Discussion Single-Prize Only format

[Yaginku]

This idea has been bouncing around my head for a while now, with how meta-warping multi-prize Pokemon are. It's not just the power of their attacks or high health - even decks that don't primarily run these cards are designed specifically to tackle them. We are losing a ton of interesting possibilities with decks that cannot consistently outperform obviously superior cards.

That's why I believe a Single-Prize Only format wouldn't be just "best Standard/Expanded decks that don't run EX/GX/V", but an entirely new beast. Without the pressure to compete with massive health pools and ridiculous damage, baby decks have a free reign to tech against stall - and decks like Blowns, focused on dealing 250+ damage will be dramatically inefficient.

Perhaps the largest audience for such format would be beginners, playing in larger leagues, where they'll inevitably butt heads against multi-prize decks. A format that doesn't force them to either "fight them or join them", but allows for creativity at a relatively low price-point could be a great way to ease them into the game. However, if PTCG doesn't change its course, I believe more and more regular players will become disillusioned with the Standard format and start looking for an alternative (and given the recent article, Expanded isn't having a great time either). Unlike many format concepts I have seen, which generally focus on tweaking the rules, this one has many advantages - it's very simple to explain, it has precedence (Magic's Pauper) and a clear niche to fill.

I will be discussing this format with my League's players, but I'd love for others to test this format. Pick up your favorite single-prize rouge decks that couldn't outperform Turn-2 200 damage, and play them against each other. I know I have at least a couple of evolution lines I wanted to try out.

 

[Rooie]

What makes you think a single-prize-only meta would be any more varied than what we currently have? Furthermore, why would it be cheaper when almost all decks would still run a playset of Jirachi?

 

[Clam]

frostmoth any kurum turn 2 dmg mmm

 

[Yaginku]

What makes you think a single-prize-only meta would be any more varied than what we currently have?

It's because multi-prize Pokemon marginalize other types of attackers, unless they have a specific gimmick or scaling damage.
There is no promise that Tier 1 will be more or less expansive - just like it wasn't before EXs existed. However, there won't be such a drastic drop off between Tier 1 and 2. And also, just by the nature of these things, there are more regular Pokemon printed than GX/V.

Furthermore, why would it be cheaper when almost all decks would still run a playset of Jirachi?

True, Jirachi still exists, though it's not as expensive as Dedenne. Also, it's nerfed - instead of being worth 1/3rd of your primary attacker (and usually being worth nothing when forcing a 7-8 prize game), it is now worth exactly the same.
I don't think all decks would run Jirachi, especially with a slower game than the ridiculous sprint of Tag Teams.

 

[Otaku]

As this proposal comes up so often, if you and your League are up to it, please give it a go and report the results as accurately as you are able, @Yaginku

I am quite skeptical of the proposal, because - for the most part - I don't come to the same conclusions but I agree that there is a problem. Let me know if you're up for any other experiments. I have a few ideas that a PTCGO-only player can't test. XP Some of them, I believe, would suit your tastes (sort-of Side Boards).

Furthermore, why would it be cheaper when almost all decks would still run a playset of Jirachi?

We're still cutting out the "Ultra Rares" of Pokémon; unless the void is filled by the priciest of normal Rares and Holo Rares, or we have situations like two TAG TEAM Pokémon and two Uncommons end up replaced by four Holo Rares, we should see a decrease in deck prices.

Plus, if it works and less used cards see more play, those cards are going to (usually) be less expensive because they don't see a lot of Standard Format play (if any).

 

[Clam]

i feel as if this format would have the same issues as the normal format becuase non GX/V pokemon grew so they could compete with them sure they dont one shot the big boys but they sure do one shot other non GX/V

although I do feel as if this format would become slower then the current one as GX/V pokemon are just more efficient for there energy cost

 

[Yaginku]

i feel as if this format would have the same issues as the normal format becuase non GX/V pokemon grew so they could compete with them sure they dont one shot the big boys but they sure do one shot other non GX/V

True, with Sword & Shield, one-prize Pokemon were to only ones to receive "objective" powercreep - VMAXes are three-prize evolutions, so they're technically not comparable to Tag Teams. However, increasing health pools to 170 means nothing when you're facing a basic that deals 230 a turn. That's why I wouldn't say it's comparable to the degeneracy provided by multi-prize Pokemon. They're slightly numerically superior, but not outright on another level.

 

[FourteenAlmonds]

In the current (Standard) meta, as I understand it, one of the main reasons why we don't see a huge variety of non-GX decks is that Malamar, and TinaTags specifically, acts as a gatekeeper -- as in, it has such favourable matchups against non-GX decks that it essentially prevents them from ever being played to success. To be a strong single-prize deck you have to be able to leap over that hurdle, and that's why for example we never really saw Charizard TEU doing well even though it could hit significant numbers. It had an autoloss to TinaTags. How do you know that that won't be an issue here, and/or how are you planning to prevent decks that already act as gatekeepers from totally dominating your format?

 

[FourteenAlmonds]

One more thing -- in almost all modified formats that I've played in without an established meta, the main decks that win are control or something similar (eg. in my LGS' Christmas Event, where only [R] and [G] single-prize Pokemon were permitted, the winning deck was an infinite loop Will/Agility stall deck). Do you anticipate that being an issue, until an established metagame allows effective teching for certain matchups?

 

[Yaginku]

In the current (Standard) meta, as I understand it, one of the main reasons why we don't see a huge variety of non-GX decks is that Malamar, and TinaTags specifically, acts as a gatekeeper -- as in, it has such favourable matchups against non-GX decks that it essentially prevents them from ever being played to success. To be a strong single-prize deck you have to be able to leap over that hurdle, and that's why for example we never really saw Charizard TEU doing well even though it could hit significant numbers.

I really don't think that's the case - it's more that singe-prize decks that would have a favorable match-up against Giratina fall absolutely flat against any Tag Team/VMAX. Each deck has to account for dealing with massive HP numbers, receiving massive damage, taking chip damage from decks like Giratina, combating single-prize attackers like Giratina or Blowns AND doll stall. And most don't. A single-prize attacking deck rarely has space to do all of that, while a Tag Team, by the virtue of its own stats, covers a bunch of these bases at the same time.
It is my impression that Charizard TEU sees no play, because it's literally a worse version of Blowns.

One more thing -- in almost all modified formats that I've played in without an established meta, the main decks that win are control or something similar

"Control" doesn't exist in PokemonYes, it is something worth considering - stall decks get a massive advantage when they get the element of surprise. However, we're in a unique situation where everyone will absolutely expect stall decks to appear, given that it's one of the most successful single-prize decks right now.

 

[FourteenAlmonds]

I really don't think that's the case - it's more that singe-prize decks that would have a favorable match-up against Giratina fall absolutely flat against any Tag Team/VMAX. Each deck has to account for dealing with massive HP numbers, receiving massive damage, taking chip damage from decks like Giratina, combating single-prize attackers like Giratina or Blowns AND doll stall. And most don't. A single-prize attacking deck rarely has space to do all of that, while a Tag Team, by the virtue of its own stats, covers a bunch of these bases at the same time.
It is my impression that Charizard TEU sees no play, because it's literally a worse version of Blowns.

"Control" doesn't exist in PokemonYes, it is something worth considering - stall decks get a massive advantage when they get the element of surprise. However, we're in a unique situation where everyone will absolutely expect stall decks to appear, given that it's one of the most successful single-prize decks right now.

I might be a little behind the times with Charizard TEU, yeah; at this point it is totally outclassed by Blowns, but between TEU and UNB releasing it was hurt a lot by TinaTags just existing.

 

[Yaginku]

@FourteenAlmonds It's fine to theorize about the meta, I think Charizard TEU will be much stronger than Blowns in SPO. Blowns have to massively commit to its damage, which Charizard is a much more stand-alone card.

 

[Yaginku]

Addendum: We are planning to run a series of beginner-friendly events in Spring, and SPO tournaments organized right after introductory events would be a perfect place to try this thing out. Hopefully the attendance won't get slashed (or even prevented outright) due to the virus.

Meanwhile, I am taking suggestions on a catchy name for this bad boy. "SPO" is pretty obtuse, but at least self-explanatory.

 

[Otaku]

Meanwhile, I am taking suggestions on a catchy name for this bad boy. "SPO" is pretty obtuse, but at least self-explanatory.

Not much of an improvement (if at all: "Mono-Prize" has the same syllables as "Single-Prize", but is abbreviated to just "MP".

"Petit Cup" doesn't have a TCG use already, does it?

A bit misleading, since we're only doing away with the multi-Prize specialty mechanics and not other gimmicks, but "Baseline" seems kind of catchy without also seeming too full of itself. Or would players assume "Baseline" had to include the "Base Set"?

 

[Clam]

I wonder how the meta will be in a strong basic mirror all that matters is who is able to take the fisrt prize card and maintain that lead even if most of your pokemon are K.Od as long as you K.O 1 more you win so comebacks will be much harder
the "new" big boys will be the stage 2 that can take a hit AND take a K.O like cinderace so please tell me how this goes

 

[AngryBokoblin]

You are going to get a lot of stall control lock fun times.
You will have to have an extensive ban list.
Which sets are you including?
Like look at this.
https://limitlesstcg.com/decks/?list=3581&view=visual&mode=default
It only plays 2 gxs.
or https://limitlesstcg.com/decks/?list=3583&view=visual&mode=default
Plume will be annoying, too.
Sableye, dolls, baby pokemon, garb, muk, wobb, the list goes on and on.

If you make taking 6 prizes harder, then the other win cons become better.
It is as simple as that.
If a putting your opponent down to 1 card in hand with trevnoir doesn't stop doll stall from being good, I don't see how some pokemon that does 130 for 3 energy is going to stand a chance.

 

[FourteenAlmonds]

I think techs for the already established decks are going to be pretty prevalent -- perhaps Hoopa for Mally, and Tapu Fini for Blowns. Idk exactly how the stall matchup is going to be teched for, but there's definitely going to be something that people put in. Interestingly, Lost March might see a resurgence; other decks that I can think of off the top of my head are Zapdos/Jirachi, both with and without Beasts, and actually so many other options -- especially if you go into Expanded format stuff. There's so much to consider, it's actually quite exciting!

 

[FourteenAlmonds]

You are going to get a lot of stall control lock fun times.
You will have to have an extensive ban list.
Which sets are you including?
Like look at this.
https://limitlesstcg.com/decks/?list=3581&view=visual&mode=default
It only plays 2 gxs.
or https://limitlesstcg.com/decks/?list=3583&view=visual&mode=default
Plume will be annoying, too.
Sableye, dolls, baby pokemon, garb, muk, wobb, the list goes on and on.

If you make taking 6 prizes harder, then the other win cons become better.
It is as simple as that.
If a putting your opponent down to 1 card in hand with trevnoir doesn't stop doll stall from being good, I don't see how some pokemon that does 130 for 3 energy is going to stand a chance.

Expanded SPO just seems like a huge "yikes" right now. I hate to say it, but to me it doesn't seem sustainable without accepting the prevalence of stall/mill/control.

 

[Yaginku]

You are going to get a lot of stall control lock fun times.
You will have to have an extensive ban list.
Which sets are you including?
Like look at this.
https://limitlesstcg.com/decks/?list=3581&view=visual&mode=default
It only plays 2 gxs.
or https://limitlesstcg.com/decks/?list=3583&view=visual&mode=default
Plume will be annoying, too.
Sableye, dolls, baby pokemon, garb, muk, wobb, the list goes on and on.

I am not familiar with Expanded - that's why I suggested Standard in my original post. As I've said, I am not afraid of stall and lock in Standard.

If you make taking 6 prizes harder, then the other win cons become better.

More like - if you make taking 6 prizes easier, you have to equally overpower other strategies for them to compete.

 

[Yaginku]

Not much of an improvement (if at all: "Mono-Prize" has the same syllables as "Single-Prize", but is abbreviated to just "MP".

"Petit Cup" doesn't have a TCG use already, does it?

A bit misleading, since we're only doing away with the multi-Prize specialty mechanics and not other gimmicks, but "Baseline" seems kind of catchy without also seeming too full of itself. Or would players assume "Baseline" had to include the "Base Set"?

I thought about it for a while, looked at a bunch of synonyms to "easy", "single", "basic", etc. and stumbled upon "Prime". It has correlation to "one", as in the number of prizes, and "primeval", as in basic. The absolute best derivative I found is:

Premier

This one gets even better with a direct correlation to a Pokeball. It also just sounds like a format name - "Standard, Expanded, Premier". Let me know if this one sounds good to you.