Discussion SM4 Worst Set Ever?

There are more than two good cards in the set. Most of the cards you call bad are just average. Not every card is immediately gamebreaking and it's good for game balance that this is the case. If we had a Garbodor every set powercreep would destroy this game. There are lots of cards in the set that can build into immediately usable and fun casual play decks, not top tier of competition, but a lot of those decks just need a favorable meta or a few new cards in future sets to push them there. For example Gourgeist as already mentioned, Salazzle, Milotic, these are all interesting cards.

Even if those were the only good cards in the set, we are NOWHERE near worst set ever. Not even in recent memory. Evolutions isn't even a year old and people have already forgotten about it?

This set is not a bad set, it's just an average set when we're coming off of a good set and Guardians which is the most important set since BW base.
 
Kietharr said:
There are more than two good cards in the set. Most of the cards you call bad are just average. Not every card is immediately gamebreaking and it's good for game balance that this is the case. If we had a Garbodor every set powercreep would destroy this game. There are lots of cards in the set that can build into immediately usable and fun casual play decks, not top tier of competition, but a lot of those decks just need a favorable meta or a few new cards in future sets to push them there. For example Gourgeist as already mentioned, Salazzle, Milotic, these are all interesting cards.

Even if those were the only good cards in the set, we are NOWHERE near worst set ever. Not even in recent memory. Evolutions isn't even a year old and people have already forgotten about it?

This set is not a bad set, it's just an average set when we're coming off of a good set and Guardians which is the most important set since BW base.
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There are more than two useful cards in this set. Most of them are nice additions to already existing decks. For me these two stand out since they can be the basis of their own decks. While Silvally GX has been discussed a lot I have not seen much discussion of Gorgeist thus far. He is a single prize attacker that needs no more than one Double Colorless to be able to score some decent ohkos.
 
TheDude133 said:
A bench sniping move that NEEDS venesuar and NEEDS at least 3 Grass energy to do any kind of meaningful damage to a bench pokemon. And even then its only 120 damage. Which is only enough to 2HKO. You would need three Tapu-koko hits, and get venusuar, AND get three energy on Alolan to OHKO a big basic. That's minimum 4 Turns of set up. Which any deck in the game right now can outspeed. What deck would have a bad matchup against this? Like honestly? Garb would have a great matchup because you will go through a ton of items getting all of your moving pieces set up (only needs 9 items and a band to OHKO) Plus it turns off Venusuar. Metagross and Gard both out speed the deck. Alolan Ninetails can 2HKO you all day long, and OHKO venusuar. VikaBulu OHKO's you with Choice Band. What match up do you have that's good?
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Why do you think so single mindedly? When you're going after benched pokemon the goal isn't the two prize pokemon... it's the support... it's the Metang, it's the Manaphy, it's all the pieces on the board that the opposing player need to make plays. Also why do you keep talking about his first attack in terms of Grass energy alone? You need one Grass to fuel it, but you can play DCE OR Grass energy to increase the damage. This means it's not nearly as weak to being shut off by ability lock. It also means that Venusaur doesn't have to hit the board so quickly for you to be doing 60-80 damage to the bench fairly quickly.

As for Garb if it's Dampa Garb variants you'll be killing Garbs before they get a chance to use them, and you won't be putting counters on their bench you'll be straight up killing pokemon every turn so Drampa won't be getting Berserk boosts unless he does it himself... and then he's putting his bench into easier sniping range.

You can two shot Ninetails right back... and you confuse and you don't have to discard energy for your main attack.

VikaBulu also does NOT One shot you with Choice Band... you survive with 10 HP... Meaning you could potentially bench snipe a Vikavolt and then last a turn in order to one shot the Bulu with Exeggutor's GX attack.

TheDude133 said:
Lol, you literally just said my point as to why buzzwole isn't that good. How to deal with Psychic weakness on Buzzwole: Don't play it.
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You deal with it by having another option in your deck... or you can accept the loss... like how Volc decks pretty much accept that they will lose to water and Metagross accepts it will lose to fire. Pretty much every meta deck right now has an auto loss to another meta deck. Doesn't makes them any less good.

TheDude133 said:
Are the other three UB's in this set? No? Ok, then they don't matter.
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You accerted that UBs where bad in general. And yes I count them as part of this set. They are this set's promo cards.

TheDude133 said:
Again, for the THIRD TIME. The counter cards are bad, because they only work from behind. Meaning if you have a 50-50 matchup or better, out of 100 games, a minimum of 50 games the counter cards are going to be useless. That's a terrible ratio.
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You can fall behind in a game because of dead draws because of tactical choices, because of set up... And when you do... maybe you trade one prize for a big fat two prize trade using Counter Catcher. I'm not saying it's a four of card... but it has it's place. Counter Energy is a little harder to justify because you're actually attaching it to your pokemon and after you get the KO it just becomes a single colorless energy. Plus it doesn't even work on EX/GX. But just because I haven't found a use for it yet doesn't mean other people won't.

TheDude133 said:
Ok, so first of all, its main attack is 5 energy, so it will die instantly to Gardevoir. It will lose the prize trade against metagross because of max potion. It loses to Garb becaue of how many cards you need for the set up. It's bad because it's too expensive, too slow, and Ninetails and Lapras are just better.
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You talk about Metagross using Dehlmise (which it rarely does in my Cup experience), and you don't think Gyarados can run Kukui?

Ninetales* and Lapras aren't doing the same thing as Gyarados. It's also a rather bulky Pokemon at 240. It helps that it's also not weak to Grass. You're counting all its weaknesses without crediting any of it's strengths, and honestly saying it's slow because of it's high energy cost feels foolish. We live in an era of Max Elixir and Aqua Patch, and as I've said before Palkia is another great option. If you play Garb you do have to slow play and watch your item useage very closely... but it's not a foregone conclusion.

Kietharr said:
Evolutions isn't even a year old and people have already forgotten about it?
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I will never forgive them for screwing up Professor Oak and giving full arts to two cards that never existed in the Base Set.
 
This reminds me of when Plasma Storm came out and a bulk of the cards were deemed useless. Lugia EX had a cool ability, but couldn't take a knock out; Team Plasma Pokemon were under-powered and limited to 4 plasma energy in a deck; the only good cards were Colress, Hypnotoxic Laser, and Virbank City Gym. Then Plasma Freeze came out bringing Deoxys EX, Thundrus EX, and other cards that made Plasma Storm important. We even saw Donphan from Plasma Storm turn up a year later upon the release of Strong Energy. Right now the set may be lackluster, but I wouldn't discredit it until it's at least in play for a few months.
 
The set is bad, i have to agree. Personally, the only card i want for my deck is Counter Energy in order to fuel my counter to Metal and Grass pokemons.
 
only good cards in crimson invasion:
  • kartana gx
  • counter catcher
  • lusamine
  • nothing else
 
Well, Kartana GX is an Enhanced Hammer as its ability and can OHKO Gardevoir Gx with Choice Band and Kukui. that's somethin', right?
 
I was going to make a long post about agreeing with several of the OP's posts and such, but I'll just sum it up by saying that people's over-optimism is why TPC gets away with making such weak, uncreative TCG sets and games lately. While no one can expect tons of different new effects and different options out of these cards all the time, it seems like we see far too many of the same concepts slapped on something else far too quickly.

Also, saying "The next set could change how good/bad these cards are" doesn't change that right now, most of them aren't worth having aside from for collection purposes.
 
Ok guys. Let's look at this realisticly.
Cards that definitly have potential despite not beeing "Amazing"
Kartana GX
Nihilego GX (It's at least an interesting GX attack)
Buzzwole GX
Guzzlord GX

These are all 1. Basics. 2. Pretty unique in their own right and all playable for their respective types (Guzzlord would probably require to be it's own deck to work doe.)

Pokémon that are just meh at best:
Exegcutor GX
Gyarados GX
Gyarados has a nice ammount of Hp for a stage one. The new Karps are pretty neat in a snipe heavy meta (might be a deck for expanded with the AOR gyarados?) and atleast 230 DMG with choice. But it comes at a super heavy energy cost.

Exegcutor is pretty much a bit of a gimmick. Nice snipe attack and probably a bit of a collectors favorite.

Golem is just not great.

And defintily the star of the Set will be Silvally. If we actually start getting all the Memory Cards then this thing will be dominating the Meta for the next few months. Even still. 3 Energy 120 Damage? Yes please. And Energy Acceleration? Sure i'll take that too. Support for Basics? Sure. And a GX that has 1HKO potentiall? Sign me the F Up. Combine that with possible hitting for weakness against EVERYTHING and you got a borderline broken card on your hand.

Trainer Cards:
Lusamine is pretty nice. A more balanced VS Seeker.
Gladion is something new. Probably just a gimmick but a nice option.
Counter Catcher is amazing
Peeking Red Card can be pretty powerfull aswell and gives a ton of new options for more Controll-ish decks.
Dash Pouch is intresting.

Counter Energy is really cool. It's a big like a DDE but for everybody. It's a nice little idea i would say.

In conclusion i wouldn't say it's the worst set ever. There are A LOT unique and nice cards in this. Sure it aint no lele but still. It's definitly not the best set. But not the worst either.
Not every set is gonna be a Guardians Rising or Roaring Skies. And that's good. Because that would hurt the meta immensly

Just saying. Burning Shadows is kinda sheit aswell if you minus Garde and Guzma. :p
 
Just cause we had 3 great sets in a row doesn't mean that this set is trash. XY12 Evolutions was a much worse set.

Also, remember when everyone thought Metagross-GX sucked?
 
Perfect_Shot said:
but I'll just sum it up by saying that people's over-optimism is why TPC gets away with making such weak, uncreative TCG sets and games lately.
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If anything this set suffers from being too creative... making up new effects that we really don't have a good use for yet. I mean seriously, adding 2 prizes? Kartana GX can literally just scoop a prize for a single Metal energy, meaning you could simply hold it in your hand until you get to a single prize scenario and just... win.

This set definitely doesn't suffer from a lack of creativity.
 
CaptZero said:
If anything this set suffers from being too creative... making up new effects that we really don't have a good use for yet. I mean seriously, adding 2 prizes? Kartana GX can literally just scoop a prize for a single Metal energy, meaning you could simply hold it in your hand until you get to a single prize scenario and just... win.

This set definitely doesn't suffer from a lack of creativity.
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Dialga/Palkia Legend from the HG/SS era had an attack that added 2 cards to your opponent's prizes at the cost of a couple of energy. Nihilego GX simply let you add the cards for free, but it can only be done once per game.
 
this set just seems very top heavy to me. a lot of strong GX cards, but not so many great one prize attackers. also, the trainer and energy cards are going to be huge.
 
Just going to show up and tell people to stop trash talking Evolution. Don't blame Evolutions because this set isn't as good.
 
But hey I won't complain that my boy Gyarados FINALLY gets a GX card. And by Finally I mean not that long.
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
Just going to show up and tell people to stop trash talking Evolution. Don't blame Evolutions because this set isn't as good.
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No one was blaming evolutions for anything, but but if you're going to say that Crimson Invasion is the worst set ever you better be willing to compared to every other set...

And to be fair I do blame Evolutions because it screwed Professor Oak.
 
I feel like this set is is just a primer for things to come. I'd guess future sets are going to include a lot of support that pairs extremely well with this one.
 
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