Primal Kyogre EX Variants

This is my decklist, when i build the deck i had several troubles again all decks i play against, then, I add the retrievals and the letters and the deck is so full of energy and movility (thanks to keldeo)

Suggestions and comments are accepted.

3-3 Primal Kyogre
2 keldeo EX
1 Manaphy PLS
1 Suicune
1 Jirachi EX

4 Juniper
3 N
1 Birch
2 Skyla
2 Lyssandre
1 Xerosic
1 Teammates
1 Colress

2 professor Letter
2 Energy Retrievval
1 corneta
2 Float Stone
3 Dive Ball
1 Ultra ball
1 Computere
2 VS Seeker
3 Spirit Link
1 Manito
1 Escape Rope

3 Stadium

12 Energy


Please remember that if you are looking for deck advice to post in the Deck garage. Lists should be posted in Competitive Play to add to the discussion. Thanks! ~Camoclone
 
why is this tier 3? in my experience it is very strong against most matchups. Also how do you counter this without virgen
 
SHBandit said:
why is this tier 3? in my experience it is very strong against most matchups. Also how do you counter this without virgen
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I have been testing this deck online quite a lot. It performs quite well amd sets up fast and consistently, but the weakness is pretty clear:

It's the fact that streaming attacks isn't completely straightforward. You often get the first Kyogre set up, but in order to stream its attack you either need a continuous wave of double attachments, or a second P-Kyogre and Keldeo & float stone (of course you can use switch sometimes, but this isn't consistent). A lot of the time what happens is your second P-Kyogre isn't ready and all your energy is on Keldeo or some other Pokemon. And that can be good... but, you just don't know how good. It is all a bit random and unknown.

I think pretty much every top deck has a powerful attack that they can stream reliably: landobats has one energy attackers; Flareon and Nightmarch can get an easy Pokemon out and make a single attachment; Toad just needs a Toad and a DCE; Yveltal can always set you up for a 2HKO while building up the bench with Y cyclone. P-Kyogre just requires more things to go right in order to stream those attacks.

This being said... I have had a lot of people scoop at 5 or 6 prizes. Once they have 30 on a bunch of EX and see you can stream attacks, it's crushing. That makes me want to persist and come up with an even more consistent build,
 
In my experience i see alot of people give up when you use suicune and rough seas and they cant do enough damage to knock it out. You are probably right about the streaming attacks bit though. i'll see how testing goes.
 
Primal Kyogre EX with Suicune and Pyroar seems strong. Just run around 4 fire energies so you have a chance against virgen.
 
MountainDrew said:
Primal Kyogre EX with Suicune and Pyroar seems strong. Just run around 4 fire energies so you have a chance against virgen.
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Would hurt the deck build too much.

It is already quite a challenge to get two P-Kyogre and Keldeo with a float stone, plus 4 water energy. Adding a 2-2 of another Pokemon and taking out water for fire would hurt your setup a lot. Space would be a slight issue too.

Generally, I would say that P-Kyogre is so powerful, first and foremost your goal should be to allow it to execute its own strategy as quickly and consistently as possible. If you need to tech, add a few cards but don't change it too much. And if you expect a lot of VirGen just don't play it.
 
I've seen a player play the deck with Outrage Reshiram and think its needed for the deck to beat VG.
Its interesting because you only need 2 fire to do its attack and if you move back a water and a fire off P Kyogre's attack, then you are only 1 fire energy short of the energy fulfillment. It works well with the heavy prof's letter count. And even if you don't get it, outrage is a pain for VG to OHKO. They either need to Gbooster Reshi or need a genesect with a muscle band and deoxys EX. Usually, they'll set up a 2hko with Virizion, but if you get a lysandre, you are golden.
 
Elbow said:
I've seen a player play the deck with Outrage Reshiram and think its needed for the deck to beat VG.
Its interesting because you only need 2 fire to do its attack and if you move back a water and a fire off P Kyogre's attack, then you are only 1 fire energy short of the energy fulfillment. It works well with the heavy prof's letter count. And even if you don't get it, outrage is a pain for VG to OHKO. They either need to Gbooster Reshi or need a genesect with a muscle band and deoxys EX. Usually, they'll set up a 2hko with Virizion, but if you get a lysandre, you are golden.
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A lot of people find that VirGen can play around Outrage Reshiram quite easily: they just don't attack until you have the G-Booster or Deoxys and muscle band.

I was thinking that if you want to tech for VirGen then you may want to run Spiritomb, and an extra consistency card instead of your own ACE-SPEC. A couple of weakness policies is probably a good idea because if they don't get megaphoned off then nothing they can do will one-shot you. I've been toying with the inclusion of a muscle band too- since it means you can then one-shot the opposing Genesect.

But really, if you expect to run into a lot of VirGen maybe you shouldn't be playing the deck at all.
 
Consider Victini-EX@Victory Piece. It can set you up if you start with it, and it OHKOs every relevant Grass-type out there for free.
 
And what about running a 1- or 2-2 line of Masquearin? By doing that, you could easily swap your tools and reuse them so things like Weakness policy or Muscle band can easily be dropped on a Primal Kyogre, making for you opponent much more harder to get over it .

But yeah, overall I think that Virgen is a seriously bad matchup.
 
Talkingcat said:
Elbow said:
I've seen a player play the deck with Outrage Reshiram and think its needed for the deck to beat VG.
Its interesting because you only need 2 fire to do its attack and if you move back a water and a fire off P Kyogre's attack, then you are only 1 fire energy short of the energy fulfillment. It works well with the heavy prof's letter count. And even if you don't get it, outrage is a pain for VG to OHKO. They either need to Gbooster Reshi or need a genesect with a muscle band and deoxys EX. Usually, they'll set up a 2hko with Virizion, but if you get a lysandre, you are golden.
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A lot of people find that VirGen can play around Outrage Reshiram quite easily: they just don't attack until you have the G-Booster or Deoxys and muscle band.

I was thinking that if you want to tech for VirGen then you may want to run Spiritomb, and an extra consistency card instead of your own ACE-SPEC. A couple of weakness policies is probably a good idea because if they don't get megaphoned off then nothing they can do will one-shot you. I've been toying with the inclusion of a muscle band too- since it means you can then one-shot the opposing Genesect.

But really, if you expect to run into a lot of VirGen maybe you shouldn't be playing the deck at all.
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1st, even if you run spiritomb you run an ace spec no matter what. Just because you run him doesn't mean that a Dowsing machine or a Comp Search isn't a viable card for the deck.
2nd, if you have room for spirit links, weakness policies, AND a way to remove tools, then the deck is wayyyyy too clunky. If you have to tech that much for one matchup then I'd agree with you play another deck. But I think there are better solutions.

I think that if you run 2 outrage reshirams and 2 fire energy you are golden. If you move back a fire and a water to a reshi with Tidal Storm, you are threatening your opponent's EX's by saying 'Hey, kill Kyogre and you are gonna get Blue Flare OHKOed son.' And if they do go after the Reshi, odds are is that you'll be able to respond with the Primal Kyogre and OHKO it with the 30 extra damage you did from a Tidal Storm.
While the fire energy discarding is inefficient, I think the deck runs energy retrievals...if not at least a Lysandre's Trump.
 
Primal Kyogre decks just do not have the room to run a 2-2 Masqarain line. Like Elbow said it would make the deck clunky and unlike Primal Groudon EX they could just megaphone off your tools before you could use them for there purpose. I like the Idea of adding fire energy and reshiram in the deck but I think you could add fire 2 energy and Charizard EX with combustion blast and have good results, The Charizard EX can also be used as a backup attacker and has potential to OHKO more pokemon and will probably live longer than reshiram.
 
^ Blue flare needs two fire energy, it would be difficult to charge up reliably with only two fire energy in the whole deck.

I don't agree with "if you have room for spirit links, weakness policies and a way to remove tools the deck is way too clunky". Most competitive decks have and use a little space for techs based on the meta. A P-Kyogre deck can run very smoothly indeed with spirit links and also something like tool retriever or Xerosic. Adding weakness policy won't suddenly make it really clunky, it will just make it a little less consistent, like any other tech will. And I don't think that adding 1-2 weakness policies will hurt consistency more than moving to two colours.
 
The weakness policies wouldn't be a problem, the problem would be trying to fit a 2-2 Masqarain line in the deck. The deck then would become too clunky and would lose consistency.
 
Ironman131 said:
The weakness policies wouldn't be a problem, the problem would be trying to fit a 2-2 Masqarain line in the deck. The deck then would become too clunky and would lose consistency.
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Yes, I agree with that. Masquerain does make the deck a bit clunky. Even though in some ways it lets you streamline your item selection, it's just having a whole evolution line- plus one you can't find with Korinna.
 
cardgjammer said:
I agree. Good decks based on P-Kyogre need more water pokemon to work, while pokemon of any other type, including Masquerain, will hurt the consistency of this deck. In fact, how good is this deck without Keldeo-ex to eliminate status if P-Kyogre gets Lasered and put to sleep while poisoned and unable to wake up and respond? That will put P-Kyogre-EX at risk of getting KO'ed to 2 Landorus-EX Hammerheads when 2 SEs is attached plus 1 MB is attached to Landorus-EX and/or 1 FS is in play to assist the attacking Landorus-EX to achieve the implied KO to the active P-Kyogre-EX on both hammerheads, while the benched P-Kyogre-EX takes 30 snipe damage per hammerhead...

^ And isn't Landorus-EX weak to water? If P-Kyogre can't respond w/ a hit for weakness, that's a huge blow to the player's chances of victory unless he/she powers up another P-Kyogre on bench, but what if he/she doesn't have the spirit link to ensure that 2 energies are attached before the end of the turn prior to the turn of the active P-Kyogre-Ex KO and benched P-Kyogre forceout to ensure the attachment of 2 more energies, due to A-Growth, can be done to ensure P-Kyogre-EX is fully charged for a KO in response? Since you need 3 waters plus 1 colorless in order to attack, since EXes put you back 2 prizes from the opponent, failure to ensure that 2 energies are attached to the benched kyogre-ex before spirit link attachment and Primal Reversion in the above scenario would likely mean game. Another reason why P-Kyogre-EX is in Tier 3 right now: Even Landorus-EX beats it, despite water weakness... :(

edit: The above assumes no rough seas in play, and no bats are on the landorus's side. Although bats make a kyogre-ex ko more likely after 2 sneaky bite ability uses plus FS plus 2 SEs plus 1 MB, all coming from the landobats player... Of course, Hawlucha's flying press is a better choice if you prefer solo KOs...
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I don't agree with your logic how Landorus beats Kyogre despite the Water Weakness. Landorus can deal a realistic maximum of 90 damage to Kyogre while Kyogre OHKO's Landorus in return. Also Rough Seas easily messes up Landorus's math and erases Hammerhead and Surprise Bite damage. Kyogre will not stay asleep due to laser because Fighting variants don't even play laser, but even if they did, that's what Keldeo is there for. You mention Keldeo in your argument, but it seems that for whatever reason you chose to remove it from the equation. Your argument also neglects to mention that there is a 25% chance of sleep going into your turn with laser, and even if all of this unlikely stuff happens, you can still switch out of status. I think you went so far in depth with your argument that you lost sight of the point you were trying to make.
 
Mora said:
cardgjammer said:
I agree. Good decks based on P-Kyogre need more water pokemon to work, while pokemon of any other type, including Masquerain, will hurt the consistency of this deck. In fact, how good is this deck without Keldeo-ex to eliminate status if P-Kyogre gets Lasered and put to sleep while poisoned and unable to wake up and respond? That will put P-Kyogre-EX at risk of getting KO'ed to 2 Landorus-EX Hammerheads when 2 SEs is attached plus 1 MB is attached to Landorus-EX and/or 1 FS is in play to assist the attacking Landorus-EX to achieve the implied KO to the active P-Kyogre-EX on both hammerheads, while the benched P-Kyogre-EX takes 30 snipe damage per hammerhead...

^ And isn't Landorus-EX weak to water? If P-Kyogre can't respond w/ a hit for weakness, that's a huge blow to the player's chances of victory unless he/she powers up another P-Kyogre on bench, but what if he/she doesn't have the spirit link to ensure that 2 energies are attached before the end of the turn prior to the turn of the active P-Kyogre-Ex KO and benched P-Kyogre forceout to ensure the attachment of 2 more energies, due to A-Growth, can be done to ensure P-Kyogre-EX is fully charged for a KO in response? Since you need 3 waters plus 1 colorless in order to attack, since EXes put you back 2 prizes from the opponent, failure to ensure that 2 energies are attached to the benched kyogre-ex before spirit link attachment and Primal Reversion in the above scenario would likely mean game. Another reason why P-Kyogre-EX is in Tier 3 right now: Even Landorus-EX beats it, despite water weakness... :(

edit: The above assumes no rough seas in play, and no bats are on the landorus's side. Although bats make a kyogre-ex ko more likely after 2 sneaky bite ability uses plus FS plus 2 SEs plus 1 MB, all coming from the landobats player... Of course, Hawlucha's flying press is a better choice if you prefer solo KOs...
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I don't agree with your logic how Landorus beats Kyogre despite the Water Weakness. Landorus can deal a realistic maximum of 90 damage to Kyogre while Kyogre OHKO's Landorus in return. Also Rough Seas easily messes up Landorus's math and erases Hammerhead and Surprise Bite damage. Kyogre will not stay asleep due to laser because Fighting variants don't even play laser, but even if they did, that's what Keldeo is there for. You mention Keldeo in your argument, but it seems that for whatever reason you chose to remove it from the equation. Your argument also neglects to mention that there is a 25% chance of sleep going into your turn with laser, and even if all of this unlikely stuff happens, you can still switch out of status. I think you went so far in depth with your argument that you lost sight of the point you were trying to make.
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Thank you for clarifying my error.

Upon further analysis of my post, moments after it was written, I tried to water it down, realizing my error: Hawlucha w/ 1-2 SE, Silver Bangle, and FS 2HKOes P-Kyogre-EX in a much more likely fashion than Landorus-EX alone after Bat damage, a far cry than the things I stated in error on my last post here, and given the fact that Hawlucha is a possible tech for Landobats decks to better deal w/ the Exes...

^ If you think it doesn't... then consider my post a big mistake...
 
I have been looking at the possible addition of Articuno RS16 for its ability to keep you supplied with Water Energies at a low cost, low retreat cost and the fact that you can put it in in a pinch when you don't want to give up two prizes and want some more time to set up. Opinions?
 
Hoshiko said:
I have been looking at the possible addition of Articuno RS16 for its ability to keep you supplied with Water Energies at a low cost, low retreat cost and the fact that you can put it in in a pinch when you don't want to give up two prizes and want some more time to set up. Opinions?
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I would like to see some list with the new cards from RSK, i was thinking that Mega Turbo and Articuno must be the cards in the Kyogre Deck.
 
Not sure I like Mega Turbo in the deck. Tidal Storm preserves your Energy, meaning after you get 4 Energy on the first Kyogre, the rest should be easy to set up. Since Mega Turbo only gets one Energy, I'd think Energy Retrieval and Professor's Letter would be better options for powering up a Kyogre, since they get 2, while Mega Turbo only gets 1. The only time Mega Turbo would be really helpful is on the second turn. It could potentially allow you to use Tidal Storm on turn 2, but that seems very difficult to pull off. You have to have Primal Kyogre, Spirit Link, 2 Energy to attach, an Energy in the discard, and Mega Turbo. Don't think you'll be hitting that too often.

The regular Articuno doesn't seem particularly useful either. You'd rather power up Kyogre manually than use Find Ice, only to be N'd out of that hand.

One card I thought would be really useful is the Delta Plus Articuno. The deck lacks a really strong non EX attacker (Plasma Kyurem's okay at best, and Suicune can't be powered up by Tidal Storm due to Safeguard). All it takes to power it up is a Tidal Storm onto it, then 1 attachment from hand. And of course Delta Plus is an incredibly Trait. On average Tri Edge is doing 60-100, which is at least enough to finish off EXs Kyogre has already hit, giving you 3 prizes as opposed to 2. It also gives the deck a much better match up against non-EX decks. It can give you 2 prizes, while only giving your opponent 1 in return. Thoughts?
 
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