Owner Pokemon Returning to the TCG and Team Rocket Set Teased at Worlds!

I don't understand where in Grimmsnarl's attack you're taking that its damage increases as the game progresses?
That is not what I wrote. Grimmsnarl does 180 + 30 benched. Charizard does 180 + 30 for each prize your opponent has taken. If they take no prizes, Grimmsnarl theoretically has a higher damage output.
This might be unlikely, but it also means Grimmsnarl does slightly more damage early game.
 
Looks like this confirms that the mechanic only let's you evolve Trainer's Pokemon from Trainer's Pokemon. Bummer. Evolving Steven's Metagross from the good Metang would have been awesome. And I would have loved to evolve N's Zoroark from that pretty Zorua art rare we just got. Hopefully this let's them make really strong and interesting EX's though!
Wait why would they have changed that?

Well, as for Ethan's Pikachu and Ethan's Raichu (ex?), no baby Pokémon has evolved into its respective basic since the end of the Diamond and Pearl era, so I don't see why Pokémon should need to print Ethan's Pikachu and Ethan's Raichu. Also, N's Purloin was a notable Pokémon of his, but not one that has been seen evolved in any form of Pokémon media, so I wouldn't guarantee an N's Liepard being printed. (I could say the same for Misty's Golduck, except that Misty HAD a Golduck in Pokémon Stadium 2 and in the TCG itself. I'm double-checking this information on Bulbapedia.)
They could still do it, after all Ethan's Pikachu could be a Stage 1 Pokemon. It wouldn't be out of sorts.
 
There are many Pokemon in the format with actually scaling attacks. Charizard's attack isn't a true "scaling" attack, because the player has no control over the scaling beyond progressing the game. If your opponent doesn't take any prizes, Grimmsnarl will do more damage over the course of the game. Yes, in most cases Charizard's attack will be better, but the main strength of Charizard is it's ridiculous consistency and speed, and the ability to play very little energy.
Limiting the deck to only playing Marnie's Pokemon will hardly be a downside. I expect this set to have Trainer cards that are just overpowered versions of regular Trainers with a "Owner's Clause", like it happened before.
And, most importantly, even if it's a card that's "only" 90% of TCharizard ex's strength, that's still a dumb card that should not be printed. If the cards from the H-block forward continue to be relatively slower outside of this single card, in two years Grimmsnarl will be 90% of the meta.
We still don't know what the other Marnie pokemon are so why are you doomposting about it? You seem to like doomposting about every single potentially competitively viable cards. Why not just look at the card as it stands currently rather than conspiring about how it's gonna break the game 2 years in the future. So far, Grimsnarl looks to be fairly balanced, with clear levers to limit it's power.

Tzard is consistent and fast exactly because if it's scaling attack. You're allowed to build your deck purely for consistency because you don't need to use deck space on other attackers and you don't need to setup other attackers on your opening turn. Tzard is strong because it ohko's everything late game but due to it's 330hp, it is hard to ohko back, taking 2 turns to ko. Against other 2 prize decks, the time it takes to take 2 prizes, zard had taken 4. This means you can come back from a 2 prize deficit against other 2 prize decks, inherently having insurance to when you don't have a great opening turn. Have you seen the control zard variants that also wins through prize cards? That's only possible with Tzard and it's attack. You will 100% never see a control Grimsnarl deck that also wins through prize cards.

I'd argue N's Zoroark is on track to be more powerful than grimsnarl, as history has shown that having a draw engine built in with your attacker is extremely powerful (Zoroark GX, Mew Vmax, and shining arcana Gardevoir) and meta defining. Typically pokemon that fulfil 2 of the trinity of: draw engine, energy acceleration, and attacker, conditions are very powerful. We still need to know the other N pokemon.
 
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It's consistent and fast exactly because if it's scaling attack.
You cannot just ignore the fact that it also gets to run six energies, because it has a ridiculous power that skips an entire game mechanic, letting it stuff the deck with consistency cards. A Tera Charizard ex without that power would be just a fine card - perhaps even balanced, as far as a 300HP Pokemon can be considered balanced.
It's all a moot point, because it doesn't matter if this card is just as strong as Charizard. When first showcased, Grass Ogerpon ex was a "disappointingly weak card". There just shouldn't be cards that allow you to skip a game mechanic completely, especially an entire card category.
We still don't know what the other Marnie pokemon are so why are you doomposting about it?
Because we have precedence for how this mechanic usually works.
I'd argue N's Zoroark is on track to be more powerful than grimsnarl, as history has shown that having a draw engine built in with your attacker is extremely powerful (Zoroark GX, Mew Vmax, and shining arcana Gardevoir)
It is possible, especially in two years worth of rotation, but I would consider Trade to be thoroughly out-powercreeped by every other mechanic. You're listing Mew VMAX (or more specifically, Genesect V), that let you draw upwards of 20 cards per turn with no downside. Compared to this, drawing up to eight cards a turn with discards is rather mediocre. We've just watched another Worlds finals lost due to a bad hand because of how min-maxed the decks are - I don't think Zoroark is going to make a splash until rotation.
 
It is possible, especially in two years worth of rotation, but I would consider Trade to be thoroughly out-powercreeped by every other mechanic. You're listing Mew VMAX (or more specifically, Genesect V), that let you draw upwards of 20 cards per turn with no downside. Compared to this, drawing up to eight cards a turn with discards is rather mediocre. We've just watched another Worlds finals lost due to a bad hand because of how min-maxed the decks are - I don't think Zoroark is going to make a splash until rotation.
How is a trade attacker "mediocre". Just last worlds, it was a Gardevoir deck vs a Mew Vmax deck in the finals and all the games were extremely close. I'm not sure how competitively knowledgable you are to even say Trade on an attacker is "mediocre". If I were you I'd probably keep meta analysis to other people.
 
How is a trade attacker "mediocre". Just last worlds, it was a Gardevoir deck vs a Mew Vmax deck in the finals and all the games were extremely close.
Because Gardevoir ex lets you get essentially infinite card advantage, and baby Gardevoir's Ability is just a nice bonus on top of that.
Having these Abilities on an attacker isn't as big of a deal anymore - it used to matter when Zoroark GX was good, because the games were way longer, the Abilities had less impact and many decks played with their whole bench. Now you get an Ability that lets you skip 1/3rd of the game mechanics, it's nice when it's on an attacker like Charizard, but when it's on the bench like Gardevoir or Genesect V it's still a broken Ability and you're going to play it.
I'm not sure how competitively knowledgable you are to even say Trade on an attacker is "mediocre". If I were you I'd probably keep meta analysis to other people.
Because there's a good chance I've been playing & analyzing TCGs longer than you've been alive.
 
There is always a copy attacks kind of deck?

I can remember in order

MewMew (Discard pile and Field)
Mew Vmax (Field)
Regidragon (Discard pile)
and now Zoroark (Field)

Would have be more interesting if you had to reveal (maybe discard as well) a card from your hand to use Zoroark attack, so all of them would be different
 
I feel like this took WAY too long to do. Would be nice if sets could randomly throw owners Pokemon into sets. Would love to see Ash's Pidgeot since he got it back and he seems to be canon now.
Out of curiosity, since your profile describes you as a "bird trainer," are there any other birds you would be happy seeing if Pokémon decided making Pidgeot one of the best engines around was enough attention to give it? I always enjoy seeing Skarmory get attention, for example, and Swellow and Toucannon have also gone largely overlooked. (An Ash's Pidgeot would be a fun way to recognize Ash finally being reunited with Pidgeot over 20 years after he promised he'd come right back for him after dropping off the GS Ball, though.)
 
Because there's a good chance I've been playing & analyzing TCGs longer than you've been alive.
And designing games professionally, right? Speaking of which, what games have you been involved in designing? Or do you not want to leave a trail of bread crumbs that some stalker could identify you from?
 
Out of curiosity, since your profile describes you as a "bird trainer," are there any other birds you would be happy seeing if Pokémon decided making Pidgeot one of the best engines around was enough attention to give it? I always enjoy seeing Skarmory get attention, for example, and Swellow and Toucannon have also gone largely overlooked. (An Ash's Pidgeot would be a fun way to recognize Ash finally being reunited with Pidgeot over 20 years after he promised he'd come right back for him after dropping off the GS Ball, though.)
The new noctowl is really cool. And so is united wings! (I also answered cause I love birds)
 
Because Gardevoir ex lets you get essentially infinite card advantage, and baby Gardevoir's Ability is just a nice bonus on top of that.
Having these Abilities on an attacker isn't as big of a deal anymore - it used to matter when Zoroark GX was good, because the games were way longer, the Abilities had less impact and many decks played with their whole bench. Now you get an Ability that lets you skip 1/3rd of the game mechanics, it's nice when it's on an attacker like Charizard, but when it's on the bench like Gardevoir or Genesect V it's still a broken Ability and you're going to play it.
The point is that trade attackers are extremely powerful. Gardevoir ex able to skip an entire mechanic isn't the main reason it was powerful. Compare it with chien pao, it's also a stage 2 deck capable of ignoring the energy mechanic. Can you explain why gardevoir ex was best deck in format while chien pao was just a tier 2 deck at best, in that format? Well I can tell you why, it's because chien pao also needed to setup their bibarels (draw engine) on top of baxcaliburs. Meanwhile all gardevoir needed to do was setup Kirlias, because their energy and draw engines were essentially the same pokemon.

There is literal historical evidence that shows draw engine attackers are pretty much all meta contenders.

You might have lots of years of analysis but that doesn't mean you're actually good at analysing. I've been gaming for decades but that doesn't mean i'm a good gamer... Single cards that fulfill 2+ roles a deck requires will always be meta strong. Just because a card can skip a mechanic, doesn't mean it's going to warp the game. A competitive deck isn't just about one mechanic.
 
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The point is that trade attackers are extremely powerful. Gardevoir ex able to skip an entire mechanic isn't the main reason it was powerful. Compare it with chien pao, it's also a stage 2 deck capable of ignoring the energy mechanic. Can you explain why gardevoir ex was best deck in format while chien pao was just a tier 2 deck at best, in that format?
Weird to use Gardevoir ex in this example, a deck that very clearly has different attacking/engine Pokemon (even if they evolve on the same path), but also a deck that didn't make a splash in Tier 0 until it got access to Munkidori, a Pokemon that it has to, in fact, set up separately. Not to say that it is its own fault - in any normal format, like the one Zoroark GX existed in, Gardevoir ex would immediately be a Tier 0 deck, with or without additional cards. But we are not playing a normal format.

I am not saying Zoroark ex will never be a deck - any type of meta-analysis before the card ever releases has potential to age extremely poorly. I am just warning people from getting excited about Trade as though we are still in 2018. When Trade last dominated Standard, it was de-facto the peak of Abilities in that format, at least on a Stage 1 with a decent attack. Many decks ran with "generic" engines like Tapu Lele GX and Jirachi, not needing much or any Type-specific support to be competitive. This is not the same environment as today, where a deck's existence relies mostly on an Ability that lets you bypass one of the game's mechanics - or, hilariously, blocking such decks from doing anything.
You might have lots of years of analysis but that doesn't mean you're actually good at analysing if you fail to realize that single cards that fulfill 2+ roles a deck requires will always be meta strong. Just because a card can skip a mechanic, doesn't mean it's going to warp the game. A competitive deck isn't just about one mechanic.
lol
 
Siiiiick! I'm so glad they brought it back! This'll also be a bit of fun to play with some of the game mechanics as well :D Hopefully their cards aren't just boring Pokémon-VS vanilla cards!
 
Weird to use Gardevoir ex in this example, a deck that very clearly has different attacking/engine Pokemon (even if they evolve on the same path), but also a deck that didn't make a splash in Tier 0 until it got access to Munkidori, a Pokemon that it has to, in fact, set up separately. Not to say that it is its own fault - in any normal format, like the one Zoroark GX existed in, Gardevoir ex would immediately be a Tier 0 deck, with or without additional cards. But we are not playing a normal format.
I don't even know why you mention a t0 when there hasn't been a t0 deck (or even contender) since silver tempest format.

You're also misunderstanding why shrouded fable gardevoir was strong in the first place. Yes, munkidori was a great upgrade to the deck but the main card that made it a top tier threat was reset stamp. Rewatch all the gardevoir games on stream and you will see that reset stamp is the key factor in each win. The NAIC top cut match is a small exception as the reset stamp pilot fumbled hard, but was on track to win his mirror match.

When Trade last dominated Standard, it was de-facto the peak of Abilities in that format, at least on a Stage 1 with a decent attack.
Can you not read what N's zoroark does? It's exactly that, which is why I'd argue that N's zoroark has more potential to be meta in a future format rather than Grimsnarl.

I am just warning people from getting excited about Trade as though we are still in 2018.
I'm also warning you that you shouldn't constantly think the metagame is going to break in several years in the future just because a card is released where it's only merit is strong energy acceleration. All your format ending conspiracy theories seem to always be tied to energy acceleration. That's just objectively false. You'd probably think better about this game if you accept this fact.
 
I don't even know why you mention a t0 when there hasn't been a t0 deck (or even contender) since silver tempest format.
"Tier 0" is just a Tier for decks that are so oppressively strong, that they deny other decks from competing just by the nature of what they do. A format can have multiple Tier 0 decks. You may have a different definition, but if it's meta%, then anything above 20-25% meta would be considered a Tier 0 in a healthy TCG.
You're also misunderstanding why shrouded fable gardevoir was strong in the first place.
No, I am looking at it objectively, by reading the card and what it does. If the power of Gardevoir ex can shift from a joke deck to Tier 1 by what exists around it, then this definition of "power" says nothing about the card itself, just about the deck that was built with it. I'm not really sure what this point has to do with your original argument, but a lot of ground was yielded in this discussion already.
Can you not read what N's zoroark does? It's exactly that, which is why I'd argue that N's zoroark has more potential to be meta in a future format rather than Grimsnarl.
How is Zoroark's Trade anywhere close to the best Abilities in the format? Wasn't your original argument that the end-all-be-all of competitive Pokemon is sticking a good Ability on a strong attacker? You've failed to prove that when Genesect V existed, arguably the most bonkers Ability in the last decade that just made the concept of drawing cards a non-mechanic for a single deck. Or the aforementioned Gardevoir ex, which is not the main attacker of its own deck, and yet the entire deck revolves around it to function.
I'm also warning you that you shouldn't constantly think the metagame is going to break in several years in the future just because a card is released where it's only merit is strong energy acceleration. All your format ending conspiracy theories seem to always be tied to energy acceleration. That's just objectively false. You'd probably think better about this game if you accept this fact.
The metagame is broken currently, which the World's finals really put a beautiful ribbon on. What was actually happening is the meta was on track to heal in a few years, as probably the objectively strongest card released was Dragapult ex, and that's just a classic "way too much damage for way too low of a cost" thing. Now they print another card that just lets you skip a game mechanic. This is terrible both for diversity of competitive, as well as for the accessibility of the game among non-competitive players.
 
The metagame is broken currently, which the World's finals really put a beautiful ribbon on. What was actually happening is the meta was on track to heal in a few years, as probably the objectively strongest card released was Dragapult ex, and that's just a classic "way too much damage for way too low of a cost" thing. Now they print another card that just lets you skip a game mechanic. This is terrible both for diversity of competitive, as well as for the accessibility of the game among non-competitive players.
The meta isn’t broken, people really need to stop saying that at some point. Yes, there’s been power creep since the beginning, but that’s totally normal and inevitable for a card game with such longevity. The ONLY way to fix that would be to create a stagnant meta for three years until everything rotates, and even after that, the power creep would come back because they’re printing new cards. It’s more interesting for players if the new cards can compete with the meta.

What I don’t understand about your argument is that you seem to think, with absolute certainty, that stronger cards mean an unhealthy meta and worse game design. Well, no, absolutely not. You’re just blinded by nostalgia, or I don’t know, but literally, the current meta is one of the healthiest and most diverse we’ve seen in a long time.

Yes, the World Championships were won by a stall deck and with coin flip cards, but that just shows that the game is diverse and that many strategies are possible. It’s also because the deck wasn’t respected; no one put a Counseling Cologne in their deck.

You also seem to complain about cards that don’t follow the rules of the game… are you serious?? Not following the rules of the game is literally the whole point of card effects in a TCG. In Magic (the TCG that created the genre), this rule is literally called the "Golden Rule." If you don’t want cards that break the rules of the game, stop playing TCGs right now. These kinds of games aren’t for you, because breaking the rules of the game is exactly what gives TCGs their charm.

So no, 300 HP for a Pokémon isn’t “unhealthy.” It’s just a number, and it says absolutely nothing about the game itself, except that there’s been power creep. And again, power creep is normal, inevitable, and thankfully it exists. It doesn’t take much thinking to understand that, and that’s why all games are subject to it at some point. If there’s no power creep, you have a stagnant game where the meta rarely changes. Besides breaking the rules of the game, the second thing that gives TCGs their charm is the fact that the meta changes very regularly.

I honestly don’t think TCGs are made for you. You’re just complaining about what is normal in a TCG.
 
The meta isn’t broken, people really need to stop saying that at some point. Yes, there’s been power creep since the beginning, but that’s totally normal and inevitable for a card game with such longevity. The ONLY way to fix that would be to create a stagnant meta for three years until everything rotates, and even after that, the power creep would come back because they’re printing new cards. It’s more interesting for players if the new cards can compete with the meta.
There is a lot of completely wrong statements here, but the chief one is - powercreep isn't "normal". Powercreep is a cheap way of generating excitement for new cards. One of the reasons the concept of "Standard" was invented was to prevent gradual and even incidental powercreep. Magic, which you seemed to have played, has pretty obviously "depowered" many times and it didn't affect the game negatively.
What I don’t understand about your argument is that you seem to think, with absolute certainty, that stronger cards mean an unhealthy meta and worse game design. Well, no, absolutely not. You’re just blinded by nostalgia, or I don’t know, but literally, the current meta is one of the healthiest and most diverse we’ve seen in a long time.

Yes, the World Championships were won by a stall deck and with coin flip cards, but that just shows that the game is diverse and that many strategies are possible. It’s also because the deck wasn’t respected; no one put a Counseling Cologne in their deck.
So literally - the meta can have boring games, where every deck is based around the same general idea (abusing some kind of broken Ability), but that's okay because there's a lot of these decks? You seem to look at a single metric and base your entire image of the game's quality on that metric, and how it affects you. In reality, any card game has a diverse range of players that expect different things, like to play different cards in different environments.
You also seem to complain about cards that don’t follow the rules of the game… are you serious?? Not following the rules of the game is literally the whole point of card effects in a TCG. In Magic (the TCG that created the genre), this rule is literally called the "Golden Rule." If you don’t want cards that break the rules of the game, stop playing TCGs right now. These kinds of games aren’t for you, because breaking the rules of the game is exactly what gives TCGs their charm.
Yes, this can be your takeaway if you read a single article about TCG design. The reality, as it often turns out, is much more complicated. Even the "rule breaks" you mention from Magic are, in fact, just more rules.
I don't really wish to expand on any of these points, because each could've easily been an article (many of which were already written already). At the same time, you don't really seem like you're keen on learning anything, just making assertions without having any knowledge on the matter.
And again, power creep is normal, inevitable, and thankfully it exists. It doesn’t take much thinking
Clearly.
 
There is a lot of completely wrong statements here, but the chief one is - powercreep isn't "normal". Powercreep is a cheap way of generating excitement for new cards. One of the reasons the concept of "Standard" was invented was to prevent gradual and even incidental powercreep. Magic, which you seemed to have played, has pretty obviously "depowered" many times and it didn't affect the game negatively.
It seems you don't quite understand why I say that power creep is inevitable, so let me explain. To do so, let's imagine that each card has a numerical power level that takes into account its summoning cost, difficulty of use, strength, combo potential, etc.

When game designers create a game, ideally, they aim for equal power across all cards, which we'll set at 100 (in reality, this isn't the case; designers often intentionally make most cards less powerful and a small number of cards quite strong to better control the game and meta, but let's set that aside, as it doesn't change the outcome).

In an ideal world where game designers are perfect, we would have all cards with an equivalent power level of 100.

The card pool would look like this: 100, 100, 100, 100, 100, 100, 100, 100, 100.

But in reality, game designers are human, so there’s a certain level of uncertainty that makes the final card pool look more like this:

104, 98, 107, 102, 93, 103, 102, 99.

Okay, but if it were just that, the difference in balance between the cards wouldn't be too problematic. However, in a TCG, cards can combo with each other. They can create new interactions. So when a new card is released, it changes the power of the cards, and our pool becomes even more unbalanced, like this:

123, 98, 106, 129, 112, 83, 104, 121.

And this is where the meta appears: when playing at a competitive level, we only use the cards that have a power level around 120.

Alright, I've explained why card games are unbalanced, but that still doesn’t explain why there’s power creep. Well, there's just one more question to ask: when designers create a new set, do you think they’ll aim for 100 as initially planned, or 120 so the new cards can be played competitively?

One might think that the first option is the best, and in any case, the uncertainties will result in cards as strong as the previous meta. But no, because as I said earlier, each new set strengthens the previous ones. If you design cards aiming for 100, you'll probably end up close to 100, maybe around 110 max. However, you’ll reinforce the card that already existed and was at 120 (as we saw with Pecharunt, which strengthened Charizard, or Dragapult, which strengthened Regidrago).

But aiming for 120 isn't a good idea either, because then power creep happens too quickly, and you end up like Yu-Gi-Oh. What Pokémon does is smart because they mostly increase the numbers, which means the gameplay isn’t really affected.

But that’s not the end. You mentioned rotation as a way to change the meta, and indeed, it serves that purpose; it slows down power creep. But it doesn’t completely solve the problem. As we saw with Mew VMAX, sometimes the errors are so significant that only rotation can correct them. But when that happens, it’s still problematic because having the same deck dominate the meta for two years is far from ideal. Rotation diversifies the meta, yes, but it still takes two to three years, so it's far from a complete solution.

In conclusion, to give a specific and recent example, when they moved to the Scarlet and Violet block, they had to create new decks to compete against Pokémon V, which had two years of support behind them. So they naturally made the Pokémon ex a little more powerful so they could hope to win against the Pokémon V. It’s just logical; if they hadn’t done that, we’d still have a meta dominated by Arceus and Lugia decks today, and the VMAXs would continue to dominate everything.


So literally - the meta can have boring games, where every deck is based around the same general idea (abusing some kind of broken Ability), but that's okay because there's a lot of these decks? You seem to look at a single metric and base your entire image of the game's quality on that metric, and how it affects you. In reality, any card game has a diverse range of players that expect different things, like to play different cards in different environments.
umm yes ? if you want to play with decks that look like each other or don't break the game rules. go play build and battle format or play with starter ex decks


Yes, this can be your takeaway if you read a single article about TCG design. The reality, as it often turns out, is much more complicated. Even the "rule breaks" you mention from Magic are, in fact, just more rules.
and the rules break in pokemon are also, in fact, more rules
 
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