You have proved your complete ignorance and I do not wish to go any further off-topic. Thankyou.
Pokemon Pokemon: Going uphill or downhill?
- Thread starter raichupika33
- Start date
lol @ me being ignorant. It's okay if you don't get me, but don't call me ignorant, because it makes you look stupid.
afstandopleren said:
Are you sure? You're the one on a Pokemon forum with a very large TCG fan base saying the card game is on a decline. One where people are constantly disscussing the advantages and disadvantagesof popular cards and speaking of intense matches they've had in the current format. Rogues have never been overly competitive - the fun thing about this format however is there's such variety what would be rogues are considered as 2nd tier! You then sum down these many discussions and reports as "mindless".
You sir, should consider who looks silly here.
Pokémaniac said:
Well sorry for posting my opinion. >_> I can just as well call the Pokemon community ignorant then because I don't get why they love the current meta so much. (See what I did thar?) And uhm, no real rogues has ever hit the second tier yet in this meta, just older meta decks like T-Tar etc..
Good thing you know your place, thank you oh silly one.Pokémaniac said:
afstandopleren said:
And I can call you a pickle. What's your point?
T-Tar? You mean that card that needs 5 energy to pull of it's main attack and 3+ to do it's main damaging attack? The one that sets up with a Stage 2 and imany variants a Stage 1 and a Basic Level X? Say, that doesn't sound like a Turn 1 deck to me at all!
afstandopleren said:
And you are a pickle.
/me runs
lol, your lack of experience clearly shows. First you ask me to explain and now that you don't like the answer, you throw stuff around and seem to be trying to get the last word. You should know that you could just as well left it with my answer without posting at all which would have been the best option btw. I hope you learn from this.
afstandopleren said:
And your argument to this point is
You are yet to explain WHY Flygon is so mindless. It isn't T1, it has a variety of attacks to use, effects to abuse and techs to choose from. And playing against it is much the same. Do you level up your Pokemon? That could easily cost you a built-up Level-X. Do you not level it up? Then you don't get its effects. Do you play your BTS, slam down your cards and then become unable to attack next turn? Or from Flygon's perspective, do you Sand Wall immediately or hold out? Do you play Dusknoir? How do you handle mirrors? And trust me, that's just one deck.
With these supposedly mindless decks, how do you choose which to play? Beedrill, with its high output and outstanding recovery, but comparitavely slow setup? Or Machamp with it's donking ability but pitiful damage out put? The list goes on.
Please, when arguing, have some content rather than just "you're wrong" and the basis of your argument. Elaborate!
Sorry what??? *is confused* What part of the quoted post says something about the meta being mindless? Shouldn't you be quoting a different post of mine?Pokémaniac said:
Lolwut, you just pointed everything that's easy about Flygon. To elaborate, I'll quote myself for a change... >_>Pokémaniac said:
And just because you find the decisions you have to make with Flygon difficult, doesn't mean someone else (Me in this case) find such choices brain farts.afstandopleren said:
First, I don't like to Donk, I find that cheap and against the SotG because it's not a game if it ends T1 IMHO, just because you don't have a Benched Basic. Such a big whoop choice for me in that case. I'd rather play my own Café decks obviously that have been perfectly tailored to match my kind of play and is original to boot. Call it dumb or call it guts, either way, I am atleast forcing myself to have a challenge, use my brain when playing the game vs the stereotypes that are the meta decks with their high degree of predictability.Pokémaniac said:
I think I just did for large parts, but let me know if you want to know more.Pokémaniac said:
afstandopleren said:
Well, that was basically what you were saying.
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know Einstein played card games.
You know, you're impossible to debate with. You just say "it's a brainfart" and think that proves your point. Donks are cheap but do you honestly consider that to be the entire game? T1 and donk are 2 completely different concepts. Donks aren't fun - T1 decks just put on the pressure.
And that may be your play-style - you like a large pool of abilities and I can get that. That doesn't make every other playstyle a brain fart.
I have to go to sleep now, cya!
ROFLOL, you just say that because you don't know how to handle the situation. You just don't seem to get that this is, I repeat, my point of view. Doesn't mean I think you are wrong and it should not mean that I am wrong. Maybe we are both right on some level. And you can't debate someone's personal truth, that's a fact.
I can't agree with Donks EVER, they have never been really part of the game before to begin with. No cards were all about Donking before Stormfront came along. Now we have a huge collection of cards that are ridiculously strong in terms of Energy Costs vs Damage Output. Macheap KO's a Basic for 1 regardless of HP, Luxape's 2 main attackers can potentially KO any Basic T1 despite requiring 2 for doing either 50 or 100. Beedril and Gyarados have the same thought, get stuff out and start hitting 60 and up for 1 or zero Energy. Then there is Crobat G that works with just about everything to get the KO like with Gengar for an obvious example.
So funny when just about everything that is popular can Donk. Good Games don't exist in such formats IMHO. Either you get your stuff out, or it's cakewalk for your opponent. So much fun I am having with that, oh yeah..... >_>
Can't you just say "I don't get you" and leave it with that, instead of feeling attacked by my comments?
I can't agree with Donks EVER, they have never been really part of the game before to begin with. No cards were all about Donking before Stormfront came along. Now we have a huge collection of cards that are ridiculously strong in terms of Energy Costs vs Damage Output. Macheap KO's a Basic for 1 regardless of HP, Luxape's 2 main attackers can potentially KO any Basic T1 despite requiring 2 for doing either 50 or 100. Beedril and Gyarados have the same thought, get stuff out and start hitting 60 and up for 1 or zero Energy. Then there is Crobat G that works with just about everything to get the KO like with Gengar for an obvious example.
So funny when just about everything that is popular can Donk. Good Games don't exist in such formats IMHO. Either you get your stuff out, or it's cakewalk for your opponent. So much fun I am having with that, oh yeah..... >_>
Can't you just say "I don't get you" and leave it with that, instead of feeling attacked by my comments?
hmmmm....the arguements you two put up are quite amusing to read...while I agree with af about a slightly stale metagame, I don't agree the cards are going downhill
yes, there are a large number of T1 and donk decks out there, not to mention the severe number of overly cheap SP decks (LuxApe topping the list)...this is due to the fact that there are a large number of members on forums such as these that are net-deckers...someone posts a deck idea or a deck that won an event, then all of a sudden, there are a million clones that pop-up...this is not due to the cards or it's creators, it is due to the lack of mental capacity for players to actually come up with good deck ideas and make them happen on their own...instead of players trying to find a way to beat said deck and still have a deck that is competitive against other decks, they just "mindlessly" copy the winning deck...this is something that is common in mostly all competitive TCGs
for example: there is this kid (even though he's about 25, mentally he's a kid) at one of my league stores, not exactly the greatest player in the world, but when he comes up with a good deck idea and puts it together to play with, he often makes play mistakes that end up costing him a many a game...so he starts browsing forums looking for well known decks to play, then he literally copies the deck and makes very minor changes...there's another player who is a pretty good player one of the top 10 players in the state of Kansas, he can come up with some pretty good deck ideas himself, but he too also tends to do a bit of net-decking...well, the good player had a Flygon/Palkia deck that was doing extremely well against alot of the meta at said league...so the kid, after losing to it with his own Flygon deck, asks to see the Flygon/Palkia deck and literally gets up goes and gets a piece of paper and a pen to copy the decklist...so last week, I play against the kid using my Vespiquen 4 deck (running Sceptile GE and Landmin), and after a horrible start for me and a pretty good start for him, he beats me 6 prizes - 0...afterwards, I tell him "nice deck", he goes "thanks", then I tell him "glad *good player's name* thought of it...let's just say the smile he had kinda disappeared after I called him on someone else's deck idea...all he could say was that he uses Lv. Max instead of Premiere Ball
as I said, that story is just an example of the kinds of players there are out there copying good decks, instead of trying to come up with their own good deck ideas, and that is why the meta is stale, not because of the card game itself, but because of the players or lack thereof of original deck ideas from the players
since I've been on the beach...I've posted one deck, it was my AMU rogue deck in it's original variant...all I got for advice to speed it up was, add Claydol, no one else could come up with anything else...which let me know, the majority of the members in the deck garage are just net-deckers..since then, I've made variants that made the deck much faster
so to conclude, IMO, it's not the card game that is going downhill, it's the lack of players with original ideas and original thought that is going downhill
yes, there are a large number of T1 and donk decks out there, not to mention the severe number of overly cheap SP decks (LuxApe topping the list)...this is due to the fact that there are a large number of members on forums such as these that are net-deckers...someone posts a deck idea or a deck that won an event, then all of a sudden, there are a million clones that pop-up...this is not due to the cards or it's creators, it is due to the lack of mental capacity for players to actually come up with good deck ideas and make them happen on their own...instead of players trying to find a way to beat said deck and still have a deck that is competitive against other decks, they just "mindlessly" copy the winning deck...this is something that is common in mostly all competitive TCGs
for example: there is this kid (even though he's about 25, mentally he's a kid) at one of my league stores, not exactly the greatest player in the world, but when he comes up with a good deck idea and puts it together to play with, he often makes play mistakes that end up costing him a many a game...so he starts browsing forums looking for well known decks to play, then he literally copies the deck and makes very minor changes...there's another player who is a pretty good player one of the top 10 players in the state of Kansas, he can come up with some pretty good deck ideas himself, but he too also tends to do a bit of net-decking...well, the good player had a Flygon/Palkia deck that was doing extremely well against alot of the meta at said league...so the kid, after losing to it with his own Flygon deck, asks to see the Flygon/Palkia deck and literally gets up goes and gets a piece of paper and a pen to copy the decklist...so last week, I play against the kid using my Vespiquen 4 deck (running Sceptile GE and Landmin), and after a horrible start for me and a pretty good start for him, he beats me 6 prizes - 0...afterwards, I tell him "nice deck", he goes "thanks", then I tell him "glad *good player's name* thought of it...let's just say the smile he had kinda disappeared after I called him on someone else's deck idea...all he could say was that he uses Lv. Max instead of Premiere Ball
as I said, that story is just an example of the kinds of players there are out there copying good decks, instead of trying to come up with their own good deck ideas, and that is why the meta is stale, not because of the card game itself, but because of the players or lack thereof of original deck ideas from the players
since I've been on the beach...I've posted one deck, it was my AMU rogue deck in it's original variant...all I got for advice to speed it up was, add Claydol, no one else could come up with anything else...which let me know, the majority of the members in the deck garage are just net-deckers..since then, I've made variants that made the deck much faster
so to conclude, IMO, it's not the card game that is going downhill, it's the lack of players with original ideas and original thought that is going downhill
You two should really stop fighting over pieces of cards. Your own opinions should go to the TCG discussions.
Anyhow, I believe pokemon is going uphill. IMO I think we are getting more for our money, TCG and game wise. We are getting better cards and more stuff to do in the games. ALthough the anime should just stop. I wish they could act as though 4 year olds arent your only audience.
I also don't like the pokemon, they do look the same but I guess there are only so many animals to model them off.
All and all the pokemon franchise is still standing strong and it should do for a thew more generations
Anyhow, I believe pokemon is going uphill. IMO I think we are getting more for our money, TCG and game wise. We are getting better cards and more stuff to do in the games. ALthough the anime should just stop. I wish they could act as though 4 year olds arent your only audience.
I also don't like the pokemon, they do look the same but I guess there are only so many animals to model them off.
All and all the pokemon franchise is still standing strong and it should do for a thew more generations
afstandopleren said:
I shouldn't feel attacked when each of your posts starts with you laughing?
And you do realise the game doesn't suddenly end T3? It is fun to play after that as as you further in the game, card's damage output drop comparitavely.
And I can tell you, when I played MightyTank(a breeze to set up T1-2), very rarely did I win first turn. Stopping donks is the express purpose of a bench. Most the time, my games actually went to Prize cards, and it'd be neck and neck by the end(seeing as Mightyena is very fast with good output but kills himself with Poison and low HP).
Anyway, it would seem we have polar views and perhaps we should leave it at an agreement to disagree.
Anyway, I suppose it is time to abandon the argument.
Wow, the first sensible thing has been said. I agree upon disagreeing and will abandon the argument.
for me just the manga is going downhill
everything else is going up
everything else is going up
Please keep this discussion civil. It is fine for one to state that they disagree with the position of another, but please do not resort to personal attacks, as it is not constructive to the discussion.
Personally, I am not all that happy with the current metagame. There are too many cards that are either disruptive, or allow for donks. To me, the close matches are the most satisfying ones. I really don't feel like I have accomplished anything when I get a T2 or T3 victory, and I don't feel very good when I lose T2 or T3. We've had Machamp and Kingdra both gain many early game victories, and to a lesser extent, Dialga G and Sableye. The game is centered around who sets up first and who is lucky, rather than applying strategy, along with getting lucky every once in a while, to get the game win.
In spite of this, I think the TCG has grown tremendously, and it shows much more complexity than it ever has, so I don't think the TCG is going downhill. Back in the days of Base Set, and even the EX series, many of the attacks either did damage or had status effects. Now, we have attacks with lots of different effects, and many cards to develop a strategy around. It will be interesting to see how it continues to develop.
The video games, on the other hand, I am not so sure about. The gym / evil team system feels largely outdated now, and I think the next generation could use some major innovations to refresh the gaming experience. Even if they stick with gyms, it would be better if they had different gyms that used different strategy sets, rather than different types. Using a Dugtrio against Lt. Surge required no skill, and resulted in an easy victory. If they could make the storyline as deep as the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon games, and overhaul parts of the gameplay so that it feels like something new (maybe add terrain effects on battles; flying water Pokemon on grass seemed kinda weird, just an example), I think it would benefit the series.
Breeding is too cumbersome at the moment. If there was a way to make it easier to get better stats, I think it would make the game more enjoyable.
So overall, I think the series is still doing well, but not as strong as it used to be. Considering we have nearly 500 Pokemon now, it will be interesting to see whether they continue to add lots more monsters, or begin to slow down and work more with the Pokemon they already have. I think we have already seen some signs of that, through the new evolutions to older Pokemon.
Personally, I am not all that happy with the current metagame. There are too many cards that are either disruptive, or allow for donks. To me, the close matches are the most satisfying ones. I really don't feel like I have accomplished anything when I get a T2 or T3 victory, and I don't feel very good when I lose T2 or T3. We've had Machamp and Kingdra both gain many early game victories, and to a lesser extent, Dialga G and Sableye. The game is centered around who sets up first and who is lucky, rather than applying strategy, along with getting lucky every once in a while, to get the game win.
In spite of this, I think the TCG has grown tremendously, and it shows much more complexity than it ever has, so I don't think the TCG is going downhill. Back in the days of Base Set, and even the EX series, many of the attacks either did damage or had status effects. Now, we have attacks with lots of different effects, and many cards to develop a strategy around. It will be interesting to see how it continues to develop.
The video games, on the other hand, I am not so sure about. The gym / evil team system feels largely outdated now, and I think the next generation could use some major innovations to refresh the gaming experience. Even if they stick with gyms, it would be better if they had different gyms that used different strategy sets, rather than different types. Using a Dugtrio against Lt. Surge required no skill, and resulted in an easy victory. If they could make the storyline as deep as the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon games, and overhaul parts of the gameplay so that it feels like something new (maybe add terrain effects on battles; flying water Pokemon on grass seemed kinda weird, just an example), I think it would benefit the series.
Breeding is too cumbersome at the moment. If there was a way to make it easier to get better stats, I think it would make the game more enjoyable.
So overall, I think the series is still doing well, but not as strong as it used to be. Considering we have nearly 500 Pokemon now, it will be interesting to see whether they continue to add lots more monsters, or begin to slow down and work more with the Pokemon they already have. I think we have already seen some signs of that, through the new evolutions to older Pokemon.
J
Juliacoolo
It's going downhill for die-hard fans, and Up for the rich noobs who are obsessed with the anime and uber legendaries.
Anime is definately downhill than what it was before. TCG was better in some ways before, but it's definately grown, so it's uphill. The games unfortunately are downhill as well, and considering manga was always in Japan, I'd say most people don't or didn't care. :F
dmaster out.
dmaster out.
Well, when you look at participation at tournies and etc, and see how large the audience has grown.. I'd definitely have to say that Pokemon is NOT going downhill.
Since you have the re-introduction effect of a new decade of kids jumping in, it's basically like Pokemon when it first came out. I've been looking around Target recently whenever I go, and I always see a parent buying their kid Pokemon cards. With the toys, they're almost completely gone, so they must be doing something right.
IMHO, the games are fantastic this gen. It took warming up to, probably because I loved R/S/E and I hadn't played it (Pokemon) for awhile, but I love almost all of the Pokemon designs now. So games have basically nowhere to go but up. (Especially with this gorgeous new HG/SS coming out. P: ) Well, technically, they COULD go down, but with the large fanbase, the varied amount of third party adventures, etc, they really can't mess up.
Never read the manga, so I have no idea whether it went up or down. (Though I have been meaning to read it for quite some time). The anime... Well, the dubbing sure sucks here in America, but PInternational knows who they're targeting, which is their most recent fanbase. And they are doing a mighty fine job. Even if some of the episodes can be repetitive and the Dawn character is reaally irritating. I think it'll go up, especially since the quality of the movies has been excellent. And as for the TCG, I play Leafeon, and I am sort of irritated by the format right now. But with the largest tournament EVER at US Nationals... You really can't say it's going downhill.
Marketing and quality wise, I don't think Pokemon is anywhere close to going down.
Since you have the re-introduction effect of a new decade of kids jumping in, it's basically like Pokemon when it first came out. I've been looking around Target recently whenever I go, and I always see a parent buying their kid Pokemon cards. With the toys, they're almost completely gone, so they must be doing something right.
IMHO, the games are fantastic this gen. It took warming up to, probably because I loved R/S/E and I hadn't played it (Pokemon) for awhile, but I love almost all of the Pokemon designs now. So games have basically nowhere to go but up. (Especially with this gorgeous new HG/SS coming out. P: ) Well, technically, they COULD go down, but with the large fanbase, the varied amount of third party adventures, etc, they really can't mess up.
Never read the manga, so I have no idea whether it went up or down. (Though I have been meaning to read it for quite some time). The anime... Well, the dubbing sure sucks here in America, but PInternational knows who they're targeting, which is their most recent fanbase. And they are doing a mighty fine job. Even if some of the episodes can be repetitive and the Dawn character is reaally irritating. I think it'll go up, especially since the quality of the movies has been excellent. And as for the TCG, I play Leafeon, and I am sort of irritated by the format right now. But with the largest tournament EVER at US Nationals... You really can't say it's going downhill.
Marketing and quality wise, I don't think Pokemon is anywhere close to going down.