Some Things Change, Some Things Stay the Same
- Thread starter PMJ
- Start date
I've played against three different ZPS decks in best of threes to test out this was what happened
1st guy 1-2 because of time (i would have won the third game had time not been called)
2nd Guy 0-2 (T1 donked and boneheaded afterburners)
3rd guy 2-1 (Setup was better, lost only to ANOTHER T1 donk)
Overall, these two are pretty even, it's just that ZPST has that donk factor.
1st guy 1-2 because of time (i would have won the third game had time not been called)
2nd Guy 0-2 (T1 donked and boneheaded afterburners)
3rd guy 2-1 (Setup was better, lost only to ANOTHER T1 donk)
Overall, these two are pretty even, it's just that ZPST has that donk factor.
A spare Zekrom? Zekrom shouldn't even be in the active until at least 2 or 3 prizes are taken. There's enough in that deck for Tornadus to Catcher KO that it has no trouble maintaining a prize trade on its own - especially with Defenders.glaceon said:
If you don't run DCE in your list, they're basically different decks.
Celebi23 said:
Theorymon much? Who won 10 of their 13 battle roads wins. Zekrom tailed off in BR wins at the end because everyone realized it is less than favorable against Reshi and Goth.
Celebi23 said:
Tornadus doesn't always work as the best attacker against TyRam. In fact, its actually bad. If you aren't able to reuse your Catcher (and you most often won't), and are up against a Catcher, Tornadus will do no good. Your taking this from a perfect world prospective. You won't always be able to Junk Arm to reuse your Catcher, and sometimes not even get a Catcher. What you propose won't work if this is the case, and you can't assume it won't be. Sure, if you have 3 Catcher's in your hand, Tornadus will be fine, but most often you won't.
I have tested the matchup. If it had as bad of a Reshiram matchup as you say it does, it couldn't have won almost as many BRs as Reshiram when Reshiram was the most popular deck.
What part of my post do you think is theorymon? TyRam just does not get a consistent T2 Typhlosion.
Ninja'd- @glaceon: With 4 Junk Arm and 4 Catcher in the deck, it's easier than it sounds to hit a Catcher every turn for 2-3 turns. Also, your scenario of a T2 Blue Flare is from a perfect world perspective for TyRam.
What part of my post do you think is theorymon? TyRam just does not get a consistent T2 Typhlosion.
Ninja'd- @glaceon: With 4 Junk Arm and 4 Catcher in the deck, it's easier than it sounds to hit a Catcher every turn for 2-3 turns. Also, your scenario of a T2 Blue Flare is from a perfect world perspective for TyRam.
@ Celebi23 The matchup itself. One person testing is a horrible sample size and leaves too many random variables to say anything about the matchup. You can say I tested this and I tested that but fact of the matter is Reshiram won more times and beat out Zekrom for first more times.
Celebi23 said:
But with no Pokemon drawpower, and because of the high amount of energy and Pokemon searching cards, it still won't be easy to get that.
Celebi23 said:
You have a point, but with the support of Ninetales, TyRam will often have a T3 Blue Flare, even if by manual attaching.
^It's easy enough. Think about it. That's 1 in every 7.5 cards. So burning a few cards and using an Oak's or Juniper should hit it for you. And if I ever whiff, I can just Bolt Strike your active to maintain the prize lead.
Most good players will look at their testing results to understand a matchup, then look at tournament results to decide what deck will see the most play. Besides, Battle Roads are hardly competitive. Only half the good players even show up, and hardly anybody tests seriously for them. A LOT of good players are completely dismissing Reshiram as the top deck choice for Regionals, even though based on tournament results it should be number one.
Lol. So basically, you're saying that my testing is theorymon, but looking at battle roads results and deciding the best deck and a deck's matchups from those is accurate testing?...adamisclassy said:
Most good players will look at their testing results to understand a matchup, then look at tournament results to decide what deck will see the most play. Besides, Battle Roads are hardly competitive. Only half the good players even show up, and hardly anybody tests seriously for them. A LOT of good players are completely dismissing Reshiram as the top deck choice for Regionals, even though based on tournament results it should be number one.
Celebi23 said:
You lack sample size. Looking at tournament results accounts for lists and play styles. While you can test with multiple lists you can't mimic play style or test under tournament pressure.
Also, good players probably won't be passing up BRs with championship points at stake. Or if they are they are making a mistake.
I agree with that. Good players will try to go to as many BRs as possible.
Testing against one person or version of a deck isn't great for testing either to. I play ZPST in a really weird way, but most people play it the usual way. Testing against me won't help much when playing against a "normal" ZPST build.
Quote:
^It's easy enough. Think about it. That's 1 in every 7.5 cards. So burning a few cards and using an Oak's or Juniper should hit it for you. And if I ever whiff, I can just Bolt Strike your active to maintain the prize lead.
Well, for Junk Arm, you must have already used a Catcher. Then it gets a bit more complicated.
Testing against one person or version of a deck isn't great for testing either to. I play ZPST in a really weird way, but most people play it the usual way. Testing against me won't help much when playing against a "normal" ZPST build.
Quote:
^It's easy enough. Think about it. That's 1 in every 7.5 cards. So burning a few cards and using an Oak's or Juniper should hit it for you. And if I ever whiff, I can just Bolt Strike your active to maintain the prize lead.
Well, for Junk Arm, you must have already used a Catcher. Then it gets a bit more complicated.
You can test multiple people with different playstyles. I never said to test against just one person. Furthermore, you shouldn't be feeling tournament pressure. If you let it get to you, you'll make a lot of misplays.adamisclassy said:
There are way too many variables in tournaments to make them more accurate than controlled testing. There's donks, you can't tell when a player got a bad hand, you don't know what the average skill level is for players at the event, you can't control which decks play which, you don't know how many of each deck was at the event, etc. Tournament results don't take all of these things giving one player an unfair advantage into account. That's why the most played deck usually wins a tournament.
If you don't understand WHY the results are the way they are, they do you no good. Without actually understanding the matchup from testing, you're just blindly looking at numbers. You can't just say, "Reshiram won more Battle Roads than Gothitelle, so Reshiram has a good Gothitelle matchup." Because Reshiram simply doesn't have a good Gothitelle matchup.
Celebi23 said:
I never said that Reshi has a good match against Goth. I said Reshi beat Zekrom in the finals 10 out of 13 times they faced off. Also donks and bad hands should be factored in. Your are arguing that things that happen in tournaments should not be factored in even though tournaments are really what matter. You can test all you want, but you can't account for the fact that PERCENTAGE wise Reshiram beat Zekrom in top cut.
adamisclassy said:
Donks should be factored in. One of ZPST's main things is donking. Factoring out donks makes ZPST's TyRam matchup worse. Testing is also biased because you know the deck your playing against ahead of time. Tournament conditions should be factored in too. Time limits, 30+3, and having distractions are things that will be encountered in tournaments, so testing with those tournament factors will help yourself as a player, and how you play.
You can factor 30+3 into testing. In fact, you should. Who ever said testing should be untimed? You can't replicate a tournament environment, and looking at results doesn't truly factor those in either. Your reactions to things like distractions and tournament pressure will be different than mine, and ours are probably different from a lot of other players'. The amount of pressure and distractions will vary from tournament to tournament and will be different in different areas. Battle Roads are played very casually (virtually no pressure), whereas Regionals are played very competitively (lots of pressure).
You say Reshiram beat Zekrom 10 out of 13 times in finals, but do you honestly know why? Can you give me an almost turn-by-turn account of what moves each player most likely made? You might be able to look at tournament results to find a Tier 1 deck, but if you don't understand how to play it, what was the point?
I suppose you have me to an extent about donks and bad hands being factored in. But, you should also understand how the matchup will play out without these things. And you can't look at tournament results and know which games/matchups donks or bad hands did factor in. You can say that Reshiram beat Zekrom 10 of 13 times, but unless you can prove to me that the Zekrom player didn't get a dead hand the majority of the games they played, it doesn't tell me anything. You have to account for really bad luck, or really good luck. When you test, you know when there was a donk or a bad hand. When you look at tournament results, you don't.
You say Reshiram beat Zekrom 10 out of 13 times in finals, but do you honestly know why? Can you give me an almost turn-by-turn account of what moves each player most likely made? You might be able to look at tournament results to find a Tier 1 deck, but if you don't understand how to play it, what was the point?
I suppose you have me to an extent about donks and bad hands being factored in. But, you should also understand how the matchup will play out without these things. And you can't look at tournament results and know which games/matchups donks or bad hands did factor in. You can say that Reshiram beat Zekrom 10 of 13 times, but unless you can prove to me that the Zekrom player didn't get a dead hand the majority of the games they played, it doesn't tell me anything. You have to account for really bad luck, or really good luck. When you test, you know when there was a donk or a bad hand. When you look at tournament results, you don't.