Discussion R.I.P. Korrina

[SpoonLarry]

Strong energy is just a bit too good. +10 damage is fine but +20 is too good considering how good draw is. They do lose a lot damage output but they got new cards that are pretty good. My deck is pretty good against a lot of things but I dont expect you to understand that based on your comment. Not sure what your issue is against me but it needs to stop.

I also have no issues dealing with special energy so I dont know where you got that idea from. The problem is the stackable +20 damage with energy recovery options.

The problem is that its very difficult to have a constructive discussion about any topic when all you talk about it is how things effect your deck specifically, and have nothing to add to how it actually effects the meta itself and its not even your thread, its seems very intrusive tbh. Every time someone makes a suggestion whether it pertains to you or not if it doesn't work for you it doesn't work for anyone. Instead of working around your problems you demand that they shouldn't exists. You play Ho-Oh EX and I commend you for that, its not an easy deck to make work, but there is also many things you can do with it, and a lot of Pokemon that work well with it, ability lock shouldn't hurt you that much as most of the abilities are quality of life abilities, they aren't essential to the deck functioning, Like Smeargle or Togakiss, Max Elixir should be your best friend, and with the ability to heal there is no reason why you shouldn't be running rainbow energy unless you are that afraid of Jirachi, and even still you can hit a bench Pokemon for 30 and fighting Pokemon shouldn't even be a wory for you, I know because I have battles my friends Ho-Oh deck many times with my Garchop deck and it's not easy for me to KO and my sashes are hard to keep intact with the bench dmg, anyways now I am being intrusive by changing the topic, my suggestion is you start your own thread and discus how Ho-Oh can fit into the new rotation.

 

[poke4trade]

Ya, that sounds right @crystal_pidgeot. I run Ho-oh a similar way too. Though, I'm not sure how Ho-oh will work without Manetric in the next format. I'm just saying as long there is a hard counter to a card, I feel ok about it. Strong energy has a couple of hard counters to the card. I feel it will balanced next season. Man, I own a play set of Ho-oh Ex's I best figure out a way to play them next season. I hate seeing my cash go to waste.

Anybody have a Pokemon crystal ball I can borrow? I only want to spend my money on the good cards next season.

 

[SpoonLarry]

Ya, that sounds right @crystal_pidgeot. I run Ho-oh a similar way too. Though, I'm not sure how Ho-oh will work without Manetric in the next format. I'm just saying as long there is a hard counter to a card, I feel ok about it. Strong energy has a couple of hard counters to the card. I feel it will balanced next season. Man, I own a play set of Ho-oh Ex's I best figure out a way to play them next season. I hate seeing my cash go to waste.

Anybody have a Pokemon crystal ball I can borrow? I only want to spend my money on the good cards next season.

Water is going to be a good option to go with, Manaphy for free retreat, and Glacion Regice would pair very nicely. Max Elixir will become your new primary source of energy acceleration and id say 4w/3g/3l/2f/2 rainbow lineup would be consistent enough while not being too clunky. Deck doesnt rely at all on abilities so Garbo should not be an issue. Stuff like Togakiss would be too clunky tbh, even manetric felt that way with my testing and sometimes felt like manetric did everything while Ho-Oh just stayed back and watched.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

The problem is that its very difficult to have a constructive discussion about any topic when all you talk about it is how things effect your deck specifically, and have nothing to add to how it actually effects the meta itself and its not even your thread, its seems very intrusive tbh. Every time someone makes a suggestion whether it pertains to you or not if it doesn't work for you it doesn't work for anyone. Instead of working around your problems you demand that they shouldn't exists. You play Ho-Oh EX and I commend you for that, its not an easy deck to make work, but there is also many things you can do with it, and a lot of Pokemon that work well with it, ability lock shouldn't hurt you that much as most of the abilities are quality of life abilities, they aren't essential to the deck functioning, Like Smeargle or Togakiss, Max Elixir should be your best friend, and with the ability to heal there is no reason why you shouldn't be running rainbow energy unless you are that afraid of Jirachi, and even still you can hit a bench Pokemon for 30 and fighting Pokemon shouldn't even be a wory for you, I know because I have battles my friends Ho-Oh deck many times with my Garchop deck and it's not easy for me to KO and my sashes are hard to keep intact with the bench dmg, anyways now I am being intrusive by changing the topic, my suggestion is you start your own thread and discus how Ho-Oh can fit into the new rotation.

Its not about how it affects my deck but the archetype of that deck in general. Energy swapping strats are just as viable as any other strat out there. Ho-Oh is a Pokemon who wants to have access to abilities so having a Pokemon that can turn them off without a way to counter it is broken and breaks that strat in a unfair way.

Ya, that sounds right @crystal_pidgeot. I run Ho-oh a similar way too. Though, I'm not sure how Ho-oh will work without Manetric in the next format. I'm just saying as long there is a hard counter to a card, I feel ok about it. Strong energy has a couple of hard counters to the card. I feel it will balanced next season. Man, I own a play set of Ho-oh Ex's I best figure out a way to play them next season. I hate seeing my cash go to waste.

Anybody have a Pokemon crystal ball I can borrow? I only want to spend my money on the good cards next season.

I play Ho-Oh with Golduck Break. Tank strats with healing. Pretty much the only way I can see it played. Ho-Oh need healing IMO.

 

[PMJ]

A deck doesn't have to be winning to be considered too good.

I was thinking the same thing. My Forretress donk wins like one in ten matches and I was starting to get worried I had the bdif on my hands. Thank god winning isn't how we measure how good a deck is.

 

[SpoonLarry]

Its not about how it affects my deck but the archetype of that deck in general. Energy swapping strats are just as viable as any other strat out there. Ho-Oh is a Pokemon who wants to have access to abilities so having a Pokemon that can turn them off without a way to counter it is broken and breaks that strat in a unfair way.



I play Ho-Oh with Golduck Break. Tank strats with healing. Pretty much the only way I can see it played. Ho-Oh need healing IMO.

You don't need to rely on abilities to make Ho-Oh work, smeargle just wont be good enough with battle compressor rotating, everything this next format that used the discard gets hurt huge because of it, this is why the meta is slowing down. I think your stuck between rotations having the feeling that you need these abilities to accelerate your deck because of how fast things are right now. But I promise you things are not going to be that fast, Golduck is just way to clunky the amount of room you can save ditching it will surprise you trust me, I removed Zoroark from my M Ray deck using only PCL on and its way more consistent now, those 4 cards became 4 other cards that make things run smoother, more electric energy and trainers/supporters. I thought I would need Zoroark to deal with stuff like carbink but i did just fine with hex maniac and Jirachi. Jirachi broke the sash and M Ray destroyed Carbink with Hex, and I wont even need to worry about the sash soon. With the proper setup Max elixir should be all the setup you need for energy acceleration.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

You don't need to rely on abilities to make Ho-Oh work, smeargle just wont be good enough with battle compressor rotating, everything this next format that used the discard gets hurt huge because of it, this is why the meta is slowing down. I think your stuck between rotations having the feeling that you need these abilities to accelerate your deck because of how fast things are right now. But I promise you things are not going to be that fast, Golduck is just way to clunky the amount of room you can save ditching it will surprise you trust me, I removed Zoroark from my M Ray deck using only PCL on and its way more consistent now, those 4 cards became 4 other cards that make things run smoother, more electric energy and trainers/supporters. I thought I would need Zoroark to deal with stuff like carbink but i did just fine with hex maniac and Jirachi. Jirachi broke the sash and M Ray destroyed Carbink with Hex, and I wont even need to worry about the sash soon. With the proper setup Max elixir should be all the setup you need for energy acceleration.

Well, not really. I always felt Ho-Oh didn't need Smeargle. It just felt like too much. This deck isn't about having a fast Ho-Oh EX. Its about maintaining Ho-Oh EX and preventing it from going down. This isn't about Ho-Oh or my deck so I dont want to make it about that. Lets keep it about Korrina.

 

[SpoonLarry]

Well, not really. I always felt Ho-Oh didn't need Smeargle. It just felt like too much. This deck isn't about having a fast Ho-Oh EX. Its about maintaining Ho-Oh EX and preventing it from going down. This isn't about Ho-Oh or my deck so I dont want to make it about that. Lets keep it about Korrina.

Well that's exactly what your problem is your trying to bend the meta to work for you when its you that needs to bend, you can still play Ho-Oh, the version I mentioned is probably going to be one of the best variants, and imo could be a top contender. The meta is just not slow enough for your version to work, and I honestly hope it never gets that slow, I don't wanna see laser toad, or Junk hunt Sableye ever again, cause its things like that, that slow down the meta. The options are available, give it a try, its better to feel like you stand a chance than to struggle to make something work that just doesn't have a place in the meta.

Fighting losing a bunch of support sucks but it doesn't completely kill them, I will miss Korrina as Fightning was my favorite, but I'm interested to see what new things they will bring to the table, especially with entirely new Pokemon from sun and moon.

 

[Draaka]

But except for Donphan, there has not been a tier one fighting deck in the last two years! Most of the time the best fighting decks have been tier three at best. And Donphan was a year and a half ago.

Given that they haven't been very successful, surely you can't say that they have been "too consistent and powerful".

Ok, so

Donphan, Landobats, Lucario + Hammers, Mienshao, Maxies Garchomp & Groudon have all been famous and successful decks at one point or another since XY base. If you watched the last world championships you would have seen how almost all the junior and senior quarter, semi and finals were mostly fighting decks.

Fighting decks have been good. They haven't been top tier in the last 4 or 5 months through. I will miss Korrina, but tbh it's ok, fighting will survive. We still have our damage modifiers and that is the most important aspect of fighting, loosing Korrina isn't a massive blow, loosing focus sash sucks cause it wipes out the Meinshao deck.

So we have lost some set up, but of course none of those older well known decks had the wonderful Carbink Break. We have lost a good set up card, but we have gained INSANE levels of tankyness and energy acceleration. Although now we loose the battle compressor that can effect Carbink Breaks speed somewhat.

Fighting has been very good in many different ways. And loosing Korrina won't change that any time soon.

 

[Rusery]

Fighting has some of the best support in the game as has very good attackers and support many stages. It support is almost SP like. Doesn't matter where the decks place on the tier list, their support is godlike.

I read somewhere that Zygarde-EX/Carbink BREAK made T1 in the JAP nationals. Extremely consistent with lots of support. However, most if not all of the support was in Furious Fists (no surprise). Now that Furious Fists is rotating so does the fighting support, so i don't know what you're referring to. I have not looked at steam siege but Strong Energy is rotating too. So if we look to Zygarde-EX/Carbink BREAK list for a T1 deck, we can see that almost 10-12 cards will be gutted from it. That usually makes a deck obsolete from what i remember.

If you're going to proclaim your ideas of fighting decks being great and having godly support then back that up because a lot of people may benefit from your insight on how to recover from the upcoming rotation, because as of now fighting decks will be hurting more than any other aside from Fire.

 

[freedom8901]

I think fighting decks so has a lot of powerful support such as Carbink BREAK and strong energy getting reprinted in Fates Collide, the biggest impact of Korrina would be on garchomp decks

 

[Otaku]

I read somewhere that Zygarde-EX/Carbink BREAK made T1 in the JAP nationals. Extremely consistent with lots of support. However, most if not all of the support was in Furious Fists (no surprise). Now that Furious Fists is rotating so does the fighting support, so i don't know what you're referring to. I have not looked at steam siege but Strong Energy is rotating too. So if we look to Zygarde-EX/Carbink BREAK list for a T1 deck, we can see that almost 10-12 cards will be gutted from it. That usually makes a deck obsolete from what i remember.

If you're going to proclaim your ideas of fighting decks being great and having godly support then back that up because a lot of people may benefit from your insight on how to recover from the upcoming rotation, because as of now fighting decks will be hurting more than any other aside from Fire.

Emphasis added; Strong Energy was reprinted already in XY: Fates Collide as 115/124.

As I think I mentioned earlier, a lot of what Fighting loses is actually stuff it can either replace or at least cope with losing. Focus Sash is a nice trick but not essential; there is a reason its usually just a one or two inclusion in a deck or sometimes left out entirely. Fighting Stadium used to be clutch but now seems to be a one-of with other decks run alongside it. If nothing truly can replace it, Fighting Decks may consider including an alternate method for dealing with Stadium cards like Delinquent or Paint Roller. Or perhaps Scorched Earth will see more play (that also was reprinted in XY: Fates Collide). Korrina is great but she isn't completely unique: Skyla won't fetch a Pokémon with an Item, but it will let you snag any one Trainer. So the biggest loss is Hawlucha (FFI), and I admit I don't have a good substitute for it.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I read somewhere that Zygarde-EX/Carbink BREAK made T1 in the JAP nationals. Extremely consistent with lots of support. However, most if not all of the support was in Furious Fists (no surprise). Now that Furious Fists is rotating so does the fighting support, so i don't know what you're referring to. I have not looked at steam siege but Strong Energy is rotating too. So if we look to Zygarde-EX/Carbink BREAK list for a T1 deck, we can see that almost 10-12 cards will be gutted from it. That usually makes a deck obsolete from what i remember.

If you're going to proclaim your ideas of fighting decks being great and having godly support then back that up because a lot of people may benefit from your insight on how to recover from the upcoming rotation, because as of now fighting decks will be hurting more than any other aside from Fire.

Otaku pointed out everything in his post. Fighting also has Regirock for added damage and Carbink Break. Everything that has been lost can be replaced.

 

[Draaka]

Emphasis added; Strong Energy was reprinted already in XY: Fates Collide as 115/124.

As I think I mentioned earlier, a lot of what Fighting loses is actually stuff it can either replace or at least cope with losing. Focus Sash is a nice trick but not essential; there is a reason its usually just a one or two inclusion in a deck or sometimes left out entirely. Fighting Stadium used to be clutch but now seems to be a one-of with other decks run alongside it. If nothing truly can replace it, Fighting Decks may consider including an alternate method for dealing with Stadium cards like Delinquent or Paint Roller. Or perhaps Scorched Earth will see more play (that also was reprinted in XY: Fates Collide). Korrina is great but she isn't completely unique: Skyla won't fetch a Pokémon with an Item, but it will let you snag any one Trainer. So the biggest loss is Hawlucha (FFI), and I admit I don't have a good substitute for it.

Ok so if the deck is running regirocks, zygardes and carbinks (aka new fighting archetype.dec) then I have found float stones to be vital. Regirock and an empty zygarde are too bulky to not have floatstones around. I'm considering replacing fighting stadiums with team aquas secret base. This means when you lysandre an opponents card out it stays out and gives you a lot of time to set up, they have to dig for a switch or escape rope. Now scoop and AZ are going TASB has a lot of potential I reckon.

Only problem with focus sash is you loose the Meinshao deck which never really got above rogue status but was the best counter for vespiquen decks around when they were big. But although I love the deck RIP. It did better than I could ever have hoped for such a gimicky deck.

 

[poke4trade]

I've been running the deck lately on PTCGO. I stripped it down and pulled everything out that can't be played in standard. If Garbador gets big, I don't think you'll see much of Yanmega. Having said that, in the next format, the deck will be good. Even under ability lock the deck still performs well. In the next format it's going to be a fast deck because of the single energy attachment. And because you can't pull the fighting fury belt off, the opponent will need to hit 230 on zygrade. 230 is just a really high number to hit, so almost every card out there, save for a select few, will need to two shot the pokemon.

Strip down version:

Pokemon
3 Regirock EX
3/3 Carbink Carbink Break
3 Zygardes EX
2 Shaymin EX

Suporters:
1 Pscyic Mind Reading
2 Lysandres
4 Professor Sycamores
1 Delinquent
2 N

Item:
2 Switch
1 Escape rope
4 Trainers Mail
4 Vs Seekers
4 Ultra balls

Tools:
3 Float stones
3 Fighting fury belts

Stadium
2 Parallel city

Energy
4 Strong
5 Fighting

The only trick card I have in there is Psychic mind reading. In the next format it is harder to get things in the discard. Psychic Mind reading is pretty clutch at start of game or mid game because if you don't hit the ultra ball you still have Psychic mind reading to discard the Lysandres and Energies + get some cards back into your hand. I think the card will see a bit more play next season.

There is room for improvement for next format. I might up the count on fighting fury belt because the tool can't be pulled off and play a hex. You also won't need as many switches as the float stone will be tough to pull off. The deck has taken quite a few games in current format just the way it is because of carbink. Carbink gets to be a bit of a pest if you don't break into him right away and attach Fury belt on him. He does 70 with fury belt and strong energy attached to him. With two strongs on him he is a one hit knockout on Darkrai and Jolteon, or two regirocks on bench. Ya I think the deck will see play next season.

 

[Not Cool!]

I don't know how this became a discussion about Ho-Oh and Water Box, because this is a thread about Korrina and losing Korrina.

While we're losing Korrina, we still have access to Maxie, which is an extremely good card. In fact, Fighting is a very flexible type in this format. We have lots of beefy attackers, like Primal Groudon, Zygarde-EX and Omega Barrage Medicham. Plus, we still have plenty of good support: the aforementioned Maxie, Strong Energy, Machamp (reprinted in Generations), both Carbinks from Fates Collide (though Safeguard is far more useful) and Carbink BREAK. There might be some more, but while that may not seem like enough, it's a lot. One or two Strong Energy on Primal Groudon kills nearly everything in the format, bar the beefiest of Mega Pokemon (which would probably be carrying a Spirit Link instead of Fighting Fury Belt).

Garchomp and Gallade might still be a thing after the format shift. With the loss of Battle Compressor and Korrina, Garchomp decks and YZG decks lose some of their consistency, but it's not like Maxie rotates or anything. You can still Ultra Ball, albeit you would need them to be in your hand to do so. YZG might just become YZ, but that's subject for another thread.

 

[Otaku]

@Draaka

I tried to make it work without the Float Stones and it mostly didn't. Though I would like to emphasize Hawlucha was more than a pivot Pokémon as its attacks were pretty good. Some sweet tricks when shutting off its Ability against the Fighting Weak as well.

There is another deck that relies on Focus Sash and while gimmicky, it does look like that thing that takes you out if you don't know exactly how to handle it. Basically take Primal Groudon-EX/Wobbuffet decks and replace Primal Groudon-EX with Regirock (XY: Black Star Promo XY49), then use Scramble Switch and Puzzle of Time for sick tricks. You still use Wobbuffet early on for disruption and a meatshield, though.

Losing Battle Compressor really does hurt Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick but it might not destroy it. Basically if you don't mind focusing on it, I suspect it can still prove adequate. Just no more running like one or two copies each of [insert target] and Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick. You'll have to run both heavily and rely on Arco Bike, Professor Sycamore, and Ultra Ball to make it work; not as easy and not as reliable, but still functional.

 

[Draaka]

Hmm, true loosing Hawlucha hurts, but I was starting to use him less and less in my lists anyway because there weren't as many EX pokemon around any more.

That does sound pretty gimicky tbh. But it could have been fun, I've never heard of it before.

MHBT decks and AAITH decks will be worse that is true, but I don't think apart from maybe Garchomp that any deck that used MHBT was a fighting deck, it was more a way to tech a fighting card into a dark or fire or something else deck. YGZ was a dark deck, with a fighting tech, and didn't use Korrina anyway or any other fighting support so I am hesitant to count that really.

 

[Otaku]

@Draaka

Just to be clear, I think some points of discussion are being confused. Plus based on responses I am getting in other threads on this topic, it wouldn't hurt for me to reword what I am saying anyway as I know I wasn't being clear. >_<

• Losing Korrina hurts the Fighting Type.
• However it does not destroy the Fighting Type - clutch Item search via Supporter can still be had through Skyla. You'll have to supply an additional Fighting Type separately, but we have several Items which can do that.
• Focus Sash is a nasty trick for Fighting Types to ensure they can't be OHKO'd but they lost it, which hurts.
• Usage of Focus Sash fluctuates; if it was at multi-card staple level for most Fighting decks then my bad, I am behind.
• Focus Sash not foolproof; besides Tool discarding effects, Poison still finishes something off and any way of getting damage onto the equipped Pokémon before attacking causes Focus Sash to fail to trigger.
• Rotation axes generic, Trainer based Tool discard effects.
• All Tools that survive rotation are thus likely to become more potent; this could create a "different but equal" situation where say Fighting Fury Belt gives you as good a chance of surviving a OHKO as Focus Sash overall, but not against certain key match ups (fast Grass decks).
• Karen should arrive sooner or later; in the case of "sooner" Vespiquen (XY: Ancient Origins 10/98) is further nerfed and it was already hurting from the loss of Battle Compressor.
• Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick (and Archie's Ace in the Hole) remain, but lose key combo partner Battle Compressor.
• Without Battle Compressor, Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick/Archie's Ace in the Hole go from small to large combos. No more tossing in two Gallade (XY: BREAKthrough 84/162 and two Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick for a reliable Gallade.
• General Supporter counts may have to rise again as well due to lack of Battle Compressor, which could further impact several aspects of this list.

 

[poke4trade]

I second what otaku said. Like I said, I've been playing the deck and Otaku has a firm grasp on the loses and wins of the new meta. Korina, though a great card, really just gets replaced with even a better cards like Carbink and Carbink Break. In the next format they will be most annoying along with Zygarde at 230 hp with fighting fury belt. On turn one, Zygarde turns into a mega with a fighting fury belt. I mean there are only few megas that carries the 230 and 240 and Zygarde does it with a tool. You don't even need to evolve him. One tool and you have 230hp. It is just a bewildering amount of HP for a a basic and it is easy and really fast. Who wouldn't play Zygarde for giggles and grins?

On a side note, I attached a DDE to Giritina and Fairy Dropped him + PCL. It was funny after the Hex hit the pokemon. Man there is so many cards that have synergy with DDE's.