SR Rayquaza. Over Hyped and Over Priced?

Heres the thing to realize
Its a secret rare.

To put this in perspective Krookondile an unplayable card is worth 15$ just because it is secret rare.

The hype for this card is actually very low, Mewtwo EX for instance was in about one box in 2. Rayquaza (shiny) is SIX times rarer.
The demand for pokemon cards is a weird curve but it goes like this

Casual won't pay over 10 for a card
Semi-competitive wont pay over 200$ for a deck
Competitive will pay 500 $ for a deck
Very competitive will pay around 2k+ for a deck (in other words think of Pooka and Jay hornung)
Group 4's demand curve for powerful cards is extremely inelastic. So while groups 1-3 get priced out around 50$ group four will take forever to get priced out.

So no the hype for this thing is low about 1/4th as much demand as mewtwo EX
 
ussgordoncaptain said:
Casual won't pay over 10 for a card
Semi-competitive wont pay over 200$ for a deck
Competitive will pay 500 $ for a deck
Very competitive will pay around 2k+ for a deck (in other words think of Pooka and Jay hornung)
Group 4's demand curve for powerful cards is extremely inelastic. So while groups 1-3 get priced out around 50$ group four will take forever to get priced out.

So no the hype for this thing is low about 1/4th as much demand as mewtwo EX

Are you sure that's not a high exaggeration for "Very competitive"? I don't know anyone in their right mind who would pay 2000 for a single deck. Maybe not even 500$...
Maybe 2000+ for cards over the year, but not on only the deck...
 
I'm going to move this over to TCG News & General Discussion because the topic has drifted more towards price discussion. Competitive uses for the card are not being discussed.

* Moved *
 
o0Flint0o said:
Are you sure that's not a high exaggeration for "Very competitive"? I don't know anyone in their right mind who would pay 2000 for a single deck. Maybe not even 500$...
Maybe 2000+ for cards over the year, but not on only the deck...
You haven't played mtg then.
But since generally the competitive auidience for a game has very inelastic demand Darkrai/Tornadus/Mewtwo was around 600$ and was very popular during the battle roads.
From card game to card game I find that the 'good' players will be very similar, in regards to budget, either buy everything needed or go home.
My general guide is that legacy in mtg has decks ranging from 1,292.15$ -to- 1,961.29$ and yet people still play.

No that's not an exaggeration, I for instance would pay around 2.3k for the BDIF if I knew it had the best chance of winning regionals.
 
ussgordoncaptain said:
You haven't played mtg then.
But since generally the competitive auidience for a game has very inelastic demand Darkrai/Tornadus/Mewtwo was around 600$ and was very popular during the battle roads.
From card game to card game I find that the 'good' players will be very similar, in regards to budget, either buy everything needed or go home.
My general guide is that legacy in mtg has decks ranging from 1,292.15$ -to- 1,961.29$ and yet people still play.

No that's not an exaggeration, I for instance would pay around 2.3k for the BDIF if I knew it had the best chance of winning regionals.

I don't play MTG. Don't know why you would bring it up here, on a Pokemon Forum...
I take back the "Not sure about spending 500 bucks" part, but I really still think 2k for a single deck is outrageous.

Back to the forum topic, don't buy the SR Rayquaza since Dragon vault is coming soon. (Unless you really want that SR version. It's your money.)
 
I do want the SR Rayquaza...but I'll wait for Dragon's Vault to come out, hopefully at that point the price will fall to something a little more manageable.

I can't say much about over hyped, though I do play it's not nearly as much as others do. But as for overpriced, I completley agree with that one. Honestly I think even fifty is a bit much. Ordinarily I would think twenty to twenty five would be as high as any card SHOULD go. Doesn't mean that's how it works in reality.
 
I think that SR Rayquaza is definitely overhyped, although it does have it's pros and cons. Its main selling point is that it can do 40 damage t1, donking Tynamo, Gible, {DRG} Deino, and Swablu. Although yeah, you might see those as starters sometimes, most of the time you'll be seeing Emolga, which you don't even OHKO. It can also do a late game 90 in Rayeels, but Zekrom or even Terrakion would be better at that. It's self-milling drawback can be awful too, especially in evolving decks where you can end up discarding a Gible or a Swablu, making your setup that much slower. It also has an awful retreat for an early game starter, forcing it to selfmill until you can draw a switch, or waste a ton of energy getting it out of the active slot. It's also awful if you run into anything with Registeel, Kyurem, Raikou, Zapdos, Zebstrika, Dusknoir, Flygon, etc. Basically anything that spread or snipes can catcher you up and take you weak 40 damage hits while spreading to the bench. Good luck facing Durant, Aggron, or Kyurem, because you're gonna go down fast if you even think about dropping this thing. It's also horribly overpriced, though less so since the announcement of Dragon Vault. $60 is a bit much for a card with only average playability, even if it does look incredibly awesome, but it is to be expected because SHINY RAYQUAZA.
 
I think this card is probaply a $40 at best because it is decent, but $100 is too much. I dont see this being a great card becuase it mills you only do 40 and has an aweful retreat. The artwork is amazing and the dragon symbol under his attacks feels awesome. To get to the point I think Rayquaza EX is better
 
I feel that Rayquaza SR will most likely drop to about the $25-30. It would normally drop to $15 our below like the other shinies, but since it is a shiny Rayquaza, it will have some extra value added to it. Also, the fact that it is playable will keep its value up there (like Shiny Catcher).
And I don't think it won't be like Rayquaza * because no matter the pull rates, it is still way more mass produced than Rayquaza *.
Also, it won't end up like Rayquaza SL10 because the image of the SR is slightly more attractive, and the SR is much rarer (and is also somewhat playable).
 
ussgordoncaptain said:
The hype for this card is actually very low, Mewtwo EX for instance was in about one box in 2. Rayquaza (shiny) is SIX times rarer.
The demand for pokemon cards is a weird curve but it goes like this

Sorry, the statistician in me wants to disagree with these odds.

Figuring 3 EXs average per NXD box, and 6 possible EXs, the odds of getting a Mewtwo EX sound on par with one card in two boxes.
(1/72 packs) = Mewtwo EX odds of pack pull (NXD)

Figuring 1 Secret Rare in two boxes (I believe this is correct?) and four possible Secret Rares in DRX, the odds of getting that precious Rayquaza are 1 in 8 boxes.
(1/288 packs) = odds of Secret Rare Rayquaza pull (DRX)

The Rayquaza, then, is 4 times as rare as the Mewtwo EX. Figuring from the remarkably low pull-rate, exclusive nature of the card AND popularity, I'd guess $40-50 would be fair (not that I'd pay that). When the normal print comes out in the Dragon Vault set, I'd guess that the Secret Rare would drop to $25-30, which is much nicer than the $100 he had hit previously.

--And in other news, I completely missed when Pokemon Catcher surpassed $15. That is... unfortunate, to say the least, that such a staple would have no (readily available) extra prints.
 
Mayer said:
Well, let's look at it... It's a black Rayquaza, just what did you expect? $2? It is so expensive not only because it is playable, but also because it is Rayquaza. A lot of people love Rayquaza, and that explains part of it. Think about it. The most expensive Gold Star is Rayquaza, right? In theory, that card should have only been $50 like the Lati Stars, because the edgewear right from a pack theory applies to all of them, and they are equally rare, right? Well, the reason Rayquaza Star is almost 3 times as expensive is because it is Rayquaza. Everyone loves Rayquaza,and that makes it more desirable, and thus people pay more for it. The same applies to this Rayquaza. it is one in every what, 12 boxes? If it were, say, Giratina secret rare with the exact same attacks, it would be half the price, because Giratina isn't as desirable as Rayquaza. I know people who would argue that, but that is beside the point. The playability also lends to the value just as not knowing the release date of the non SR. Now that we know we will be getting it before Regs, the price should drop by about $15-$20, but it will always be one of those things, like Gold Catcher, that stays high because it is desirable. You can get a regular Catcher for $10, but the Gold still goes for around $40. Why? because it is rarer, and it is human nature to want the rarer version. That is why Rayquaza will drop, but never below $35.

It seems like no one has read this but I agree with you 100%. Rayquaza has been my favorite pokemon for a long time so I have personally seen it's TCG value go up in price as it's popularity has skyrocketed in the last few years. Rayquaza cards I very desirable so I believe most of the value associated with this new rayquaza isn't due to it's playablity rather it's desirability for being a sick looking rayquaza card. Rayquaza's popularity actually makes me believe that rayquaza could be the next charizard as it is rarely playable but always expensive just because its cool.
 
I dont feel it lose its value to much. The odds of getting a SR Rayquaza are aprrox 1 in every 432 packs. A pack at walmart costs 4.51 after tax so one pack out of every 1948.32 dollars worth of cards will have a SR Rayquaza. The card is decently playable but not a staple in decks like Darkrai EX or Rayquaza EX. I think that the Dragon Vault version will hold a decent (20 MAX) value and SR rayquaza will still sell for around 50-60 on ebay to collectors and the occasional player that has alot of money and likes to have a flashy deck. I do like what people said comparing it to base Charizard. Its all about poplularity. Mew EX for instance is a barley playable card that is worth more than any of the other EXs from Drx because its Mew. Rayquaza EX is alot more playable than Mew and is insanley popular but Mew is more expensive because Mew is more popular. EXs all have the same rarity card price all depends on demand for that card. Imagine if they made a secret rare Mew, the prices would be unheard of. Mew, Charizard, Rayquaza, Celebi etc are always going to be higher priced due to popularity. Playability in my eyes doesnt raise prices like popularity of the pokemon itself does. Darkrai and Mewtwo are both so expensive because of their combined popularity and playability (untill the tins). Anyways most shinys are not even as expensive as most of the EXs in their sets except Golden Catcher and Shiny Quaza because of the hype of those 2 and a shiny is way harder to pull. I think it would be cool if they kept doing 1 insanely popular legendary per set but i do give TPCi credit for not making any of the shinies crazy playable without a regular versions of the cards. It sets it up for their to be a "dream pull" in each set but at the same time be able to get a different version of the card if its really playable like golden catcher and even emboar was playable. I pulled a shiny ray out of a box and it was an awesome feeling pulling such a rare card!! I think it would be nice to see a shiny charizard or darkrai or celebi in the next set. Its all about balance and i think TPCi has done a great job because while quaza is decent it isnt completely neccesary in decks and they are coming out with a version of it in dragon vault mini set so i cant wait to see what the next shiny is!!!
 
exdarkrai01 said:
I dont feel it lose its value to much. The odds of getting a SR Rayquaza are aprrox 1 in every 432 packs. A pack at walmart costs 4.51 after tax so one pack out of every 1948.32 dollars worth of cards will have a SR Rayquaza. The card is decently playable but not a staple in decks like Darkrai EX or Rayquaza EX. I think that the Dragon Vault version will hold a decent (20 MAX) value and SR rayquaza will still sell for around 50-60 on ebay to collectors and the occasional player that has alot of money and likes to have a flashy deck. I do like what people said comparing it to base Charizard. Its all about poplularity. Mew EX for instance is a barley playable card that is worth more than any of the other EXs from Drx because its Mew. Rayquaza EX is alot more playable than Mew and is insanley popular but Mew is more expensive because Mew is more popular. EXs all have the same rarity card price all depends on demand for that card. Imagine if they made a secret rare Mew, the prices would be unheard of. Mew, Charizard, Rayquaza, Celebi etc are always going to be higher priced due to popularity. Playability in my eyes doesnt raise prices like popularity of the pokemon itself does. Darkrai and Mewtwo are both so expensive because of their combined popularity and playability (untill the tins). Anyways most shinys are not even as expensive as most of the EXs in their sets except Golden Catcher and Shiny Quaza because of the hype of those 2 and a shiny is way harder to pull. I think it would be cool if they kept doing 1 insanely popular legendary per set but i do give TPCi credit for not making any of the shinies crazy playable without a regular versions of the cards. It sets it up for their to be a "dream pull" in each set but at the same time be able to get a different version of the card if its really playable like golden catcher and even emboar was playable. I pulled a shiny ray out of a box and it was an awesome feeling pulling such a rare card!! I think it would be nice to see a shiny charizard or darkrai or celebi in the next set. Its all about balance and i think TPCi has done a great job because while quaza is decent it isnt completely neccesary in decks and they are coming out with a version of it in dragon vault mini set so i cant wait to see what the next shiny is!!!


Have you ever heard of the ex series? Ya know, with the first ex cards (before EX).
Well, they contain a secret rare Mew, a shiny Charizard, Rayquaza, and Celebi already, and the prices for those now are practically set in stone (there's very little variation).
Speaking of prices, let's go over them! :D
Secret Rare Mew is no more like $10, probably like $5 (I have to double check, but it should be a good guess).
Shiny Charizard (Charizard Gold Star) is about $50-$60 NM+.
Shiny Rayquaza (Rayquaza Gold Star) is about $90-$100 NM+. The reason this card is so expensive though, is not only because the pull rates for ex Deoxys (the set it came in) were like one Gold Star every two boxes, but Rayquaza Gold Star was made wrong or something and almost every card out there experiences peeling on the front edges, which ruins it's NM+ condition, so NM+ cards go for rather high prices (like $90 or more) while less that NM cards still go for a good amount (because of the extreme rarity). Now, you may be saying "Well SR Rayquaza also has some hard pull rates, so shouldn't it's value be just as high?" The answer is no. Why? Because if you look at the print records of both cards, you'll see that there are way more SR Rayquazas printed than Rayquaza Gold Stars because Pokemon cards are a lot more popular then they were back then.
Shiny Celebi (Celebi Gold Star) is like a $20-$25 card when NM+.

And the popularity of a card does add to the value, but (at least in this case) not enough to keep a card above $50 (or even $30 for that matter). When cards first come out, it is primarily the playability that drives the price up (that's why Darkrai EX and like cards fetched like $80+). However, popularity (because of the Pokemon and the new set) adds to the first prices of cards. This can be seen with every new EX card that comes out - although some are more playable than others, when they first come out, almost all of them have a "high" value (there values were higher than they are now). Both of those reasons, along with the crazy pull rates for the card, are what drove SR Rayquaza to be a $100 card. The card was though to be rather playable (although now it is only mildly playable), it was a shiny Rayquaza, which are always popular, and then it was very hard to pull, which makes it rare and hard to get a hold of. These 3 factors (popularity, playability, and rarity) combined can make any card very high in value, and each factor contributes value to cards (so a card with at least 1 will be worth more than a card with none/less).
But then there are factors that counter those 3 mentioned above. One of these is time. As time goes on after a new set is released, players build new strategies with the new cards, and the truly playable cards emerge. With SR Rayquaza, players realized the card wasn't as playable as thought, so less people wanted it, the demand dropped, and the price fell with it. A major counter-factor is also the non-ultra rare print or reprint. Almost all playable cards have/get a reprint. Darkrai EX got a reprint with the tin promos, and SR Rayquaza got a non-ultra rare print with the release of the Dragon Vault box. Other Ultra Rares released in sets sometimes tend to already have non-ultra rare prints in the set, which kicks the value of the Ultra Rare down when playability is a factor in the pricing (as time goes on, playability becomes less and less a factor, especially when a set is rotated out).

Oh, and also, you cannot use the pack cost times the pull rates to estimate a card value (like the ~$2,000 pack price you quoted for SR Rayquaza). This is because not everyone spends ~$2,000 to get their SR Rayquaza. Thousands of packs get opened, and out of those thousands, an appropriate ratio of SR Rayquaza's get pulled. The reason this is important is that I can go buy 2 packs from Walmart for under $10, and pull a SR Rayquaza. That doesn't mean I'm gonna go sell it for hundreds of dollars because the card, based on its pull rates, would be expensive to pull. You see what I mean? Pull Rates are not specific to each person. I am not going to have to open 432 packs to get a SR Rayqauza - I might only have to open a few, or a handful. Because the pull rates vary per person, the price is not some ridiculously high number that reflects the cost of packs needed to pull it based on pull rates.



PS: I say all of this to contribute to the information of whoever decides to read it. I in no way meant to sound/be rude, offensive, or mean by typing anything above.
 
Daelum said:
Have you ever heard of the ex series? Ya know, with the first ex cards (before EX).
Well, they contain a secret rare Mew, a shiny Charizard, Rayquaza, and Celebi already, and the prices for those now are practically set in stone (there's very little variation).
Speaking of prices, let's go over them! :D
Secret Rare Mew is no more like $10, probably like $5 (I have to double check, but it should be a good guess).
Shiny Charizard (Charizard Gold Star) is about $50-$60 NM+.
Shiny Rayquaza (Rayquaza Gold Star) is about $90-$100 NM+. The reason this card is so expensive though, is not only because the pull rates for ex Deoxys (the set it came in) were like one Gold Star every two boxes, but Rayquaza Gold Star was made wrong or something and almost every card out there experiences peeling on the front edges, which ruins it's NM+ condition, so NM+ cards go for rather high prices (like $90 or more) while less that NM cards still go for a good amount (because of the extreme rarity). Now, you may be saying "Well SR Rayquaza also has some hard pull rates, so shouldn't it's value be just as high?" The answer is no. Why? Because if you look at the print records of both cards, you'll see that there are way more SR Rayquazas printed than Rayquaza Gold Stars because Pokemon cards are a lot more popular then they were back then.
Shiny Celebi (Celebi Gold Star) is like a $20-$25 card when NM+.

And the popularity of a card does add to the value, but (at least in this case) not enough to keep a card above $50 (or even $30 for that matter). When cards first come out, it is primarily the playability that drives the price up (that's why Darkrai EX and like cards fetched like $80+). However, popularity (because of the Pokemon and the new set) adds to the first prices of cards. This can be seen with every new EX card that comes out - although some are more playable than others, when they first come out, almost all of them have a "high" value (there values were higher than they are now). Both of those reasons, along with the crazy pull rates for the card, are what drove SR Rayquaza to be a $100 card. The card was though to be rather playable (although now it is only mildly playable), it was a shiny Rayquaza, which are always popular, and then it was very hard to pull, which makes it rare and hard to get a hold of. These 3 factors (popularity, playability, and rarity) combined can make any card very high in value, and each factor contributes value to cards (so a card with at least 1 will be worth more than a card with none/less).
But then there are factors that counter those 3 mentioned above. One of these is time. As time goes on after a new set is released, players build new strategies with the new cards, and the truly playable cards emerge. With SR Rayquaza, players realized the card wasn't as playable as thought, so less people wanted it, the demand dropped, and the price fell with it. A major counter-factor is also the non-ultra rare print or reprint. Almost all playable cards have/get a reprint. Darkrai EX got a reprint with the tin promos, and SR Rayquaza got a non-ultra rare print with the release of the Dragon Vault box. Other Ultra Rares released in sets sometimes tend to already have non-ultra rare prints in the set, which kicks the value of the Ultra Rare down when playability is a factor in the pricing (as time goes on, playability becomes less and less a factor, especially when a set is rotated out).

Oh, and also, you cannot use the pack cost times the pull rates to estimate a card value (like the ~$2,000 pack price you quoted for SR Rayquaza). This is because not everyone spends ~$2,000 to get their SR Rayquaza. Thousands of packs get opened, and out of those thousands, an appropriate ratio of SR Rayquaza's get pulled. The reason this is important is that I can go buy 2 packs from Walmart for under $10, and pull a SR Rayquaza. That doesn't mean I'm gonna go sell it for hundreds of dollars because the card, based on its pull rates, would be expensive to pull. You see what I mean? Pull Rates are not specific to each person. I am not going to have to open 432 packs to get a SR Rayqauza - I might only have to open a few, or a handful. Because the pull rates vary per person, the price is not some ridiculously high number that reflects the cost of packs needed to pull it based on pull rates.



PS: I say all of this to contribute to the information of whoever decides to read it. I in no way meant to sound/be rude, offensive, or mean by typing anything above.
I wish Pokebeach had a "like" button. I agree with this completely.
 
I did! I really dont want to know how much money its gonna cost. Im just talking by price the average amount of money in packs sold for each pack that has a shiny rayquaza but i do agree with what you said. Its just extremely unlikely that you can spend 10 and get one. Ive opened around 70 packs and only 1 so far!
 
Iwish there was a dislike button. Just because someone bought 2 packs of cards and packed a shiny rayquaza doesn't mean it's any more common to pull. For every person it takes $10 to pack a shiny rayquaza it takes someone else 20 boxes of cards to pull a shiny rayquaza.
Daelum said:
Have you ever heard of the ex series? Ya know, with the first ex cards (before EX).
Well, they contain a secret rare Mew, a shiny Charizard, Rayquaza, and Celebi already, and the prices for those now are practically set in stone (there's very little variation).
Speaking of prices, let's go over them! :D
Secret Rare Mew is no more like $10, probably like $5 (I have to double check, but it should be a good guess).
Shiny Charizard (Charizard Gold Star) is about $50-$60 NM+.
Shiny Rayquaza (Rayquaza Gold Star) is about $90-$100 NM+. The reason this card is so expensive though, is not only because the pull rates for ex Deoxys (the set it came in) were like one Gold Star every two boxes, but Rayquaza Gold Star was made wrong or something and almost every card out there experiences peeling on the front edges, which ruins it's NM+ condition, so NM+ cards go for rather high prices (like $90 or more) while less that NM cards still go for a good amount (because of the extreme rarity). Now, you may be saying "Well SR Rayquaza also has some hard pull rates, so shouldn't it's value be just as high?" The answer is no. Why? Because if you look at the print records of both cards, you'll see that there are way more SR Rayquazas printed than Rayquaza Gold Stars because Pokemon cards are a lot more popular then they were back then.
Shiny Celebi (Celebi Gold Star) is like a $20-$25 card when NM+.

And the popularity of a card does add to the value, but (at least in this case) not enough to keep a card above $50 (or even $30 for that matter). When cards first come out, it is primarily the playability that drives the price up (that's why Darkrai EX and like cards fetched like $80+). However, popularity (because of the Pokemon and the new set) adds to the first prices of cards. This can be seen with every new EX card that comes out - although some are more playable than others, when they first come out, almost all of them have a "high" value (there values were higher than they are now). Both of those reasons, along with the crazy pull rates for the card, are what drove SR Rayquaza to be a $100 card. The card was though to be rather playable (although now it is only mildly playable), it was a shiny Rayquaza, which are always popular, and then it was very hard to pull, which makes it rare and hard to get a hold of. These 3 factors (popularity, playability, and rarity) combined can make any card very high in value, and each factor contributes value to cards (so a card with at least 1 will be worth more than a card with none/less).
But then there are factors that counter those 3 mentioned above. One of these is time. As time goes on after a new set is released, players build new strategies with the new cards, and the truly playable cards emerge. With SR Rayquaza, players realized the card wasn't as playable as thought, so less people wanted it, the demand dropped, and the price fell with it. A major counter-factor is also the non-ultra rare print or reprint. Almost all playable cards have/get a reprint. Darkrai EX got a reprint with the tin promos, and SR Rayquaza got a non-ultra rare print with the release of the Dragon Vault box. Other Ultra Rares released in sets sometimes tend to already have non-ultra rare prints in the set, which kicks the value of the Ultra Rare down when playability is a factor in the pricing (as time goes on, playability becomes less and less a factor, especially when a set is rotated out).

Oh, and also, you cannot use the pack cost times the pull rates to estimate a card value (like the ~$2,000 pack price you quoted for SR Rayquaza). This is because not everyone spends ~$2,000 to get their SR Rayquaza. Thousands of packs get opened, and out of those thousands, an appropriate ratio of SR Rayquaza's get pulled. The reason this is important is that I can go buy 2 packs from Walmart for under $10, and pull a SR Rayquaza. That doesn't mean I'm gonna go sell it for hundreds of dollars because the card, based on its pull rates, would be expensive to pull. You see what I mean? Pull Rates are not specific to each person. I am not going to have to open 432 packs to get a SR Rayqauza - I might only have to open a few, or a handful. Because the pull rates vary per person, the price is not some ridiculously high number that reflects the cost of packs needed to pull it based on pull rates.



PS: I say all of this to contribute to the information of whoever decides to read it. I in no way meant to sound/be rude, offensive, or mean by typing anything above.
 
I have heard that this card is really good running four of them with a 4-4 Altaria. Donno never seen it just heard it before.
 
I would seriously laugh if this got a reprint in that next mini-set. Just like how I laughed at guys who tossed a ton of money to buy their Mewtwo and gets tinned. Besides, knowing Pokemon, what's very good now would probably be just average a few months later.
 
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