Oranguru, Shaymin-EX, Sableye, and Energy Grace Milotic Banned in the Expanded Format!

[snoopy369]

I concur.

I will add that it is probably time to come up with a catch-all heading for multi-Prize Pokémon. A blanket errata for all past effects - counters or support - which reference Pokémon-EX, Pokémon-GX, and/or Pokémon V with the new, unifying term. Maybe it needs to actually be something that applies to more than just multi-Prize Pokémon, but I don't think any of the "modern" specialty gimmicks have been strong enough e.g. Pokémon BREAK weren't the powerhouses that Lv.X cards were. Even if there's no errata being issued, at the very least, future cards would use the terminology to avoid this issue.

I think leaving off EXs is sometimes intentional. EXs are for the most part underpowered, and realistically many single-prized Pokémon are now superior to EXs. I think it's fine to leave it how it is - but only if you are careful to remove the dangerous cards (like Milotic) *going forward*.

Personally, I dislike Expanded, and in part dislike it because it's *too big*. Smaller expanded would fix some of these issues, and at that point it might make more sense to do what you say and make it generic. But as it stands now, I think it's intentional that it's not generic.

 

[snoopy369]

Quite frankly, this just sounds like the Expanded format is a bit too big. I understand why certain cards would say "EX and GX" or "GX and V" when the previous ultra rares were still in the Standard format. It makes sense to cover both. And when looking at a card like Milotic, it makes sense that it only excluded EX's at the time and why this is a bit broken now. But to have all of these cards from the past 9--going on 10--years in one format? These issues are bound to keep happening. This might just be my lack of actual experience playing in the Expanded format, but why not change it to Sun & Moon and on at this point? (Or I suppose going forward with the 2021-2022 format.)

Agree it's too big. I do think that SUM-on might be a bit "small" though; Expanded is interesting because of its size, to some extent - it's just a bit *too* big right now. Cutting out B&W I think is reasonable, but cut out XY and you just have "slightly bigger standard" instead of a truly different format.

Now, if they wait until 2022-2023, by which point we'll be nearly in (whatever Gen9 is called), I'd consider SUM-on reasonable. A fair number of people have suggested that the Expanded rotation should be 3 major sets - meaning, during SUM it was BW+XY+SUM, during SSH it would be XY+SUM+SS, etc.; that seems like a reasonable balance, and means you have cards up to about 8-9 years old in the format.

 

[o0Flint0o]

"Never" is a universal term.

By your argument, you're saying they'll never and have never done errata.

Pokemon Catcher was OP at first. Then errata with the Flip a Coin stipulation.

Mic drop boom lmfao

Well in Pokemon Catcher's case, it was also reprinted in XY sets and remained legal in standard throughout.

I think what they were referring to was errata'ing an out-of-standard card that will likely not be reprinted. TCPI seems to want to avoid that, and typically only gives errata-type updates to such cards if they had a typo or had printing on the card that did not reflect the original intention of the card. (Shaymin's original intention was not a once-per-turn ability.)

I would also assume those types of errata's occur only while they are still printing the card, but I can't definitively say that since I wasn't playing the game at the times they did most of them.

 

[cardgjammer]

Agree it's too big. I do think that SUM-on might be a bit "small" though; Expanded is interesting because of its size, to some extent - it's just a bit *too* big right now. Cutting out B&W I think is reasonable, but cut out XY and you just have "slightly bigger standard" instead of a truly different format.

Now, if they wait until 2022-2023, by which point we'll be nearly in (whatever Gen9 is called), I'd consider SUM-on reasonable. A fair number of people have suggested that the Expanded rotation should be 3 major sets - meaning, during SUM it was BW+XY+SUM, during SSH it would be XY+SUM+SS, etc.; that seems like a reasonable balance, and means you have cards up to about 8-9 years old in the format.

Good point:

Next rotation, the last of the SUM sets are expected to get rotated out, but if Expanded goes unchanged even then, with BW cards not being manufactured anymore officially in physical form, I wonder if they need to upgrade their known card infrastructure to ensure no card combo goes past the radar...

If they keep Expanded as a format that has no rotations, regardless of the age of some of the cards, then players could play with the same old deck that wins every time, and win with that deck year after year after year, which would be boring...

^ So next rotation, they might need a third format for the BW cards, and/or a Legacy restructuring from HGSS-LTR to BW-LTR, and maybe halting sales of BW-era theme decks, but keeping the packs intact, in terms of the PTCGO in-app store...

In short:

Too big = Too much for the R&D department to monitor...

 

[hervul]

If only they had a collective name for “multiple prize” Pokémon instead of calling them Ex, GX, V, etc, a lot of these cards wouldn’t be banned.

 

[Pone]

I think leaving off EXs is sometimes intentional. EXs are for the most part underpowered, and realistically many single-prized Pokémon are now superior to EXs. I think it's fine to leave it how it is - but only if you are careful to remove the dangerous cards (like Milotic) *going forward*.

Personally, I dislike Expanded, and in part dislike it because it's *too big*. Smaller expanded would fix some of these issues, and at that point it might make more sense to do what you say and make it generic. But as it stands now, I think it's intentional that it's not generic.

Strong disagree with an Expanded Rotation unless they reintroduce enough of those mechanics back into the new format. Cards like Battle Compressor or PLB Cradily are the last bastions of interest I have in these cards as a game rather than just something to collect.

It's not that Expanded is too big. There are other successful card games that have been going on even longer and don't rotate at all. The problem is power creep, dramatic lack of foresight, and recycling the same old tired mechanics with different titles. V cards are literally EXes with a different name and a sickening amount of power increase to keep up with the rising power levels across the board. They could have easily avoided this debacle by using the existing name.

As for a catch-all term that includes all multiprize Pokémon, I do think it is very much needed. Whether it's intentional or not for some cards to leave off EXes (I think that's just because they were never in Standard at the same time as V cards and they only want to look like they care about Expanded), some very much should have had that indicator from the get-go. "Special Pokémon" is very in-keeping with the terminology of the card game and describes these cards perfectly.

 

[Otaku]

"Special Pokémon" is very in-keeping with the terminology of the card game and describes these cards perfectly.

I appreciate the thought, but "Special Pokémon" is probably not a good choice. Why?

• Special could easily include Prism Star Pokémon, Pokémon BREAK, maybe even Ultra Beasts. You know, any specialty mechanics.
• Multi-Prize Pokémon is a bit cumbersome, but not too bad compared to what is already on cross-generation effects.
• What if they introduce a powerful new mechanic that needs countering but does not involve giving up extra Prizes?
• Sometimes I get annoyed with basic Energy versus Basic Pokémon. Now we'll have Special Energy and Special Pokémon.

 

[Skeleton Liar]

Agree it's too big. I do think that SUM-on might be a bit "small" though; Expanded is interesting because of its size, to some extent - it's just a bit *too* big right now. Cutting out B&W I think is reasonable, but cut out XY and you just have "slightly bigger standard" instead of a truly different format.

Now, if they wait until 2022-2023, by which point we'll be nearly in (whatever Gen9 is called), I'd consider SUM-on reasonable. A fair number of people have suggested that the Expanded rotation should be 3 major sets - meaning, during SUM it was BW+XY+SUM, during SSH it would be XY+SUM+SS, etc.; that seems like a reasonable balance, and means you have cards up to about 8-9 years old in the format.

Also agreed that Sun & Moon and on is sort of small, and it doesn't really feel "expanded" when it was simply the Standard format just over a year ago. I only mentioned removing BW and XY sets because they both have EX's. But I like the idea that you mentioned of having three generations in Expanded.

It's not that Expanded is too big. There are other successful card games that have been going on even longer and don't rotate at all. The problem is power creep, dramatic lack of foresight, and recycling the same old tired mechanics with different titles. V cards are literally EXes with a different name and a sickening amount of power increase to keep up with the rising power levels across the board. They could have easily avoided this debacle by using the existing name.

THIS. IN BOLD. But because of that lack of foresight, that's why Expanded feels too big. Had there been better planning beforehand and currently, the amount of cards that become broken in Expanded wouldn't be as much of an issue, if at all.

 

[Pone]

I appreciate the thought, but "Special Pokémon" is probably not a good choice. Why?

• Special could easily include Prism Star Pokémon, Pokémon BREAK, maybe even Ultra Beasts. You know, any specialty mechanics.
• Multi-Prize Pokémon is a bit cumbersome, but not too bad compared to what is already on cross-generation effects.
• What if they introduce a powerful new mechanic that needs countering but does not involve giving up extra Prizes?
• Sometimes I get annoyed with basic Energy versus Basic Pokémon. Now we'll have Special Energy and Special Pokémon.

The term would apply to whatever they assign to it. In my scenario it applies retroactively to any card that is worth 2 or more prizes, and going forward it would apply to any card that has "Special Pokémon" written on the card somewhere. I imagine it would be in its own little tag area like the Ultra Beasts label. I believe multiprize would be too ambiguous for TPCi as it would become a very annoying case-by-case basis for cards like Guzzlord CEC or Whimsicott GRI that take extra prizes for a knockout or for cases such as Life Dew or Shedinja LOT where a GX or whatever suddenly counts as a single-prize Pokémon.

For the last point, I don't know where I'm supposed to go with that. I've never heard of someone being annoyed by the two kinds of energy being separated. The ability to be more specific about things is never a bad thing and we are seeing firsthand the effects of not being able to use an umbrella term for an array of gimmicks.

 

[Flygonite]

"Never" is a universal term.

By your argument, you're saying they'll never and have never done errata.

Pokemon Catcher was OP at first. Then errata with the Flip a Coin stipulation.

Mic drop boom lmfao

How many years does that errata have. Keep your "mic drop". The format that originated that choice is long dead, and Catcher is the only card errata'd to keep the same effect in ages.

I know you guys may be a bit angry your Shaymin are now worthless, but suggesting them to errata it is pure coping.

 

[Otaku]

@CardPone

It appears I was unclear with my criticism. I mean that quite literally. My bullet points were mostly a stream of consciousness instead of a proper list. My apologies.

I agree with the idea that there should be a unifying term for specialty Pokémon, as I (like many others) have suggested it before. My point was that "Special Pokémon" isn't a good term to use, at least as you presented it. "Multi-Prize" is not the greatest term either, I just find it slightly better. As I'm probably biased in favor of my own suggestion... yeah, that means little. XP

Both of us have overlapping criticisms, I think. It shouldn't be an issue with hypothetical new cards, but with those that predate the adoption of this term (and which don't get a corrected reprint). If we use "Special Pokémon", all the specialty mechanics on Pokémon we don't intend to include aren't obvious exclusions. If we use "multi-Prize", not only are we locking it into only applying to existing and future Pokémon naturally worth two or more Prizes, but there may be confusion caused by effects which alter how many Prize cards are taken. So... probably need something better. At least we should be able to come up with something better than "Pokémon Checkup". I miss "Between Turns". XP

My final point is probably just a pet peeve, caused by how often I write about Pokémon. Visually, there's not enough difference between Basic and basic, so I have to make sure I go for the full "Basic Pokémon" or "basic Energy". That can inflate word counts for articles, or character limits for things like Tweets. It also makes for an easy error to make while writing e.g. Basic Energy or basic Pokémon. I just prefer to avoid re-using a term already being applied elsewhere.

 

[Otaku]

How many years does that errata have. Keep your "mic drop". The format that originated that choice is long dead, and Catcher is the only card errata'd to keep the same effect in ages.

I know you guys may be a bit angry your Shaymin are now worthless, but suggesting them to errata it is pure coping.

Warning: I'm going to get long-winded again, because I think attempts at one-upping each other with quips is distracting from the actual discussion. The short version is, while some may indeed be upset their copies of Shaymin-EX (ROS) have lost most of their value, that does not mean people are automatically wrong to think that it could have simply received an erratum to address the problem. Just as the opposite is not true: someone in favor of banning Shaymin-EX, but who didn't own any copies of it, was not just being salty and trying to avoid having to shell out the money. @NicoNoo you stated that errata never happen just to nerf a card effect, and @johnwick correctly cited an example where that did indeed happen. You're free to dislike the tone he used, but you did indeed overstate your case.

Just because something hasn't happened for a long time doesn't mean it cannot happen again. It was announced in June of 2015 that Lysandre's Trump Card was banned. The last time a card had been properly* banned in the Standard Format prior to this was the 2003 Standard Format (usually referred to as the 2002-2003 Modified Format), the final Standard Format under Wizards of the Coasts' tenure. A 12 year gap, and with a change of who was in charge! XD

For a deeper dive...

Spoiler

Multiple errata have been issued not because a card was misprinted, but because the powers-that-be decided it needed to change. Most are not about nerfing the card; when not correcting actual printing errors, most errata are about how the game has changed over time. Still it is quite reasonable to ask "Why didn't they just issue errata for these cards?"

I don't know if there is a realistic errata for Oranguru (UPR) or Sableye (DEX) to avoid the reasons they were banned. With Milotic (FLF), the erratum is obvious; "Once during your turn (before your attack) you may Knock Out this Pokémon. If you do, attach 3 basic Energy from your discard pile to 1 of your Pokémon (excluding Pokémon-EX)." becomes "Once during your turn (before your attack) you may Knock Out this Pokémon. If you do, attach 3 basic Energy from your discard pile to 1 of your Pokémon (excluding Pokémon-EX, Pokémon-GX, or Pokémon V)." At this point, there are then two questions to ask:

• Is there a problem with reprinting this with the new wording?
• Is there a problem with creating an Alternate Printing with the new wording?

I don't know about the first one; maybe there's something else that Energy Grace could break, even though it would have to not be a Pokémon V. With the second question, while Milotic has its fans, I don't think it is popular enough to really qualify for its own Gift Set... though I suppose it could be packed in with something else if the powers-that-be really wanted to do it.

How about Shaymin-EX (ROS)? "When you play this Pokémon from your hand onto your Bench, you may draw cards until you have 6 cards in your hand." simply becomes "When you play this Pokémon from your hand onto your Bench, you may draw cards until you have 6 cards in your hand. You can’t use more than 1 Set Up Ability each turn." That is, unless the idea was that Dedenne-GX and Crobat V are as much of this kind of Ability-based, Pokémon draw as the metagame can handle. What about Scoop Up Net combos? You no longer can immediately re-play your Shaymin-EX to draw again. Unless not being a Pokémon V or Pokémon-GX is a problem apart from that, I think only having 110 HP still keeps things balanced (at least, relative to the rest of the metagame).

You can't just reprint it in the regular manner, however; Pokémon-EX are long gone from Standard, and even if they weren't, Shaymin-EX would be a significant presence to return to Standard. That is where Alternate Printings, or whatever they call it, come in. There are already three releases of Shaymin-EX (ROS) available:

• XY - Roaring Skies 77/108
• XY - Roaring Skies 77a/108
  
• XY - Roaring Skies 106/108

77a is an example of the Alternate Printing mechanic, which does not affect a card's legality with respect to any Formats. Simply release an XY - Roaring Skies 106a/108 Alternate Printing, or an XY - Roaring Skies 77b/108 printing, with the new text. Shaymin seems to be a reasonably popular Pokémon, and even if it wasn't, it is still a "Legendary" Pokémon, making it a safer bet for gift sets. As I believe this errata removes what made Shaymin-EX (ROS) broken in the eyes of TPCi, but still leaves it at least somewhat useful, I think the demand would be there even if general customers don't feel like another Shaymin collection.

However, simply banning all the cards is far easier.

*"Properly" was required because cards were sometimes banned for specific events, namely things like a Professor's Cup that already had additional restrictions on what cards could be used. There is also some awkwardness with certain cards that were not intended to be legal for competitive play (______'s Pikachu and the promo known as "Ancient" Mew), but which at times were allowed anyway.

 

[Laurier_Ex]

Removing Oranguru and Sableye but not removing Bunnelby keeps infinite loops still. They got rid of donk and Trevnoir so the format will be down to Adpz and a few other. Really not was I was hoping for.

 

[The Binder Guy]

Eh, I can't say I'm that surprised by the bans (especially Shaymin-EX's). Latios-EX decks were a common sight in the TCGO's Expanded ladder and both TrevNoir and Energy Mill were annoying as heck.

Removing Oranguru and Sableye but not removing Bunnelby keeps infinite loops still. They got rid of donk and Trevnoir so the format will be down to Adpz and a few other. Really not was I was hoping for.

Bunnelby's a bit trickier since it has less HP than both Sableye and Oranguru (Remember that Bunnelby has 60 HP) and Rototiller shuffles a card back into the deck rather than putting it into a spot that's easily accessable, but it does gain a little thanks to Omega Barrage and Burrow. You only need to put a single card back into your deck? That's fine, now you can mill your opponent's deck too!

 

[CrownAxe]

Eh, I can't say I'm that surprised by the bans (especially Shaymin-EX's). Latios-EX decks were a common sight in the TCGO's Expanded ladder and both TrevNoir and Energy Mill were annoying as heck.

Bunnelby's a bit trickier since it has less HP than both Sableye and Oranguru (Remember that Bunnelby has 60 HP) and Rototiller shuffles a card back into the deck rather than putting it into a spot that's easily accessable, but it does gain a little thanks to Omega Barrage and Burrow. You only need to put a single card back into your deck? That's fine, now you can mill your opponent's deck too!

No deck playing Oranguru actually utilized the fact the cards were place on the bottom of the deck (it's not like control decks were playing Looker or Fossils)

 

[Otaku]

No deck playing Oranguru actually utilized the fact the cards were place on the bottom of the deck (it's not like control decks were playing Looker or Fossils)

Not the same thing, but when Oranguru first started seeing play, didn't a few actually combo it with Looker? I mean, a few that actually saw at least a little success?

I mean, that was when Oranguru was new, so it doesn't really count at present. Still, if I'm wrong about the past, it is good for me to learn.

 

[CrownAxe]

Not the same thing, but when Oranguru first started seeing play, didn't a few actually combo it with Looker? I mean, a few that actually saw at least a little success?

I mean, that was when Oranguru was new, so it doesn't really count at present. Still, if I'm wrong about the past, it is good for me to learn.

Of course people tried it since that was the obvious combo and someone experiments doing that with Missing Clover but those decks never ended up doing well.

 

[cardgjammer]

Not the same thing, but when Oranguru first started seeing play, didn't a few actually combo it with Looker? I mean, a few that actually saw at least a little success?

I mean, that was when Oranguru was new, so it doesn't really count at present. Still, if I'm wrong about the past, it is good for me to learn.

Everyone:

Do you think that this deck equation justifies Creatures/TPCi's actions pertaining to thread subject? :

Spoiler: Deck Equation that Explains TPCi's Reasoning Behind Ban?

UPR Oranguru(to put the cards on deck bottom from discard)
+
DEX Sableye(to Junk Hunt dowsing machine AND Ordinary Rod/any Fossil item card that retrieves a restored pokemon from the bottom 7 cards of deck that either evolves into a pokemon that locks foes out of using a select group of trainer cards, or do 180 damage from post-restoration w/ a UNM Triple Acceleration Energy)
+
2 or more PLF Exeggcute w/ Propogation(to discard cards that can be put back into the hand for more discarding fodder)
+
Prize-reducers(e.g., LOT Shedinja and LOT Nincada, Black Market Prism Star, Etc.)
+
Looker
=
1 endless loop should one even bothered to seriously try the aforementioned deck

^ I'm just curious regarding Oranguru's AND Sableye's ban from Expanded. Could the above equation be caught by Creatures/TPCi BEFORE anybody else caught the combo AND/OR chose to make a deck to exploit it?

...or is there something else that justifies it?

 

[CrownAxe]

Everyone:

Do you think that this deck equation justifies Creatures/TPCi's actions pertaining to thread subject? :

Spoiler: Deck Equation that Explains TPCi's Reasoning Behind Ban?

UPR Oranguru(to put the cards on deck bottom from discard)+ DEX Sableye(to Junk Hunt dowsing machine AND Ordinary Rod/Any Fossil that requires a bottom 7 look)(to fish out the bottom 3 OR carry out a type of hand lock/serious damage(if a type hand lock/serious damage is intended, FCO Shuckle can be added to put the pokemon corresponding to the fossil on deck bottom), whether it's item(Omastar)/supporter(Kabutops) lock on the SECOND turn AFTER the turn Resource Management was used, a Triple Acceleration Energy-triggered Fossil Fangs attack on the turn after the Resource Management use, or some other reason) + Dowsing Machine(to fish out Looker from discard) + at least two PLF Exeggcute w/ Propogation(to discard WITHOUT having to worry about the discards getting stuck in the pile by rules that block cards from getting out of the discard pile once they are put there, unless an ability or effect from a card not from the discard pile OR an ability or effect from a card within the pile says otherwise) + prize-reducers like LOT Shedinja(along with, if included in this equation, LOT Nincada AND maybe Rowlet & Alolan Exeggutor-GX(to evolve LOT Nincada into LOT Shedinja T2, or the first turn of player going second, as no player is allowed to attack on T1, per PTCG rules))(to ensure no prizes are taken by opponent in the event a KO happens while exploiting) and/or Black Market Prism Star(to ensure that no prizes are taken post-KO on DEX Sableye) + Looker = one endless loop should one even bothered to seriously try the aforementioned deck

^ I'm just curious regarding Oranguru's AND Sableye's ban from Expanded. Could the above equation be caught by Creatures/TPCi BEFORE anybody else caught the combo AND/OR chose to make a deck to exploit it?

...or is there something else that justifies it?

I can not make heads or tails of what you're "equation" is trying to say. This wall of text is very hard to read since you are nonstop disrupting every explanation with another explanation.

But even without that the answer is no. TPCi aren't going to be aware of anything for expanded that ISN'T doing well in tournaments. So some theoretical busted control strategy (that isn't even new looking, the stuff for it has been around for years) isn't going to be on there radar/