Yes, please, if you would like to discuss religion in general, refer to the religion thread. 
Pope Francis, on Gay Catholic Priests, Inquires, "Who am I to judge?"
- Thread starter le Roi-Soleil
- Start date
ChillBill said:
Marriage stems from a social/legal contract between two people, not the bible. The way I understand it was conducted in ancient times with no religious constraints. The church put their "branding" on it later.
Also,
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/31/ancient-christian-church-gay-marriages_n_3678315.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/31/ancient-christian-church-gay-marriages_n_3678315.html
It comes down to whether you believe in the Bible or not. If you do, you know that marriage was first staged by God, not man. I think that's what Billy boy over there is getting at.
Mmm I'm not sure how I feel on this one...
While it's certainly true that we are not one to judge another, by the writings in the bible and his religious beliefs he should be against Gay Marriage. I think that he's not coming out and saying that gay marriage is okay, rather I think he's saying that we shouldn't discriminate gays because they are human beings as well with the same rights as you and I... Of course weather or not gay marriage is right or lawful is another matter entirely which I try to avoid because it's hard to keep my emotions in check when I get fired up about something.
Since I myself am a Catholic I do not believe that gays should have the right to marry and that practicing gays have no business being Christian, but like I said that's not the topic at hand here. We're not talking about weather or not God exists, we're talking about what the Pope said...
While it's certainly true that we are not one to judge another, by the writings in the bible and his religious beliefs he should be against Gay Marriage. I think that he's not coming out and saying that gay marriage is okay, rather I think he's saying that we shouldn't discriminate gays because they are human beings as well with the same rights as you and I... Of course weather or not gay marriage is right or lawful is another matter entirely which I try to avoid because it's hard to keep my emotions in check when I get fired up about something.
Since I myself am a Catholic I do not believe that gays should have the right to marry and that practicing gays have no business being Christian, but like I said that's not the topic at hand here. We're not talking about weather or not God exists, we're talking about what the Pope said...
The Pikachu Mafia said:
That is, perhaps, one of the most disgusting things I have heard in my entirety on these forums. What a great way to "spread love and show tolerance" to the gays, because after all, "they are humans." Oh, sure, let's spread "tolerance" by deterring gays and telling them they have no business accepting Jesus Christ, the lord and savior, as their almighty redeemer. Yes, that's a surefire way to spread love. Sarcasm intended, by the way.
What a bigoted statement. So having gay intercourse means that an individual cannot be a Christian? Fine. If you practice that kind of low-class intolerance, I pity ANY soul who wants to join your church. I don't know what religion you're from, but surely, it doesn't sound one bit like the "loving, accepting, tolerant 'Christians'" that you pass your religion off to be.
You have something against me bro? You seem to not be liking my posts.
I never said that gays can't be Christian, I said that practicing gays have no business trying to be devote Christians when they are going against their very beliefs. I can see that rubbed you the wrong way, so let me be even more specific; the gay population who is in an active relationship and does not recognize that what they're doing to considered wrong in the Church have no business being in the Church if they do not intend to repent and give up the relationship. Actually if you study theology then you would know that feeling an attraction towards the same sex isn't necessarily considered a sin in the Catholic Church, it only becomes a sin when you act upon such attractions. The Church calls gays within herself to be chased, I am specifically talking about gays who disobey the Church in that regard, how can they claim to be for Christ yet at the same time go against His teachings and the Bible's word without any intention to repent? The two just simply can't coexist. Gays can be Christian by all means, but to be Christian means to not have an active relationship with the same sex among other things. I'm guessing that you're not a Christian since you do not seem to know very much on the matter considering the Church and gays? That is understandable I suppose but please remember that I'm not bashing you for your beliefs, your the one calling names here, not me.
I never said that gays can't be Christian, I said that practicing gays have no business trying to be devote Christians when they are going against their very beliefs. I can see that rubbed you the wrong way, so let me be even more specific; the gay population who is in an active relationship and does not recognize that what they're doing to considered wrong in the Church have no business being in the Church if they do not intend to repent and give up the relationship. Actually if you study theology then you would know that feeling an attraction towards the same sex isn't necessarily considered a sin in the Catholic Church, it only becomes a sin when you act upon such attractions. The Church calls gays within herself to be chased, I am specifically talking about gays who disobey the Church in that regard, how can they claim to be for Christ yet at the same time go against His teachings and the Bible's word without any intention to repent? The two just simply can't coexist. Gays can be Christian by all means, but to be Christian means to not have an active relationship with the same sex among other things. I'm guessing that you're not a Christian since you do not seem to know very much on the matter considering the Church and gays? That is understandable I suppose but please remember that I'm not bashing you for your beliefs, your the one calling names here, not me.
Colress said:
Its wrong to say that you can't be homosexual and christian at the same time. You can. Although, Christianity is comprised of following God's commandments. One of his commandments being, you can not have sexual intercourse with the same sex, you must remain celibate for him if you are homosexual. It is frowned upon, and it will forever stay frowned upon in the bible. However, people don't HAVE the right to judge.
In any case, we would also have to wonder why ANY one of us has business being Christian by that standard.
I believe he is spot on in his first paragraph though (which is why I liked it). We shouldn't discriminate against people because they are human beings. The Pope is NOT condoning it, he is just not judging it. Which is why I liked what the Pope was doing.
If we follow the biblical logic. Gays are sinners. Jesus came to earth to help sinners, and not the people who thought they were "righteous".
Edit:
If they had sexual intercourse repeatedly without any moving away from it, then, even then God still allows them to repent. And Its something that I think they fight against, like an addiction, something that is born with them that they struggle with. Although, that doesn't in any way Condemn them, nor should we judge them for it.The Pikachu Mafia said:
Our definitions of christians may be different since I'm non-denominational, but isn't it to simply believe in Christ? We are all sinful and try our best?
Please, Christians, locate the quote in the Bible in which Jesus Christ teaches against homosexuality. Enlighten me.
Did Jesus' birth not signify the New Covenant in which the archaic, absurd laws of the Old Testament (anti-women, anti-gay, eating shellfish, wearing clothing with one continuous thread) were disregarded (except the Ten Commandments)?
Did Jesus' birth not signify the New Covenant in which the archaic, absurd laws of the Old Testament (anti-women, anti-gay, eating shellfish, wearing clothing with one continuous thread) were disregarded (except the Ten Commandments)?
Colress said:
You ask, I shall. if you are looking for something said by Jesus, I can give you this: First, a man must only have sex when married. And, the bible constantly defines marriage as man and woman. Jesus refers to marriage here:
Matthew 19:4-5 "Haven't you read," He replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?"
Now, Any sex WITHOUT marriage would be a sin! It would fall under: Adultery, Fornication, Lust.
Mark 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. (21) For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, (22) Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: (23) All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
So, if you aren't married, every time you have sex would be a sin. In fact, its a sin to look at someone with lust. You must remain celibate until you are married. To think that homosexual sex would be an exception does seem a bit strange, doesn't it?
Well, LGBT can get married in what, twelve, thirteen states now? So it's neither lust nor evil if you're married, correct?
Colress said:
Normally that logic would be correct, but its not a marriage in God's eyes. You could go off and have a pretend-wedding, is it recognized as a marriage? No. It doesn't fit the conditions. God gave the conditions, so while that marriage is accepted in society...
It wouldn't be accepted in God's eyes, it'd be just like a pretend wedding. Things would still be the same. (Sort of why I don't get people pushing for religious gay marriage.)
@Fancy: Yes I more or less agree with what your saying, there is always the opportunity to repent as God did come to earth to save and help the sinners. That being said even though God does always leave the opportunity for them to repent, Christian or not, they are committing a heresy if they remain Christian with no intent on ever changing their ways. I'm not judging them or condemning them, I have no idea on what their lives are like and so that should be left up to God and God alone. I just don't get why they insist on remaining Christian and actively gay since the two contradict each other, I suppose I could have worded my sentences better though. It's refreshing to have another Christian to talk to about these things once in a while.
@Colress: Jesus did not directly say anything about homosexuality, but not everything in the old testament was completely disregarded either. He also stated that marriage should be between one man and one woman (read Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9. Also read Romans 1:26-27) Gay marriage has always been frowned upon in the Bible in both the New and Old testament. I could easily give you another half dozen quotes or so from both testaments if you still don't believe me.
Edit: Ninja'd by Fancy, once again I must agree. Also it has clearly be set that government has nothing to do with religion and it should remain that way. If America adopted Christianity as their main religion then gays you have a much harder time passing the laws that they already just barely got trough to begin with. That is why we have freedom of religion to prevent as much discrimination as possible and to separate religion and government. Just because everyone is doing it that doesn't make it right...
@Colress: Jesus did not directly say anything about homosexuality, but not everything in the old testament was completely disregarded either. He also stated that marriage should be between one man and one woman (read Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9. Also read Romans 1:26-27) Gay marriage has always been frowned upon in the Bible in both the New and Old testament. I could easily give you another half dozen quotes or so from both testaments if you still don't believe me.
Edit: Ninja'd by Fancy, once again I must agree. Also it has clearly be set that government has nothing to do with religion and it should remain that way. If America adopted Christianity as their main religion then gays you have a much harder time passing the laws that they already just barely got trough to begin with. That is why we have freedom of religion to prevent as much discrimination as possible and to separate religion and government. Just because everyone is doing it that doesn't make it right...
The Pikachu Mafia said:
Quotes which are not the word of god, but from people who came many, many, years after him. Words that have been translated, revised, and maybe even rewritten by people in the past. One of the big flaws here. These things possibly pass on the prejudice of people who didn't even know Jesus. I believe in the 10 commandments thing, but I don't get why people shove the Bible down people's throats. Believe in it or not, people have the right to chose their own path in life, and not be judged for it. If there is a god that is so against homosexuality, let him do the judging!
Continuing from my last post, religion has nothing to do with marriage in general. It is a legal institution belonging to the people. You don't have to have the religious part to get married unless you are asking to be recognized by that religion/god. This is what some of our politicians in office clearly don't understand.
Now, what I want to ask is: If the Pope says "Who am I to judge?" I think he is saying the same thing I just said. If the Pope is the closest thing to god on Earth, and says this, what gives other people the nerve to say something against a homosexual? Clearly this is only their undoctored and unjustified prejudice shining through.
Exemplary! Thank you Shining Raikou for saying what I was trying to get through in my earlier posts.
We all sin according to the bible and homosexuality is no different than another sin. They are all equal in God's eyes, we shouldn't be saying anything about it and treat them just as we treat others! The prejudice needs to be eradicated in order for the Church and all Christians to take a step forward.
If the Pope can spread a non-judgmental/non-condemning attitude, than the majority of the catholic denomination will follow and we can focus on the rest of the denominations. We can hear less (or not even at all!) about Christians doing horrendous things to people in the name of their faith.
We all sin according to the bible and homosexuality is no different than another sin. They are all equal in God's eyes, we shouldn't be saying anything about it and treat them just as we treat others! The prejudice needs to be eradicated in order for the Church and all Christians to take a step forward.
If the Pope can spread a non-judgmental/non-condemning attitude, than the majority of the catholic denomination will follow and we can focus on the rest of the denominations. We can hear less (or not even at all!) about Christians doing horrendous things to people in the name of their faith.
Hmm well Matthew and Mark didn't live "many many" years after Jesus, in fact they lived in the same time period but whatever. I also was not trying to shove the Bible down his throat, he asked for quotes and I gave them to him.
As far as the marriage thing, it was around before Christianity. However a Christian marriage is branched off of the Hebrews which is a much older religion; also matrimony (the word I'll use for a Christian wedding) and a public union are two different things. If that's what you were trying to say then I would agree, but it's hard for me to tell right now because I'm half asleep. Also I don't think the Pope was saying that he was for or against gays, it sounds something more along the lines of "hey guys we shouldn't be gossiping about others so much, we should just leave stuff like this between them and God" which is a fairly neutral statement that I support.
Discussing religion on a Pokemon forum feels really weird. xD
As far as the marriage thing, it was around before Christianity. However a Christian marriage is branched off of the Hebrews which is a much older religion; also matrimony (the word I'll use for a Christian wedding) and a public union are two different things. If that's what you were trying to say then I would agree, but it's hard for me to tell right now because I'm half asleep. Also I don't think the Pope was saying that he was for or against gays, it sounds something more along the lines of "hey guys we shouldn't be gossiping about others so much, we should just leave stuff like this between them and God" which is a fairly neutral statement that I support.
Discussing religion on a Pokemon forum feels really weird. xD
Since I cannot find the post without losing my sanity and some faith for humanity, I just want to point out that about half of male christians have pre-marital sex.
I agree that that is also an abomination, I never said that it wasn't. The sin of lust is a sin weather or not you're homo or heterosexual, Christians are called to be chased until marriage and even then they should only have the sole purpose of having children at heart instead of pleasure. I didn't mention this earlier though as I thought it was irrelevant to the matter. It does disgust me though seeing as how we are such hypocrites in life. Fortunately that is why we are given the opportunity to repent and change our ways, according to our faith of course.
Get back on topic, please.