Spoken like a true 9-year-old.
Discussion Opinion on GX Pokémon (GX VS. EX)
- Thread starter Robin Aisaga
- Start date
They are overused and kind of dumb.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however misinformed. They do require skill. Look at the top competitors' deck lists and all of them, with the exception of Greninja Break, use EX/GX Pokémon. I can also guarantee that no 8 year olds are "shredding" actual experienced players with the GX boxes they buy at Target and Walmart.
Idk whenever I go into online and I see GX Cards in matches, especially the super annoying ones like gumshoos i just leave because I'm not dealing with it.
I play only with people who do not use them.
I play only with people who do not use them.
Well then you're severely limiting yourself and your enjoyment of the game. GXs aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
I just try to avoid them, Because they are just unfair.
Also soon It won't be a problem because I bought a mega mewtwo y EX and a zekrom ex, mega lucario secret rare ex and a lucario ex.
Online eliminating the issue i'm trying to get groudon ex for my primal groudon ex i pulled or a mega mewtwo to get with my mewtwo ex.
Also soon It won't be a problem because I bought a mega mewtwo y EX and a zekrom ex, mega lucario secret rare ex and a lucario ex.
Online eliminating the issue i'm trying to get groudon ex for my primal groudon ex i pulled or a mega mewtwo to get with my mewtwo ex.
GX cards are often very powerful, you'll find most Stage 2 GX cards will have 230-250 HP, which is completely fair considering how much evolution they have to do to get to that stage. If anything EX cards are bit more unfair, since they're all basic (unless they're mega) and can be played right from your hand and some even are battle ready turn 1. A lot of GX cards (most iirc) can not be played in this way. Alolan Ninetales, Decidueye, Sylveon, etc.
Isn't Volc the #1 deck right now? Volc is an EX :/
Why on earth are you playing the game then? If you're going to just quit a match at the sight of an annoying GX then you're not really a competitive player. You need to suck it up an deal with it, or just quit altogether. You shouldn't be all choosy about who you face or the game loses it's point.
GX cards are not necessarily unfair in a format where they're designed to rule, and are meant to be more powerful than regular cards.
Well whats the point if GX cards just 1 shot all the ex cards and there is no competition really?
Overall I don't really have a giant problem with their addition its just they can be annoying sometimes.
Also just to balance it, Whenever we play tournaments with our real cards some GXes are banned from use.
Some are allowed but example: gumshoos is banned.
Also just to balance it, Whenever we play tournaments with our real cards some GXes are banned from use.
Some are allowed but example: gumshoos is banned.
I still will continue to play but once I get groudon ex for online to use my primal i pulled online or get a mewtwo mega for my mewtwo ex online the GX cards will be no more of a problem because I'll have cards that can completely stomp on them.
*sigh* What are you talking about? GX don't always one shot, a lot them have an attack that deals about 90-120 damage. That doesn't knock out many of them unless they are low HP or affected by a Weakness. Sure in this Choice Band format a lot of things are possible but still.
Cards regardless of what their special feature is can be annoying, that has never been and will never be exclusive to GX cards.
And who do you play these tournaments with? I doubt this would be at a league. Gumshoos isn't even that annoying to face, and it's GX attack isn't that annoying. It'll knock out one mon then they can't use another GX attack in the game. Not that big a deal.
It kinda sounds like you don't have any GX cards of your own. You really should try using them before you judge them. Buy some codes, trade for some, etc. Build a deck around one you like and run it.
I really like GX and favour their design over EX because the GX still matter for evolution lines. Personally I am a huge fan of the evolution line concept Pokemon has always brought and I believe it to be one of it's unique traits as a cardgame. As such I also hope that GX will be the new EX and we will finally stop seeing every Pokemon show up as a EX basic aswell.
One of the reasons as to why I like evolution lines is because it reflects the Nintendo game and actually allows for a sub-game during the early stages that revolves around 'control (card search)', aggro (fast attacks for medium damage) and sometimes combo (locks). Where any format with EX attackers usually boils down to a larger form of aggro. In my experience formats with many EX also are formats who allow for less combo's to happen. Some attacks of EX Pokemon still emulate this but all it does in reality is filter sets down to many irrelevant cards.
In conclusion, I really like where the Sun and Moon sets are going. We see strong GX attackers and non-GX with relevant abilities, sometimes even extremely relevant! I really hope that this will continue and if I had the option to design Pokemon cards I would actually continue the path where GX are the aggressors and non-GX are the technical cards with typical great Pokemon powers. Because if you stack them on top of each other then by default those cards will render many others irrelevant (example Tapu Lele GX vs many other semi-draw engines).
One of the reasons as to why I like evolution lines is because it reflects the Nintendo game and actually allows for a sub-game during the early stages that revolves around 'control (card search)', aggro (fast attacks for medium damage) and sometimes combo (locks). Where any format with EX attackers usually boils down to a larger form of aggro. In my experience formats with many EX also are formats who allow for less combo's to happen. Some attacks of EX Pokemon still emulate this but all it does in reality is filter sets down to many irrelevant cards.
In conclusion, I really like where the Sun and Moon sets are going. We see strong GX attackers and non-GX with relevant abilities, sometimes even extremely relevant! I really hope that this will continue and if I had the option to design Pokemon cards I would actually continue the path where GX are the aggressors and non-GX are the technical cards with typical great Pokemon powers. Because if you stack them on top of each other then by default those cards will render many others irrelevant (example Tapu Lele GX vs many other semi-draw engines).
@JDA
You bring up some good points, but I'd like to present some counter arguments. This gets onto a very long spiel of mine, so I'll put it in Spoiler tags. I keep meaning to write it up as an article, but it is easier in a back-and-forth format where I can fix typos, answer questions, etc.
You bring up some good points, but I'd like to present some counter arguments. This gets onto a very long spiel of mine, so I'll put it in Spoiler tags. I keep meaning to write it up as an article, but it is easier in a back-and-forth format where I can fix typos, answer questions, etc.
From when Pokémon-EX were introduced (BW: Next Destinies) until the next-to-last BW-era set (BW: Plasma Blast), the Pokémon-EX mechanic was restricted to what we refer to as Legendary Pokémon. In the video games, these Pokémon often have higher stats (or overall stat totals) than other Pokémon, which means they ought to be more powerful than everything else. However, that causes balance issues; being a Pokémon-EX can fix that by causing the more potent Pokémon to be worth an additional Prize when KO'd. I specify "can fix" because the powers-that-be don't seem to share our views on balance. With BW: Legendary Treasures we got our first Pokémon-EX that were not Legendary Pokémon, then in the XY-era, Pokémon-EX were used for the Mega Evolution mechanic, so we got more that weren't Legendaries.
Some Pokémon-EX were too potent or "broken", but it wasn't just because they were Pokémon-EX. Instead, it was the game's pacing issues. This is a problem because sooner or later? I expect the powers-that-be to mess up Pokémon-GX in the same way? Why? They've done it before, basically. Pokémon-ex are a mechanic that was introduced in the Gen III sets. Adjusting for power creep and changes in general game mechanics, the only real difference between Pokémon-ex and Pokémon-GX is the GX-attack. They were introduced at a time when Evolutions were dominant but only because Basics had been dominant the first few years of the game and the designers over-corrected. Non-Evolving Basics were badly nerfed. If that sounds like a good idea, ask yourself "What about the people whose favorite Pokémon are Basics?"
I think all fully Evolved Pokémon need to be on mostly even footing with each other. The designers have repeatedly tried to do this by focusing on penalizing non-Evolving Basics and/or boosting fully Evolved Pokémon. That doesn't work. Instead of trying to make different outputs somehow balanced, what tends to work in the few instances where it happens, is making the lower Stages of the Evolution line useful as more than stepping stones. Evolving Basic and Evolving Stage 1 cards need to do something, preferably something that supports the entire line (so not the Night March approach), making them comparable to whatever extra cards you'll have room for when running a non-Evolving Basic Pokémon instead of a Stage 1 or Stage 2 (I'm not going to worry about other Stages, at the moment).
"Front-loading" HP scores is another thing; in the video games, you control your pace of advancement, so you can grind before facing stronger opposition. That makes their often pitiful HP scores not a serious issue. In the TCG, it doesn't make sense to pit the equivalent of a Lv.5 starter against the equivalent of a Lv.100 Legendary. XP So if the Stage 2 has 150 HP, instead of just 60 HP and 90 HP for the Basic and Stage 1 parts of the Evolution line, jump the Basic to 100 HP and the Stage 1 to 120 or 130. Granted, I think HP scores across the board need to be increased; the Hit Points of Pokémon from the video games range 1 to over 700 HP, so why force the TCG to work with just 30 to 250 (printed) HP? Since we need to stick to units of 10, that means we really have an effective 3 to 25 HP to work with... so when it comes to designing cards, it is often hard to justify doing less damage or having less HP for all but the strongest effects.
Finally, another aspect of the problem that is already a threat to Pokémon-GX; pacing. Right now, the only reason this isn't one of the fastest Standard Formats we've ever known is that they implemented a "No attacking first turn." rule. That isn't how it was when the game began, and while we had various other first turn rules over the years, you usually could still attack. In fact, as the designers focused on restricting Trainer usage (whether all or just certain subclasses), attacks to aid in setting up were a big part of some of those older formats... even if you weren't going first. The problem isn't with being able to attack first turn, but the attacks being printed on the cards. Evolutions shouldn't have shortcuts to hit the field first turn, and Basic Pokémon shouldn't have attacks capable of doing a lot of damage, let alone scoring OHKO's. I'd actually say they ought to not have damaging attacks at all, to play it safe, since combos happen. Next, the designers need to quick making "all-in-one" Basics. It isn't that a Basic was a Pokémon-EX that was a problem, or even them having good HP; it was that they could hit hard, hit fast, and your opening attacker doubled as your main attacker, and (maybe) also had an effect that made them a good Bench-sitter. If you main attacker is a lousy opener, then non-Evolving Basic Pokémon either have to accept sitting there and doing nothing for a turn or two or they need to run a different Basic Pokémon to serve as an opener.
Combined with making Evolving Basics and Evolving Stage 1 Pokémon better, these changes mitigate the card and speed advantage of non-Evolving Basic Pokémon versus fully Evolved Stage 1 and Stage 2 Pokémon... even if we allow those non-Evolving Basic Pokémon to have comparable stats and effects to the fully Evolved Stage 1 and Stage 2 Pokémon! The only places Stage of Evolution ought to matter for an effect is when said effect is specifically broken or rendered useless by appearing on a particular Stage. So if [insert effect] breaks a deck by hitting the field T1, it doesn't belong on a Basic, while if it is pointless (like most setup attacks) showing up on an Evolution, it only should be seen on Basics (assuming it isn't broken there XP).
Thank you for reading, as I realize this was very long.
Some Pokémon-EX were too potent or "broken", but it wasn't just because they were Pokémon-EX. Instead, it was the game's pacing issues. This is a problem because sooner or later? I expect the powers-that-be to mess up Pokémon-GX in the same way? Why? They've done it before, basically. Pokémon-ex are a mechanic that was introduced in the Gen III sets. Adjusting for power creep and changes in general game mechanics, the only real difference between Pokémon-ex and Pokémon-GX is the GX-attack. They were introduced at a time when Evolutions were dominant but only because Basics had been dominant the first few years of the game and the designers over-corrected. Non-Evolving Basics were badly nerfed. If that sounds like a good idea, ask yourself "What about the people whose favorite Pokémon are Basics?"
I think all fully Evolved Pokémon need to be on mostly even footing with each other. The designers have repeatedly tried to do this by focusing on penalizing non-Evolving Basics and/or boosting fully Evolved Pokémon. That doesn't work. Instead of trying to make different outputs somehow balanced, what tends to work in the few instances where it happens, is making the lower Stages of the Evolution line useful as more than stepping stones. Evolving Basic and Evolving Stage 1 cards need to do something, preferably something that supports the entire line (so not the Night March approach), making them comparable to whatever extra cards you'll have room for when running a non-Evolving Basic Pokémon instead of a Stage 1 or Stage 2 (I'm not going to worry about other Stages, at the moment).
"Front-loading" HP scores is another thing; in the video games, you control your pace of advancement, so you can grind before facing stronger opposition. That makes their often pitiful HP scores not a serious issue. In the TCG, it doesn't make sense to pit the equivalent of a Lv.5 starter against the equivalent of a Lv.100 Legendary. XP So if the Stage 2 has 150 HP, instead of just 60 HP and 90 HP for the Basic and Stage 1 parts of the Evolution line, jump the Basic to 100 HP and the Stage 1 to 120 or 130. Granted, I think HP scores across the board need to be increased; the Hit Points of Pokémon from the video games range 1 to over 700 HP, so why force the TCG to work with just 30 to 250 (printed) HP? Since we need to stick to units of 10, that means we really have an effective 3 to 25 HP to work with... so when it comes to designing cards, it is often hard to justify doing less damage or having less HP for all but the strongest effects.
Finally, another aspect of the problem that is already a threat to Pokémon-GX; pacing. Right now, the only reason this isn't one of the fastest Standard Formats we've ever known is that they implemented a "No attacking first turn." rule. That isn't how it was when the game began, and while we had various other first turn rules over the years, you usually could still attack. In fact, as the designers focused on restricting Trainer usage (whether all or just certain subclasses), attacks to aid in setting up were a big part of some of those older formats... even if you weren't going first. The problem isn't with being able to attack first turn, but the attacks being printed on the cards. Evolutions shouldn't have shortcuts to hit the field first turn, and Basic Pokémon shouldn't have attacks capable of doing a lot of damage, let alone scoring OHKO's. I'd actually say they ought to not have damaging attacks at all, to play it safe, since combos happen. Next, the designers need to quick making "all-in-one" Basics. It isn't that a Basic was a Pokémon-EX that was a problem, or even them having good HP; it was that they could hit hard, hit fast, and your opening attacker doubled as your main attacker, and (maybe) also had an effect that made them a good Bench-sitter. If you main attacker is a lousy opener, then non-Evolving Basic Pokémon either have to accept sitting there and doing nothing for a turn or two or they need to run a different Basic Pokémon to serve as an opener.
Combined with making Evolving Basics and Evolving Stage 1 Pokémon better, these changes mitigate the card and speed advantage of non-Evolving Basic Pokémon versus fully Evolved Stage 1 and Stage 2 Pokémon... even if we allow those non-Evolving Basic Pokémon to have comparable stats and effects to the fully Evolved Stage 1 and Stage 2 Pokémon! The only places Stage of Evolution ought to matter for an effect is when said effect is specifically broken or rendered useless by appearing on a particular Stage. So if [insert effect] breaks a deck by hitting the field T1, it doesn't belong on a Basic, while if it is pointless (like most setup attacks) showing up on an Evolution, it only should be seen on Basics (assuming it isn't broken there XP).
Thank you for reading, as I realize this was very long.
What kind of tournaments are you playing where GX's are banned? Definitely not playing standard that's for sure, because that's the entire meta. Also I'm surprised anyone else agreed to play in such tournaments as your pool of decks is pretty small.
Congrats, you were inacapable of beating them, so you just built a pure counter deck. I actually play a Greninja BREAK deck, so I definitely understand what it feels like to face a GX deck and not run any yourself. That being said, what your doing doesn't seem like a very good approach to a game where resilience is often the difference between a win and a loss.
As it has been said above you're entitled to your own opinion and approach, but I recommend you change your habits if you ever wanna play competitively.
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Gumshoos is one of the weakest GXs... Why would it banned... from anything?
It sounds like you're new to the game so I'll take that into account with my response.
I remember being a beginner and playing against my buddy's Flareon EX deck with a really crappy modified theme deck. I would get stomped every game and I had similar thoughts about EXs back then to how you feel about GXs now. Looking back on it, his Flareon EX deck wasn't even that good, but to a new player that was learning the game and didn't have a lot of cards, it seemed overpowered and unfair. As I kept playing and collecting better cards, I started to get a better feel for the game and learned how to build better decks. It sounds like you just need to keep playing. Even if you lose, keep playing. No one is going to play a tournament where you want to ban certain cards just because you don't have a solid understanding of the game.
Watch competitive deck building videos on YouTube. There's tons of channels out there that upload multiple videos a week detailing current competitive decks. There are even some that build competitive budget decks that don't use EXs or GXs at all. The more you play and learn, the more you'll see that your argument is invalid.
Trust me, having big EX cards isn't going to just automatically win you games. Honestly, this era has been quite a bit more balanced and fleshed out than others with a plethora of viable decks coming out every time a new set drops. And, if you think that its the big ultra rares meaning an insta-win, look at 2015-2016. Night March and Vespiquen, Greninja BREAK, etc. basically dominated the format. What was winning games wasn't huge EX cards, it was deadly combinations of cards such as Forest of Giant Plants, Battle Compressor, and any Pokemon who could utilize these, or other powerful combinations. After that it went to cards like M Mewtwo, M Scizor, Rayquaza, Xerneas, and slowly but surely it's a mix of things like GX cards, Volcanion, EX cards, etc. If it were unfair it would be either ruling the format with no counters, or be banned which is how cards like Shiftry(before the forest ban) got banned. What you have to realize is that it's not the GX card's fault, it's the fact that you have to learn how to counter and play against decks in the current format. Playtesting, seeing how it works against one another. Forming strategies to try and come out victorious against a plethora of decks in the format. Everything can be countered some way or another. You can even make rogue decks to counter things, such as what won worlds last year, the M Audino deck which countered most of the top threats in the metagame at that time. The trick is, like Ive said, is learning how to counter certain threats.
Thanks for the in depth thoughts, in respect to the time you put into this I'll just give a vision on this, note that I do not dissagree on all points or in many cases at all.
Initially the EX showed up as non-Legendary Pokemon aswell, if anything I would say they where an homage to the Base set's most popular Basic Pokemon. https://pkmncards.com/?s=e:ruby-sapphire&display=scan&sort=number As we both know these EX-es are exactly what made up Pokemon in the initial years. Because they where so potent then I believe that the designers of Pokemon tcg decided to work in a disadvantage for such potential. Being the two prices they give up instead of one. Now initially the design team actually went for a more under-powered approach but this would indeed change over the course of sets and years.
So while they indeed returned (and sometimes went away again) in many cases we can see the power creep doing it's job more as EX-es filling in a particular narrative purpose. Sometimes they do have that purpose, sometimes they don't.
What I agree with is how GX will not change the format EX has brought in terms of being the key cards for the end stages of the game. However what I do think is very important to mention is the massive difference in the way they speed up the game. With this I mean that evolution lines will thake you 2-3 turns in order to set up, this never applies for Basic Pokemon. The difference between having that 2-3 turns of delay to not having it is massive, as setting up GX allows you to find awnsers to it over multiple turns, where this never was the case for (Basic) EX, you either had your set up ready aswell or snowballed (faster) into defeat or victory. To date we can still find this example in the Volcanion EX deck.
For me HP and attack power go hand in hand and we see that across the game aswell. Where before 20 damage for a single energy was a lot, now it means little to nothing. So I am okay with HP being high and low. What I think would be interesting as another concept is to have non-EX and GX Pokemon continue with more relevant attacks and powers, that are not perse aggro. So far we see Sun and Moon testing that out and I hope it's here to stay. Ideally I find that Stage 1 and 2 non-EX and GX have something relevant to do aswell instead of being just an inferior Pokemon overall. Powers like Venesaur or Machoke are displaying are excellent.
I believe we're heading to a place where HP and attacks will continue to rise, however I also feel it's much easier to balance this on Evolutions than it ever was with the basic EX. For years formats with basic EX have been dominated by basic EX. Now the format will indeed be dominated by Evolutions but as before I think this is a better representation what the game is about. Sure we have an aggro stop on the first turn but if we're departing from basic EX I would not be suprised seing the return of attacking turn 1 again. The mayor problematic cards for such decks are either rotating out or changing. Examples being:
- Changed Rare Candy does not allow for super fast set ups
- Forest of Giant Plants and basic stoppers have been banned from Expanded (which could be an indication that Pokemon design doesnt perse want to slow down the game but also not speed up locks and strong attackers)
- Typical supporters have been much more focused around disrupting hands and fast set ups (N), givig you the cards required to play your regular evolution game (Sycamore etc) and much less directly focused on putting out Pokemon from the deck to evolve directly and do other fast things... We really only have one option for that and it's rarely played because Wally is good but perfect for a Supporter as opposed to regular Trainer.
- In addition we're receiving a lot of cards again who are designed to switch but also disrupt your own set up, such as Guzma and Escape Rope.
To me this means the design team wants to slow the game down, something I agree with because I believe it makes the game more interesting as much more fast paced other cardgames.
Cheers,
I agree with you on the winning cards, the thing is, this was the responce of the then design team to keep other cards relevant. Something they do not have to do anymore if every card and evolution line is now rewarded by the option of running a relevant GX variant and non-GX variant.
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Everything certainly can be countered the issue the design team has faced multiple times however is that the only relevant counter to basic EX is speading up other Evolution lines or removing the relevancy of basic Pokemon as a whole.
Because EX where designed in such "restrictive" way there are only a few routes to go when you want to contain them those routes, as can be seen by the ban list, have not worked out as intended.
To me GX or EX relevancy is about speed. To me the prime reason as to why GX are better designed and balanced has to do with the time you get to counter. Pokemon TCG is a game which requires long set ups at it's core (you cannot evolve one or twice during the same turn). This means that all cards from a design perspective should respect that core rule. EX never did, GX do.