Other Card Games?

[Card Slinger J]

Hmm, Shadow Era eh? What's with Game Developers these days trying to make TCG/CCG's into OCG's as in "Online Card Game" not "Original Card Game"? If I want to play a TCG/CCG I would rather have the actual cards and play out of my house instead of playing with digital cards online. What's the problem with that? Oh that's right cause we are still in a Recession (which people claim has ended in 2009 when it hasn't) and there's a lack of Teenager Capital (due to Middle Class Warfare) or that there's been a Generation Gap that seperates current gamers from those who are slaves to the mainstream media that have no idea what they are missing.

I know Wizards of the Coast has already put in place a patent on the TCG/CCG Genre and it doesn't expire until 2016 which is 4 years from now. Because Game Developers aren't able to pay the royalties to produce their own TCG/CCG's to bring forth more innovation in the actual Genre, Wizards was greedy cause they were worried that they would end up losing the majority of their playerbase in Magic The Gathering to other TCG/CCG's like Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh! when they still have a huge playerbase regardless of it because it was the first of it's kind that started a great Genre. I think another reason why they placed the patent was due to cards in the Reserved List that were rising in Collector's Value, and because that those cards aren't allowed to be reprinted again they are catering more to the Collector's than the people who play Magic.

It's like If back in the early days of video games in the late 1970's and early 80's If Atari ended up placing a patent on the video game genre thus hindering the success of Japanese video game companies like Nintendo and Sega from ever flourishing in the United States. There were probably laws back then where you couldn't place a patent on something from a foreign country and in this case it was in essence outside U.S. jurisdiction which is why Japan got away with spreading the video game genre in the U.S. with Nintendo and Sega. So yeah If Atari had their way I wouldn't be posting on this thread right now. Remember how the Atari Jaguar was a huge flop? Yeah Nintendo's time will come with the Wii U just you wait...

I've been around the block long enough to see various TCG/CCG's come and go, some dead while some survive to this day. I don't think the Online route with TCG/CCG's is the way to go cause you aren't getting the full experience of playing someone at a card game but instead it's like you're playing a random online game or a MMORPG that is void with no metagame, it's completely random, and even those that have played the Old Score DBZ/GT Card game are going by the Online bandwagon and I don't think it feels right. What's the point of playing a card game If you aren't actually using cards in your hand? They are digital, I mean I can see how playing card games online helps with playtesting certain decks and helps save money on cards you aren't sure about getting yet but have some freakin' common sense people.

We need more TCG/CCG's in the Secondary Market but the problem like I said is that Wizards won't allow it. They label them as blatant "copycat" games with minor tweaks in them and some people label these games as playing exactly like Magic when that's usually not the case at all. Call those tweaks "minor" for what you will but remember that each TCG/CCG has it's own style and different decks/archetypes. This is just a power grab by Wizards cause they don't want to share what they created as a genre, they need to quit hurting their own genre. Perhaps they are banking on the Global Economy being more fixed and stable by 2016 by the time their patent ends so that game developers can breathe new blood in the genre itself.

 

[Zero]

CSJ, is everything you post controversial? You're wrong when it comes to your analysis on WotC's patent. WotC filed for a patent on collectable card games in 1995. This was not in response to anything. WotC had a unique and fairly unheard of product at the time. They filed a patent on cards that were released in iterations (sets) also known as trading cards. They started with Magic, but then proceeded to go onto other similar games such as Pokemon. Pokemon was originally a Wizards product, so of course it didn't pay royalties! When Nintendo got the rights to PTCG, they battled a bit, but that is a different story. Yugioh was only released in 2000 (feels like so long ago). WotC wasn't reacting to anything. They had a novel idea and wanted to capitalize on it. Yugioh was nowhere to be seen when WotC filed for this patent. The manga was released in 1996. Nobody knew about it at the time!

WotC's patent is oddly specific when dealing with rules and regulations behind the games. After the Pokemon incident, there aren't any cases of WotC fighting over a card game. WotC isn't "power grabbing" anything. Games fail on their own merit. Card games are very difficult to start up. You need to ship expansions all over the nation. Moreover, people need to buy your product in massive numbers to make a profit, so your game has to be popular. Moreover, you need to keep the players' attention if you are releasing new sets. To do this, tournaments are often good, but that means that you need to make sure your game is balanced (as well as fun). It takes a lot of time, money, and effort to make a really good game. We've seen innovation. Bleach TCG had a very interested Spirit mechanic. Other games have interesting mechanics, but those games have failed for a number of reasons. No fault at WotC.

As far as Shadow Era goes, you have to realize what you get. The cards in SE are not liquidatable. Effectively, they have 0 physical value. Even cards in MtG:O have some value (1tix=$1 and you can trade for tix). All things will end eventually. That is inevitable. The game is no exception. IDK anyone who will disagree. The value of online SE cards is less than that of physical SE cards. I value my money, but I also value my fun. SE is a very fun game, so I don't care that I can't receive some value of money back when I tap out of SE. It is like seeing a movie. Other than enjoyment, I'll never get anything out of my $10 that I pay to see a movie. Same thing goes for online games like SE. There is a very well defined metagame in SE, so it is very structured. Wulven (the producer) wants to start SE tournaments which would be great. I highly enjoy the game, so my money is well spent with it. Having physical cards is nice, but they are inconvenient when I have to go to a store to play against only a few potential opponents. Why do that when I can go online to play against hundreds of potential opponents?


WotC's patent if you want to take a look: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,662,332.PN.&OS=PN/5,662,332&RS=PN/5,662,332

 

[Card Slinger J]

And here I thought the Wizards patent on TCG/CCG's started back in 2006 a year before the Stock Market Crashed and triggered the Great Recession under the Bush Administration. Turns out it was in 1997 which was back when I was still in Middle School (Junior High as some call it) before I got into the TCG/CCG Genre with Yu-Gi-Oh! which was my first TCG/CCG before getting into Magic and other TCG/CCG's. Yeah I remember those days, back when Yu-Gi-Oh! was still a good card game.

Zero, your views of how card games should be played are different from mine there's no question about it but I think there's still people like me who don't want things to change, they still want to go out of their house and actually play against someone in a TCG/CCG in which you get better enjoyment out of it. I guess when it all comes down to it, it's about player experience and I don't think you get the kind of experience playing a card game out in public as you would just sitting infront of your computer day in and day out playing with digital cards. You might but it still feels like some kind of disconnection though.

 

[Zero]

The experience is different! I agree. There are some games where I prefer to sit in front of another player. I dislike online Pokemon for that reason. Shadow Era feels like a single player card game unless you use chat (which people rarely do). In fact, aside from online players having more skill and better decks, there is little difference between playing someone online and playing one of the bots. The community develops in a different way, however. The forums are very populated and that is where most of the interaction takes place. When tournaments eventually come, teams will be developed similar to the way we experience them in Pokemon. In a way, playing online can make a game more compeititive. It eliminates most emotion from the game and lets you focus more on the actual competitive aspect of the game. I have many friends through Pokemon that I probably wouldn't have met if I played it online exclusively, but SE also offers quite a bit that is different from Pokemon. I can play online on my phone when I'm waiting for something. I've pulled it out at a starbucks under more than one occasion. If I'm in the mood to play some Shadow Era, location and time aren't inhibitors. Try doing THAT with Pokemon! I can play SE whenever I'm in the mood. SE and traditional TCGs are very different. They occupy a different market and appeal to people in different ways. Obviously, SE doesn't appeal to you. That's fine Functionally, physical TCGs and online TCGs are different experiences. I'm sure SE will occupy a bit of the real TCG market if it ever takes off the ground (which it may never do. I bought the cards as novelty items first... functional cards second), but it will always be a online TCG first and foremost.

If you need a comparison, take real life poker and online poker. They are two very different games, but they follow the same rules. The experiences are different, but people have preferences (or sometimes they don't). Neither one is better than the other. They both have their draws and appeals.

 

[Guts]

Yeah I remember those days, back when Yu-Gi-Oh! was still a good card game.

Explain. I will admit that the online TCG community is less than intelligent at times, but YGO is still a fantastic game.

 

[don()shinobi]

And no, CSJ. Just because you need a lot of money to have a good deck doesn't mean it's a bad game.
Don't talk about power creeps either. Every card game has (or will get, if it's new) a power creep.
Just thought I'd throw that out before you decided to put that in your 3-4 paragraph post. :3

 

[Card Slinger J]

Explain. I will admit that the online TCG community is less than intelligent at times, but YGO is still a fantastic game.

I'm talking about back when there was no Forbidden/Limited List in Yu-Gi-Oh!, where there was as much luck with the game as there was skill, when the Anime/Manga series was huge in the U.S., that sort of thing. 4Kids killed the Anime series here but
Shonen Jump is probably keeping the Manga series alive.

Nowadays when I look at Yu-Gi-Oh! I see it as a rich man's game that's a shadow of it's former self. The people who play it nowadays seem to miss out on other TCG/CCG's because they spend so much money on Yu-Gi-Oh! it's ridiculous. There's no balance or resource system with the game at all yet Konami seems to keep the TCG in check pretty well I guess.

I never did like how Yu-Gi-Oh! does Rotations, instead of Set Rotations like other TCG/CCG's they will rotate specific cards every 3 months so you build a deck with a card that's still tournament legal only that it gets rotated out on short notice and you lose money on a specific card you invested in to build a new deck with a card that you have too limited of a time to run.

 

[Guts]

Not having rotations seems like a much more simpler concept to me, but I think it's just a different idea for a different game. And you dislike the limited/forbidden list? That's the only thing that doesn't allow to spam the heck out of broken cards in the format. It makes the game a lot more competitive. And trust me, the Anime and Manga are pretty much ruined. 5D's manga deviates way too far from the television show, and Zexal is just... Zexal. And while I will admit that the newer YGO media sucks, people who want "the good ol days" back (both in Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh!) are just denying the newer generation because it is unfamiliar to them, and they are somehow cooler because they only play stuff from the older years. I'm not meaning to insult anyone, but it irks me when people state that they only play Red/Blue/Yellow or the first gen of YGO because they are "the only good years".

P.S. - You'll spend money making a good deck in any TCG. It just takes effort to find cards at lower prices. In fact, JaySee's YGO deck that he asked me about yesterday would do decently at tournaments, and it won't cost more than $50.00.

 

[don()shinobi]

I'm talking about back when there was no Forbidden/Limited List in Yu-Gi-Oh!, where there was as much luck with the game as there was skill,

I do hope you realize what is ON the list, sir. Let me list some of the banned cards that were released in the beginning of the game.

- Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End + Yata Garasu: Chaos Emperor Dragon blows up everything in both player's hands and field. Have one of those monsters be your Sangan and search out Yata Garasu. Summon Yata Garasu. Keep attacking. Your opponent will be unable to draw for the rest of the duel.

- Raigeki + Harpie's Feather Duster: Blows up your opponent's field at literally no cost whatsoever.

- Magician of Faith: Gets you a Spell back at no cost whatsoever.

- Dark Magician of Chaos: A 2800 ATK Magician of Faith.

- Pot of Greed: This isn't Pokemon. Drawing 2 cards for literally no cost at all is a big deal. And this was that card. Nowadays you need to DO something to draw cards, but Pot of Greed makes it extremely simple.

- Mass Driver: Comboed with the somewhat recently released Substitoad, you could literally win the duel without giving your opponent a single turn.

- Sinister Serpent: Makes cards with a discard cost insanely overpowered.

- Sixth Sense: Although never released in the TCG, I can see why; it let you draw up to SIX cards. Though it relies on luck, yes, anything sent to the graveyard if it backfired could be used for the newly-released Chaos monsters, making it have basically no disadvantages.

- Makyura the Destroyer + Exchange of the Spirit: Makyura is just stupid by itself, letting you access your Traps from anywhere. Combo it with Exchange of the Spirit and you can make your opponent's deck size 0 before they can take a single turn.

- Card of Safe Return: Getting card advantage is one of the most-desired strategies in this game. Getting card advantage for doing nothing but reviving a fallen monster is just too good.

- Delinquent Duo: Easily one of the best cards ever printed. For just 1000 life points, your opponent discarded 2 cards, one of them at random. Banned for obvious reasons. On the other hand, you could use its counterparts, The Forceful Sentry and Confiscation, which let you choose which card to get rid of...oh, wait, those two are banned as well.

- Imperial Order: With low-ATK monsters everywhere, you needed Spells to do anything, basically. Being able to stop them at such a low cost just destroyed the format.

- Cyber Jar and Fiber Jar: Cyber Jar nuked the field of any threats and just gave them monsters to replace it. Fiber Jar literally reset the game.

- Magical Scientist: Comboed with Catapult Turtle, you could take out all of your opponent's life points without a single attack.

- Cyber-Stein: Do I even have to explain? This + Cyber End Dragon + Megamorph = gg.

- Change of Heart: The ability to take any of your opponent's monsters for whatever reason at no cost whatsoever is just overpowered.

- Painful Choice: The ability to add any card you want from your deck to your hand is simply astounding. You can simply revive things your opponent didn't choose with Monster Reborn.


Need I say more? I've been playing Yu-Gi-Oh since the beginning, and have dueled against many of these cards. They were not fun in the slightest, nor did they require the slightest amount of skill. Get a modern deck and go play the traditional format and tell me just how fair the game is if nothing is banned.

 

[Ophie]

There's always going to be physical trading card games, and now that there are online ones, there's going to be a consistent presence in those too. I don't think anyone would doubt they feel different, but they are different business models with different plans for success. The physical ones rely on sales of cards to sustain themselves; the online ones do too (if they charge for the cards) and also from player presence. If something online is popular, that alone can turn a profit (look at Facebook or Amazon, for instance).

Because of that, the approaches are going to be different, and as Zero stated, so are the audiences. Everyone has his or her idea of how much they believe things are worth, which varies from person to person. Card games are no different. This, I believe, is where the dividing line is between the traditional physical ones and the online ones. Someone who feels that Magic the Gathering or Yu-Gi-Oh! or even Pokémon is too expensive might be okay with Shadow Era. Inversely, someone may feel the experience is cheapened online than playing across a real table and believe the increased cost is worth the social experience.

I wouldn't say one is better than the other, of course--just that they suit different desires. Kind of like how I wouldn't say Honda is superior to BMW or vice versa for the same reason.

 

[Card Slinger J]

Need I say more? I've been playing Yu-Gi-Oh since the beginning, and have dueled against many of these cards. They were not fun in the slightest, nor did they require the slightest amount of skill. Get a modern deck and go play the traditional format and tell me just how fair the game is if nothing is banned.

Yu-Gi-Oh! was good up until Legacy of Darkness, it was after Invasion of Chaos when the game went downhill. Yu-Gi-Oh! like I said before doesn't do set rotations like other TCG/CCG's for their Modern format which is a shame cause it would cycle out cards that promote power creep and Yu-Gi-Oh! has the most power creep of any TCG to date.

 

[don()shinobi]

Yu-Gi-Oh! was good up until Legacy of Darkness, it was after Invasion of Chaos when the game went downhill. Yu-Gi-Oh! like I said before doesn't do set rotations like other TCG/CCG's for their Modern format which is a shame cause it would cycle out cards that promote power creep and Yu-Gi-Oh! has the most power creep of any TCG to date.

You're not responding to what I said. You're just making things up.
Go take an Inzektor deck and put it up against a Magical Scientist OTK deck. Even though it came out over 7 years ago, I absolutely guarantee the Magical Scientist deck will win 9 times out of 10.
The power creep is handled perfectly fine with the List. That's why they don't rotate anything out; if an old card is considered to be usable in today's metagame without breaking it (like Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning), then they'll bring it back. If something is too much for the metagame to handle, they'll get it on the List. It's that simple. Yes, there is a power creep, but it is handled with the List.
Give me proof that it doesn't and I might just believe you. And that means to give reasons to support your statements instead of just spitting them out with no support whatsoever and expect to get your point across.