Special Comparison: Escape Rope (Freeze Bolt # 54) VS Switch (BW # 104) {10/12/12}
- Thread starter Vulpix Yolk
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RE: Special Comparison: Escape Rope (Freeze Bolt # 54) VS Switch (BW # 104) {10/12/12
I didn't ignore it; I just felt we had said all there was to say and didn't particularly want to get into it because we clearly see it differently. I only cropped it out because I wasn't going to address it. I did address the part where you said "Nothing has changed" talking about the format because the fact that we now have a card that does the same thing but better is quite a big change if you ask me. I'm not fond of forcing my ideas upon others, and in the end, I suppose it comes down to preference and its synergy (or lack of) with your deck. However, if you insist...
I'm assuming you were refering to this part:
Not at all. I'm acting like a mini-Catcher is worse than a Catcher. (Wouldn't you agree?) I agree that it COULD be helpful, but more often than not, this is what I feel will happen:
Darkrai/Hydreigon- They're not going to give you anything you can KO. Most instances, your opponent can wall with the Benched Darkrai they will almost certainly have. Terrakion can be walled with Hydreigon. Not to mention eccentially everything has free retreat, plus they can move all the energy around to attack with whatever they bring up.
Eelbox- Same as Darkrai/Hydreigon for the most part, although Darkrai has more options since Eel players can't send up their energy accelerator to wall Terrakion. Most of the attackers have free retreat from Skyarrow plus they are, for the most part, bulky 170 HP EX's. If you can't KO an active Raikou, then you definately can't KO a Benched Rayquaza unless you hit for Weakness. Of course, if you do hit for Weakness on an EX, you probably will get one of the Eels instead. Although, with Eviolite and Max Potion on top of the energy discarding attacks, you still might need Tool Scrapper for the KO.
Why not run it? Because I find it irrevevant in most cases, and helpful to my opponent in some others. When I play Switch, I want to retreat. I may not want my opponent to bring anything else up. There have been instances where I've had Catcher in hand, but the only thing I wanted Active was my opponent's current Active (a Darkrai I'm about to take the second hit on, for example). I've found that later in the game, when I play Switch, I'm doing so for prize denial (and this of course could be different if you were playing Eels or something that has things that would be Catcher stalled). I'm slightly behind on prizes. I could attack my opponent's Active, dealing with the most pertinant threat, but if I do, my Active is likely to be revenge KO'd. I'm not saying this card is stupid or completely redudndant; I'm saying that the card, from my own personal experiences, wouldn't make a difference. It would actually make me have to hit another Catcher so that I could bring the previous Active back up if I had already started 2HKO'ing an EX, as well as potentially getting my opponent out of a Terrakion start or an attempt at Catcher stalling.
I hope you find this more satisfactory
Celebi23 said:
I didn't ignore it; I just felt we had said all there was to say and didn't particularly want to get into it because we clearly see it differently. I only cropped it out because I wasn't going to address it. I did address the part where you said "Nothing has changed" talking about the format because the fact that we now have a card that does the same thing but better is quite a big change if you ask me. I'm not fond of forcing my ideas upon others, and in the end, I suppose it comes down to preference and its synergy (or lack of) with your deck. However, if you insist...
I'm assuming you were refering to this part:
Celebi23 said:
Not at all. I'm acting like a mini-Catcher is worse than a Catcher. (Wouldn't you agree?) I agree that it COULD be helpful, but more often than not, this is what I feel will happen:
Darkrai/Hydreigon- They're not going to give you anything you can KO. Most instances, your opponent can wall with the Benched Darkrai they will almost certainly have. Terrakion can be walled with Hydreigon. Not to mention eccentially everything has free retreat, plus they can move all the energy around to attack with whatever they bring up.
Eelbox- Same as Darkrai/Hydreigon for the most part, although Darkrai has more options since Eel players can't send up their energy accelerator to wall Terrakion. Most of the attackers have free retreat from Skyarrow plus they are, for the most part, bulky 170 HP EX's. If you can't KO an active Raikou, then you definately can't KO a Benched Rayquaza unless you hit for Weakness. Of course, if you do hit for Weakness on an EX, you probably will get one of the Eels instead. Although, with Eviolite and Max Potion on top of the energy discarding attacks, you still might need Tool Scrapper for the KO.
Why not run it? Because I find it irrevevant in most cases, and helpful to my opponent in some others. When I play Switch, I want to retreat. I may not want my opponent to bring anything else up. There have been instances where I've had Catcher in hand, but the only thing I wanted Active was my opponent's current Active (a Darkrai I'm about to take the second hit on, for example). I've found that later in the game, when I play Switch, I'm doing so for prize denial (and this of course could be different if you were playing Eels or something that has things that would be Catcher stalled). I'm slightly behind on prizes. I could attack my opponent's Active, dealing with the most pertinant threat, but if I do, my Active is likely to be revenge KO'd. I'm not saying this card is stupid or completely redudndant; I'm saying that the card, from my own personal experiences, wouldn't make a difference. It would actually make me have to hit another Catcher so that I could bring the previous Active back up if I had already started 2HKO'ing an EX, as well as potentially getting my opponent out of a Terrakion start or an attempt at Catcher stalling.
I hope you find this more satisfactory
LIke Celebi says. Nobody used Switch when Warp Point was out. The format was no different.
>Instead of Darkrai for free retreat, we had Gardevoir Lv. X, AMU, and Flygon
>Instead of Catcher we had Pokémon Reversal, Lanturn SF, Palkia Lv. X, and Luxray GL LV. X
and I agree with this. Warp Point was here for 8 years. I think if a card dominated the format for 8 years, it's simply too good to just overlook.
>Instead of Darkrai for free retreat, we had Gardevoir Lv. X, AMU, and Flygon
>Instead of Catcher we had Pokémon Reversal, Lanturn SF, Palkia Lv. X, and Luxray GL LV. X
and I agree with this. Warp Point was here for 8 years. I think if a card dominated the format for 8 years, it's simply too good to just overlook.
I think Escape Rope is a better card than Switch in most situations. The concept that "Your opponent will always have more than one attacker" is silly because unless you've taken so long to use Escape Rope that your opponent has multiple attackers set up (Except energy-efficient attackers like Empoleon), their "Extra Attackers" will not be able to attack instantly. D/H, and to some extent Eels, obviously isn't bothered by the switch from Escape Rope, but they aren't benefitting from it either. To claim Switch is better because neither hurt D/H nor eels is absurd. In the matchups where it makes a difference whether Switch or Escape Rope are used, Escape Rope comes out on top. In other cases...it doesn't matter, you're trying to move YOUR active.
The only issue I can see is when you need to switch and KO their current active, but to be fair, the times where your opponent will leave you in this position is dramatically low because of the usual outs able to be taken to KO their active.
The only issue I can see is when you need to switch and KO their current active, but to be fair, the times where your opponent will leave you in this position is dramatically low because of the usual outs able to be taken to KO their active.
I am glad this thread is starting to swing to a better reasoned view.
Switch is Switch, and debuted all the way back in Base Set.
Escape Rope is a wasteful re-naming of Warp Point; if they thought that "Warp Point" didn't sound "Item"-like enough, all they had to do was change the name to "Warp Tile", a physical Item (albeit it not a mobile one) from the video games, and what Warp Point was referencing anyway.
So Warp Point first released in Gym Challenge, when the "Standard" Format (e.g. the default Organized Play format) was Base-Set through Gym Challenge (as it was the latest set). So it debuted while Gust of Wind was legal, and Gust of Wind is literally Pokémon Catcher by another name. The game shifted to Modified about a year later (I don't remember the exact dates) but then we were using Warp Point in a format with Double Gust. Switch wasn't re-released until the very end of the original Modified format, and we were thrilled when Expedition (the set that released right after the rotation) brought our Warp Point back.
Warp Point has often co-existed with both Switch and some card Pokémon Catcher-like card; Gust of Wind, Double Gust, Pokémon Reversal, Pow! Hand Extension, etc. As Warp Point regularly saw play (even when Switch was present), Escape Rope was already on my radar. There will be some decks that cannot handle a card that functions as a Switch + Pokémon Circulator at once. These are the decks that will use Switch (and have continued to use it historically).
There will be times when the Pokémon Circulator part of the effect will hinder you, but it is pretty rare; even if your opponent brings up a secondary attacker, it usually isn't their top choice as Active... since if it was it would likely already have been the Active Pokémon. If your deck has anything with a free Retreat already in it, you can use the card as a Pokémon Circulator. While your opponent has the option of Retreating afterwards, that is after your attack, and in a format where attacks are either a OHKO or a 2HKO (most of the time), even bringing up something with a free Retreat isn't going to do a lot of good.
When it comes to trading blows, careful usage of Escape Rope can really throw your opponent off. It will not work all the time, but the vast majority of the time you're using this as a replacement for Switch... unless you're a budget player. Those of us lacking Pokémon Catcher will be maxing out Escape Rope; the former is superior but if you don't have it, you don't have it. Granted, most of my decks only run a clutch switch (or were proxying for Escape Rope already), so I really am surprised how many are championing Switch.
Switch is Switch, and debuted all the way back in Base Set.
Escape Rope is a wasteful re-naming of Warp Point; if they thought that "Warp Point" didn't sound "Item"-like enough, all they had to do was change the name to "Warp Tile", a physical Item (albeit it not a mobile one) from the video games, and what Warp Point was referencing anyway.
So Warp Point first released in Gym Challenge, when the "Standard" Format (e.g. the default Organized Play format) was Base-Set through Gym Challenge (as it was the latest set). So it debuted while Gust of Wind was legal, and Gust of Wind is literally Pokémon Catcher by another name. The game shifted to Modified about a year later (I don't remember the exact dates) but then we were using Warp Point in a format with Double Gust. Switch wasn't re-released until the very end of the original Modified format, and we were thrilled when Expedition (the set that released right after the rotation) brought our Warp Point back.
Warp Point has often co-existed with both Switch and some card Pokémon Catcher-like card; Gust of Wind, Double Gust, Pokémon Reversal, Pow! Hand Extension, etc. As Warp Point regularly saw play (even when Switch was present), Escape Rope was already on my radar. There will be some decks that cannot handle a card that functions as a Switch + Pokémon Circulator at once. These are the decks that will use Switch (and have continued to use it historically).
There will be times when the Pokémon Circulator part of the effect will hinder you, but it is pretty rare; even if your opponent brings up a secondary attacker, it usually isn't their top choice as Active... since if it was it would likely already have been the Active Pokémon. If your deck has anything with a free Retreat already in it, you can use the card as a Pokémon Circulator. While your opponent has the option of Retreating afterwards, that is after your attack, and in a format where attacks are either a OHKO or a 2HKO (most of the time), even bringing up something with a free Retreat isn't going to do a lot of good.
When it comes to trading blows, careful usage of Escape Rope can really throw your opponent off. It will not work all the time, but the vast majority of the time you're using this as a replacement for Switch... unless you're a budget player. Those of us lacking Pokémon Catcher will be maxing out Escape Rope; the former is superior but if you don't have it, you don't have it. Granted, most of my decks only run a clutch switch (or were proxying for Escape Rope already), so I really am surprised how many are championing Switch.
Deoxysmatter said:
Are you forgetting that in our current format, most of our main attackers are basics?
One Approved said:
You cannot say that our format hasn't changed.
Darkrai with Hydriegon is no where near the same as Gardevoir Lv.X or Flygon, because it is much more effective.
Catcher is also much better than Pokemon Reversal or Luxray GL Lv.X, because you can use 4 and then can get them back out of the discard with Sableye, who can be teched into almost any deck with Prism/Blend energy.
Let's look at it this way;
Darkrai/Hydriegon has free retreat on just about everything after they get set up (which really doesn't take that long).
Garchomp gets set up really fast thanks to Gabite, Emolga, and Level Ball, and almost always has multiple attackers in play. And if they dont, most of their pokemon have 1 retreat cost anyway.
Eels also has fast set up, and never has any reason to bring up any Eelekriks willingly, because they either have a near full bench or are losing with only 1 attacker and their Eels left.
Terrakion/Groudon I guess would have a hard time, but they usually run multiple Switch and could now use Escape Rope, which seems to be probally the only deck it will work well in.
Also since most decks in our format has a way of dealing with Catcher stall, I do believe they could deal with being able to pick who they switch with.
Otaku said:
If you can't get at least 3 Catcher then you probally aren't a competitive player, or at least don't plan on doing well in any big tournaments. Because without it, you just can't do well in this format. And Escape Rope cannot, under any circumstances, be considered a replacement for Catcher.
Normally, I would be totally willing to agree with the people saying Warp Point has always been and will always be the superior card over Switch. Up until a couple weeks ago, I was right with them.
But the fact of the matter is, the format has changed. Immensely and it's actually a non-negotiable fact. The power creep alone is so strong that if you can't see a difference between previous formats and this one, well then, I advise you to take a look at how different the games themselves were played (because there was a stark contrast between using things like Claydol and Power Spray vs. Sableye and Catcher nowadays...). Because of that, I have to believe that Switch will still be preferred. The situations where you don't want to bring another Pokemon up and still go to the bench outnumber the situations where you can still be in a favorable position by switching them out at least from what I've seen so far. More testing might be necessary to see if it can truly make a better difference, but right now, I'm just not seeing it.
dmaster out.
But the fact of the matter is, the format has changed. Immensely and it's actually a non-negotiable fact. The power creep alone is so strong that if you can't see a difference between previous formats and this one, well then, I advise you to take a look at how different the games themselves were played (because there was a stark contrast between using things like Claydol and Power Spray vs. Sableye and Catcher nowadays...). Because of that, I have to believe that Switch will still be preferred. The situations where you don't want to bring another Pokemon up and still go to the bench outnumber the situations where you can still be in a favorable position by switching them out at least from what I've seen so far. More testing might be necessary to see if it can truly make a better difference, but right now, I'm just not seeing it.
dmaster out.
dmaster said:
For the record, you just cited stuff I wasn't even considering much, because Claydol versus Power Spray occurred when I was taking a break from the game. Feel free to elaborate on how Claydol and Power Spray relate to using Warp Point over Switch. I am not saying you don't have a point, because I really don't know what it is your trying to say. I know of those cards and the basics of using them, but I don't see the connection you are implying.
Please consider explaining more. You restated your general position, but again I am not following you. In fact, some of what you said earlier would lead me to the opposite conclusion. We are in a format of OHKOs. We are in a format with Pokémon Catcher. I keep having people worry what happens if they have to Pokemon Catcher, and then use Warp Point.
...
If this is a regular occurrence, you need to be backing it up with data because it sounds uncommon at best. If the opposite scenario occurs, guess what? No harm done, and if your opponent makes a misplay you might even save a Pokémon Catcher. Can I see the times when it would be a drawback? Certainly. Most of the time, however, your opponent has the Pokémon least advantageous for you to attack up front, and my experience with the predecessor of Escape Rope (Warp Point) is a long one; Warp Point did release when Gust of Wind was still legal, you know. It also co-existed with cards that, while not as powerful as Gust of Wind or Pokémon Catcher, were still strong and of a similar design, like Pow! Hand Extension.
Keeper of the Night: I explained that using Escape Rope in place of Pokémon Catcher was for budget players. "Budget player" refers to someone who can't afford very expensive cards, and thus is usually not a very competitive player. I also clearly outlined how it is indeed a replacement for Pokémon Catcher; when you do not have a copy of Pokémon Catcher, Escape Rope is the best alternative since at least it is still an Item that can force your opponent to change out his or her Active Pokémon. The alternative is to run nothing, or run certain Pokémon that are even worse at it or else must be a major part of your deck.
Definitely escape rope.
I've never seen 2 pokemon set up before T3.
You could easily use escape rope to disrupt them.
For example, Ho oh.
Say you are playing rayeels, and you have a rayquaza up and a charged zekrom benched.
Your opponent has a Tornadus EX benched and a tornadus EP.
You use escape rope and you put up your zekrom and they put up tornadus EP ko.
I don't see any way escape rope can help your opponent if you have a good strategy.
I've never seen 2 pokemon set up before T3.
You could easily use escape rope to disrupt them.
For example, Ho oh.
Say you are playing rayeels, and you have a rayquaza up and a charged zekrom benched.
Your opponent has a Tornadus EX benched and a tornadus EP.
You use escape rope and you put up your zekrom and they put up tornadus EP ko.
I don't see any way escape rope can help your opponent if you have a good strategy.
Otaku said:
That wasn't the comparison I was making.
I was comparing _how much the game has changed_ by referencing older cards compared to the newer cards we have now. If you even take a look at what different cards did when you took a break from the game, you would see a lot of differences in the cards. This translated to how different games were played.
The underlying point I was trying to make is that the game has changed a lot. Before, there were other cards that you had to consider and nowadays, we have stronger Basic Pokemon and Pokemon Catcher. These facts compound together to make me not like Warp Point now as opposed to when it was huge in the past.
dmaster out.