhile of theorycrafting! Some don't even take 5.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top