Discussion Regional: Time Constraints and Players Health

[jbcheshire]

I was there in St Louis this past weekend and even though I bombed out early, I feel that the current format for these big tournaments needs to be changed.

One thing I really dislike is the ties, and especially IDs (intentional draws) which I feel does take away from the spirit of the game.

I would like to see the tournaments tried in a similar swiss style format but with no ties or intentional draws for 1 game/match, and 30-35 time limit for the match. Whomever has taken the most prizes when the time is up (if the game hasn't already completed) wins that match. I know that will encourage some stalling at the end of these matches, but I see that already happening in these BO3 after the first game has been won by some competitors.

 

[SMP]

Haven't played at a Regionals this year, but did last year.

I don't think the actual decks being played matter too much. The main problem is that Bo3 is going to take up a good chunk of the allotted time no matter what. Going to game 3 is going to bring the match close to time or go into +3 in almost every case. Add to that the time between rounds running long due to software issues or match slips being filled out incorrectly and you have days lasting until 10-11pm.

Best thing to do in my mind would be to have Bo1 swiss with more round to get the same effect as Bo3 does. This also allows players to have more breaks between rounds to rest or grab a bite to eat. The only issue I see are the issues that currently happen between rounds that extend for a while, but those need to get situated no matter what kind of swiss format is run.

 

[poke4trade]

I was there in St Louis this past weekend and even though I bombed out early, I feel that the current format for these big tournaments needs to be changed.

One thing I really dislike is the ties, and especially IDs (intentional draws) which I feel does take away from the spirit of the game.

I would like to see the tournaments tried in a similar swiss style format but with no ties or intentional draws for 1 game/match, and 30-35 time limit for the match. Whomever has taken the most prizes when the time is up (if the game hasn't already completed) wins that match. I know that will encourage some stalling at the end of these matches, but I see that already happening in these BO3 after the first game has been won by some competitors.

I like the idea of prize count at end of match. It's a good idea.

Haven't played at a Regionals this year, but did last year.

I don't think the actual decks being played matter too much. The main problem is that Bo3 is going to take up a good chunk of the allotted time no matter what. Going to game 3 is going to bring the match close to time or go into +3 in almost every case. Add to that the time between rounds running long due to software issues or match slips being filled out incorrectly and you have days lasting until 10-11pm.

Best thing to do in my mind would be to have Bo1 swiss with more round to get the same effect as Bo3 does. This also allows players to have more breaks between rounds to rest or grab a bite to eat. The only issue I see are the issues that currently happen between rounds that extend for a while, but those need to get situated no matter what kind of swiss format is run.

It was a large Regional with over 500 Trainers. My concern is with popularity of the game and health of players. As Pokemon promotes more of the game, (super bowl commercial) regional's will increase in size. With a lot of stall decks in place, it creates very long play times. The current format is not setup to handle those kind of quantities of time and players.

In other words, Pokemon cannot get their games done in a allotted humane time. I'm a bit concerned for players.

I believe when breakpoint is playable the times will increase exponentially.

 

[CESit]

I have been to 2 regionals only so I have limited experience (Virginia and Lancaster, PA). I have to agree though, it can be quite draining/grueling to go through the day - especially for people who drive longish distances to go to events [which I suspect is a significant portion of the event-goers]. At Virginia I played sableye - and having woken up early in the morning (like 3-4 AM, I don't recall exactly when) - I was quite tired throughout the event and I felt like my mind was occasionally acting suboptimally. I accepted that I would be tired when I chose the deck, but frankly I wouldn't be surprised if there are less "full-time" decks that end up getting played because players are aware of how tiring it can be having a deck that can't finish 3 games within 50 minutes. I think part of the problem however is there are so many shuffle functions currently in cards, which extends the time of matches subtlely.

As for responses, I think experimenting with chess clocks at smaller tournaments would be a great idea/start. Other options could be reducing regionals down to best of 1 or best of 2 games. However, most players I would say enjoy having best of 3s - because it gives them the opportunity to react to the opponent's deck, gives a player a margin of error if they get an unlucky draw, creates a more back and forth atmosphere. Best of 1 matches would take away from the atmosphere [and probably isn't what players want] but would be better for the players health and for the parents of young kids. I think there is enormous potential for the future of the TCG to use PTCGO for some small/big tournament functions for the future. Due to the computerized/chess time on PTCGO - it would be much easier to have a best of 3 format for some sort of virtual regional/state tournament, which would alleviate/fix many of the potential health/time issues of regionals.

 

[SMP]

It was a large Regional with over 500 Trainers. My concern is with popularity of the game and health of players. As Pokemon promotes more of the game, (super bowl commercial) regional's will increase in size. With a lot of stall decks in place, it creates very long play times. The current format is not setup to handle those kind of quantities of time and players.

In other words, Pokemon cannot get their games done in a allotted humane time. I'm a bit concerned for players.

I believe when breakpoint is playable the times will increase exponentially.

There was a thread on Virbank a while ago that talked about this. In essence, Bo3 isn't supposed to actually complete 3 games. Bo3 is used in the event that one player gets donked or has a completely terrible start that has the game end in short order. In that case there is enough time to complete another 2 games if needed. If the first 2 games take 20-25 minutes (normal length games for the most part) and it's tied, you're going to end up with a tied game. The advantage of this in their eyes is that the person who lost game 1 at least now has a match point instead of having none if it were Bo1.

It doesn't matter if the format is stall decks or quick decks or whatever. With a tournament that has 400 players you're always going to have at least 1 game that goes to time. The actual number of games that go to time is almost irrelevant, the whole tournament is still going to last until 10-11pm.

 

[poke4trade]

There was a thread on Virbank a while ago that talked about this. In essence, Bo3 isn't supposed to actually complete 3 games. Bo3 is used in the event that one player gets donked or has a completely terrible start that has the game end in short order. In that case there is enough time to complete another 2 games if needed. If the first 2 games take 20-25 minutes (normal length games for the most part) and it's tied, you're going to end up with a tied game. The advantage of this in their eyes is that the person who lost game 1 at least now has a match point instead of having none if it were Bo1.

It doesn't matter if the format is stall decks or quick decks or whatever. With a tournament that has 400 players you're always going to have at least 1 game that goes to time. The actual number of games that go to time is almost irrelevant, the whole tournament is still going to last until 10-11pm.

The tournament had over 500 Trainers. But ya, you have all solid points.

I wonder if Pokemon states anywhere that regional's are up to 14 hours to 16 hours with no lunch breaks? If players understand that kind of output, because it was literally stated by the company, it is a Warning Label. If it is something that is tribal knowledge, than that is a bit different, something that should be addressed by Pokemon Co.

I've grown up around sports all my life. I've played in all kinds of tournaments. I've never seen, even at the elite Nike Tournaments, where they treated players with such disregard. I think it's a bit reckless.

 

[Yo-yos]

I like how regionals are setup, I personally don't like lunch breaks though, and my logic behind it. Regionals have always been setup as 1-2 day all-day long grueling tournaments where you are there from dusk until dawn, these tournaments are not made to be fun, they are designed to be overly competitive so that the best player wins at the end of the day. They even tell you online before hand what the expectation is, how long they are, the likely hood of a lunch break and etc. So for me, who has years of experience playing the game it should be up to the player to decide how they survive the day, to complain about what they can and cannot do is consequently their fault as this has been always a thing. Bring an energy drink, food in your back pack, something so you don't have to constantly leave for those things, plan ahead so it makes your day easier, always ask your opponent if you can eat during your match. I hate lunch breaks, they mess me up and I lose rounds to them, so tbh lunch breaks can happen between rounds.

The issue with lock or disruptive decks, is test against as many as you can before hand, find weaknesses, exploit said weaknesses, win your matchup because your opponent isn't thinking about covering for that weakness. Neither decks that won last weekends reg's were disruption decks, they just knew how to out play those decks, and with puzzle of time more people will play more sableye/garbo, it's up to you to beat these decks and make them feel salty about it.

 

[TheAnticipationEevee]

Why not put a cap on how many times you can look through the discards per turn outside of when you're using a trainer card or an attack/ability that deals with your discard pile? There doesn't need to be a time limit for turns, but I don't think anyone would mind if there were limits placed on how long you can casually look through the discards.

I believe that there is already a cap. If you look through your discard pile excessively, that can be considered slow play/stalling in the rules, which may lead to penalties. I guess the problem would be not if you are looking during your opponent's turn, but looking through it during your own turn multiple times. In that case, I would recommend reminding the opponent not to do that twice a turn, and if they continue, then call a judge for slow play. Looking through the discard counts in the time limit for deciding an action during a player's turn

 

[tebunker]

So this thread made me sign up for an account on the forums finally.

I am having a hard time understanding what goes on in a large event. Are they just poorly run?

I only have experience playing MTG competitively and remember playing in events with 3500+ players with none of these issues. No lunch breaks, and it's a hectic mess, but I never once felt that player health was an issue.

So if there are people slow playing Judges need to be called and it needs to be enforced. If players are routinely playing to a time limit, again the judges need to be involved here. It seems more to me, that these events are not being professionally run. This is probably the real failing of the Pokemon company. A company like Wizards has a small army of compensated judges of all levels that are teamed up with large tournament organizers to run events. It isn't always great but they usually did a solid job.

Now I understand the issues that can arise because of the different play levels in PTCG so different considerations need to be made with regards to that, but I think the big issues can all be resolved with better tournament organizers, judge crews and overall support and direction from the Pokemon Co.

Hopefully this will improve, as 500 players doesn't seem like a lot to me at all, and odds are the game will only continue to grow.