Discussion Standard Meta Tier List

[TheDude133]

Because your set up might not be complete and keeping your Froakie based line on the bench is the safest way to ensure there will eventually be a Greninja BREAK on it in the first place. We are talking BREAK stage 2 Pokemon here and I really don't know how Ninetales' Safeguard somehow is left out of the discussion here.
When I'm going into Alolan Ninetales I'm not only covering the GX side but also the regular one from BUS.

It's left out because its bad lol. Let me list the reason you don't play Ninetails GX in a Greninja BREAK deck.

1. Its a GX in a deck that doesnt run GX's. The whole point to the deck is to win the 1 for 2 prize trade, this completly negates that.
2. Metal weakness when Metagross is one of the Top 3 decks right now and going into next format, meaning its a free kill.
3. Searchablility. Are you seroiusly going to dedicate your only search card in Ultra Ball to a Ninetails and not your Frogadiers/Greninja?
4. Too long to make use of it. It has two energy cost to do anything. and the deck doesn't run much free energy to begin with. All of your energy goes to Greninja for Water Shurikin.
5. No one, and I mean NO ONE with a brain, would ever Water Shuriken, then retreat into something that can't do anything. If you have Greninja BREAK on board, you have a Water energy to attack with. So you will attack with Greninja.
6. Deck Space. What sounds better? Playing 1-1 Ninetails GX for a "big HP wall", or playing 1-1 Starmie for Energy Retrieval/1-1 Octillary for the Draw Power.
7. Bad tech. Even if you are talking about the little Alolan Ninetails, you are still playing a 1-1 line in a deck that is designed to beat the big EX/GX decks. You send that up, and its going to get bypassed by Guzma. If it doesn't, how do you plan on getting out of active? The only good way would be to Guzma it, but are you going to waste a Guzma as a switch card? If you retreat, then Greninja is stuck as active and Ninetails is useless. If you play float stone, thats deck space that you're clogging up. It's a bad tech.

Playing either one of the Ninetails in Greninja is just a bad idea. The deck works better without them, and there's better, more useful techs to play.

As before, if your not willing to try it, explain why you deem it to be bad? Is it because it does not assist in the set up? (Because it clearly does) Or is it because you don't feel you need time to complete the Greninja BREAK evolution line? (Because you do). Alolan Vulpix assists in the set up, Alolan Ninetales gives you the time...

It doesn't do anything for the set up. It doesn't draw, search, or give you any kind of card advantage. Vulpix does, maybe, but if you go first, you want your first attack to be Frogadier, and if you go second, MAYBE you can justify the Vulpix, but unless you play a lot of it, you aren't getting any value out of it. And if you go second, its almost 100% better to play Talonflame anyways. So where does it help the set-up? And Yeah, you need time, but let me waste that time but trying to get out the clunky Ninetails line, rather than getting my Greninja line going.

 

[JDA]

Its really up to you to use it and test it. Dismiss it and again Ill say its your loss. In regards to your points:

1. No deck's point is to win the 1 for 2 prize trade, especially not if one is a minimum 4 card investment for 1 Pokemon while the other is 1 to 2 cards. The idea that it wins on the fact that it hands out less prices is nonsence because your losing twice the ammount of cards and require twice the ammount of set up time. This is the prime weakness of any BREAK stage 2 plan.
2. Metal weakness to Metagross GX is irrelevant to Alolan Ninetales.
3. You have likely not noticed how Beacon allows you to search for any two Pokemon. If your opponent is going on the likely faster offence with a GX or EX again Alolan Ninetales is the better choice as just giving up Alolan Vulpix.
4. Somehow you seem to miss out on DCE...
5. I think this really shows how you likely currently fail as a competitive player. If you do not see the benifit of using Water Shuriken twice to switch back into Alolan Ninetales while your opponent has a EX and GX active I can only say to learn to play at a higher level.
6. Drawpower is not what Starmie gives you. Running Octillery can be done and Im not saying you shouldn't run the line next to it.
7. Guzma is not the all out awnser to it, especially not if you do run (as suggested) multiple Vulpix with both Alolan Ninetales variants. Its up to the player to read the boardstate. However as you have gracefully showed in your post I deem it very unlikely your able to actually read that. As you somehow are either unaware of Alolan Ninetales succes or what the card is doing.

Alolan Ninetales gives you the time for your set up, as such it does the best thing you can do for your set up and that is present a Pokemon that cannot be awnsered by attacks from GX or EX Pokemon. Alolan Vulpix searches, gaining another turn gives you draw time and thus card advantage.
If you think Alolan Vulpix is clunky it speaks about your quality as a player. As it's the least clunkiest basic out there. The beauty of the Alolan Vulpix + Ninetales set up is that you do not have to invest energy into it at all. Which you ideally do not do because it's not your main attacker. However when the option presents itself to you you can go aggressive on Alolan Ninetales GX, not a single search required as you play with the hand you are given and do not force luck to be a large part of the strategy in order to set up at all. As before, feel free to dismiss the card, you'll come back on those words soon enough.

Cheers,

 

[TheDude133]

Its really up to you to use it and test it. Dismiss it and again Ill say its your loss. In regards to your points:

1. No deck's point is to win the 1 for 2 prize trade, especially not if one is a minimum 4 card investment for 1 Pokemon while the other is 1 to 2 cards. The idea that it wins on the fact that it hands out less prices is nonsence because your losing twice the ammount of cards and require twice the ammount of set up time. This is the prime weakness of any BREAK stage 2 plan.
2. Metal weakness to Metagross GX is irrelevant to Alolan Ninetales.
3. You have likely not noticed how Beacon allows you to search for any two Pokemon. If your opponent is going on the likely faster offence with a GX or EX again Alolan Ninetales is the better choice as just giving up Alolan Vulpix.
4. Somehow you seem to miss out on DCE...
5. I think this really shows how you likely currently fail as a competitive player. If you do not see the benifit of using Water Shuriken twice to switch back into Alolan Ninetales while your opponent has a EX and GX active I can only say to learn to play at a higher level.
6. Drawpower is not what Starmie gives you. Running Octillery can be done and Im not saying you shouldn't run the line next to it.
7. Guzma is not the all out awnser to it, especially not if you do run (as suggested) multiple Vulpix with both Alolan Ninetales variants. Its up to the player to read the boardstate. However as you have gracefully showed in your post I deem it very unlikely your able to actually read that. As you somehow are either unaware of Alolan Ninetales succes or what the card is doing.

Alolan Ninetales gives you the time for your set up, as such it does the best thing you can do for your set up and that is present a Pokemon that cannot be awnsered by attacks from GX or EX Pokemon. Alolan Vulpix searches, gaining another turn gives you draw time and thus card advantage.
If you think Alolan Vulpix is clunky it speaks about your quality as a player. As it's the least clunkiest basic out there. The beauty of the Alolan Vulpix + Ninetales set up is that you do not have to invest energy into it at all. Which you ideally do not do because it's not your main attacker. However when the option presents itself to you you can go aggressive on Alolan Ninetales GX, not a single search required as you play with the hand you are given and do not force luck to be a large part of the strategy in order to set up at all. As before, feel free to dismiss the card, you'll come back on those words soon enough.

Cheers,

You clearly don't understand how Greninja works if you don't think that the whole point to the deck is the 1 for 2 prize trade. That's why most Greninja decks cut the Tapu-Lele GX and Shaymin EX all together.

I'm talking about the GX for weakness.

Beacon is only good if you open it and you are going second, otherwise Frogadier is the better first attack.

Yeah, let me play DCE in Greninja along with my four splash energy and 6 Water, that won't be clunky at all.

Lol, because making a good deck bad with useless techs is playing at a higher level. I'd love to see you get two Shurikens off then drop back into Ninetails for multiple turns. That means you're using your Guzma's recklessly. Talk about Higher Play.

1-1 Starmie for Energy Retrieval

I never said Starmie give you draw power, but thanks for reading.

What success? Show me a Tournament winning Deckless that has the smaller Ninetails. Its not winning in Japan. So where is it winning? BTW, this is from Liverpool Regional a couple weeks ago https://ptcgdecklist.tumblr.com/image/163676129743

I would love to see a decklist that you can provide that has a full Ninetails line with a full Greninja Break line. Because that would be laughable at best.

 

[JDA]

If you think Tapu Lele GX and Shaymin EX serve the same function as Alolan Ninetales GX the laughable part is that you decide to respond at all with the notion that Alolan Vulpix and Ninetales will not work for your deck.

The GX weakness is as relevant as you choose it to be. The deck does not solely run GX and as the initial posts mentions is there to support Greninja BREAK.

Beacon is not only good if you open it and go second. However what is shown is your inexperience on how good 0 energy attacks actually are.

You deem the cards to be useless, your loss. You ask for a decklist for cards you deem useless? Thats a laughable request.

 

[TheDude133]

If you think Tapu Lele GX and Shaymin EX serve the same function as Alolan Ninetales GX the laughable part is that you decide to respond at all with the notion that Alolan Vulpix and Ninetales will not work for your deck.

The GX weakness is as relevant as you choose it to be. The deck does not solely run GX and as the initial posts mentions is there to support Greninja BREAK.

Beacon is not only good if you open it and go second. However what is shown is your inexperience on how good 0 energy attacks actually are.

You deem the cards to be useless, your loss. You ask for a decklist for cards you deem useless? Thats a laughable request.

Lol, Shaymin and Tapu-Lele serve a lot more to the deck than a Ninetails would. The point is, it's a GX pokemon that can be easily knocked out, costing you two prizes, and hurting the grind game that Greninja has. And personally, A pokemon that searches/draws cards and advances my gamestate is a lot better than a fragile wall that can be very easily worked around.

It doesn't need to revolve around the GX, if I'm playing Metagross and i see that Nintails GX, its gone, and i'll take my free prizes.

Being a Metagross Player, and a former YanmegaZone player, I know exactly how good no energy attacks are.

I was a decklist because i want you to put your money where your mouth is. You didn't reply to some of my other points because you have no argument. Show me a decklist that can fit a Ninetails line, a full Greninja BREAK line and the necessary Trainers/Supporters to function correctly AND be consistent enough to place at a high level event. You're dodging, because you know there isn't a good list for "Ninetails/Greninja BREAK"

 

[JDA]

Lol, Shaymin and Tapu-Lele serve a lot more to the deck than a Ninetails would. The point is, it's a GX pokemon that can be easily knocked out, costing you two prizes, and hurting the grind game that Greninja has. And personally, A pokemon that searches/draws cards and advances my gamestate is a lot better than a fragile wall that can be very easily worked around.

It doesn't need to revolve around the GX, if I'm playing Metagross and i see that Nintails GX, its gone, and i'll take my free prizes.

Being a Metagross Player, and a former YanmegaZone player, I know exactly how good no energy attacks are.

I was a decklist because i want you to put your money where your mouth is. You didn't reply to some of my other points because you have no argument. Show me a decklist that can fit a Ninetails line, a full Greninja BREAK line and the necessary Trainers/Supporters to function correctly AND be consistent enough to place at a high level event. You're dodging, because you know there isn't a good list for "Ninetails/Greninja BREAK"

I am suprised how much you seem to be capable to fool yourself. Alolan Ninetales GX is not easier KO´ed as Greninja BREAK. The fact that it costs two prizes remains an optional choice. There are two Alolan Ninetales and both have a different functionality.

As the deck runs Greninja BREAK aswell, why would you have Alolan Ninetales GX there if it is not required.

You seem to be unable to understand the basic advantages of Alolan Ninetales as a trio of cards. As such I have no hope for you to understand them in a functional deck. I have responded to all your useless arguments. What you seem to unable to process is how Greninja needs Pokemon to function. I am fully aware of what I can do with this engine, you are not. That is not my problem.

 

[Latte1504]

Alolan Ninetales has no advantage. Greninja naturally trashes most EX/GX decks, and the GX is a GX. Greninja wins by not playing any EX/GX.

 

[TheDude133]

I'm done wasting my time on this. You clearly don't understand why it is bad to play Ninetails, either GX or Non-GX, in a Greninja BREAK deck.

 

[Trainer Josh]

I am suprised how much you seem to be capable to fool yourself. Alolan Ninetales GX is not easier KO´ed as Greninja BREAK. The fact that it costs two prizes remains an optional choice. There are two Alolan Ninetales and both have a different functionality.

As the deck runs Greninja BREAK aswell, why would you have Alolan Ninetales GX there if it is not required.

You seem to be unable to understand the basic advantages of Alolan Ninetales as a trio of cards. As such I have no hope for you to understand them in a functional deck. I have responded to all your useless arguments. What you seem to unable to process is how Greninja needs Pokemon to function. I am fully aware of what I can do with this engine, you are not. That is not my problem.

Greninja really doesn't need a search engine like Alolan Vulpix that can only search for Pokémon. It already has tons of items and draw support cards to serve that exact purpose. The way I see it, if you want to run the Baby Alolan Ninetales for the wall it provides, Alolan Vulpix is merely a plus, not some sort of cornerstone to base Greninja around. Also piece of advice for the upcoming format, Metagross decks are on the rise because it is strong against Alolan Ninetales-GX and Gardevoir-GX (both of whom are tier 1 decks next rotation). So adding an Alolan Ninetales-GX into your deck strongly hurts the Metagross matchup Greninja usually wins.

 

[CaptZero]

I'm done wasting my time on this. You clearly don't understand why it is bad to play Ninetails, either GX or Non-GX, in a Greninja BREAK deck.

To be fair if you're running the Vulpix to search anyway a single copy of baby Alolan Ninetales could have merit as a wall is you're sluggish in your set-up.

 

[CaptZero]

Greninja really doesn't need a search engine like Alolan Vulpix that can only search for Pokémon. It already has tons of items and draw support cards to serve that exact purpose. The way I see it, if you want to run the Baby Alolan Ninetales for the wall it provides, Alolan Vulpix is merely a plus, not some sort of cornerstone to base Greninja around. Also piece of advice for the upcoming format, Metagross decks are on the rise because it is strong against Alolan Ninetales-GX and Gardevoir-GX (both of whom are tier 1 decks next rotation). So adding an Alolan Ninetales-GX into your deck strongly hurts the Metagross matchup Greninja usually wins.

Greninja does lose Dive Ball in the rotation so Vulpix might be decent. It's that or Brooklet Hill which has it's issues.

 

[TheDude133]

To be fair if you're running the Vulpix to search anyway a single copy of baby Alolan Ninetales could have merit as a wall is you're sluggish in your set-up.

Yes and no. If you're playing Vulpix, you would want four of it because you want to start it if you go second, otherwise it's attack isn't worth playing. That's why Talonflame is so good in the deck, if you open it, it helps build your advantage. But if you don't, it's a dead card. The reason I say you wouldn't play it, is because people have gone away from the Talonflame build to add cards like Starmie in so they can have an Energy Retriever, or Octillary/Mallow for strong draw support. And that is where my argument sits, that is better to play the Starmie/Octillary over playing Talonflame/Vulpix (By extension Ninetails). Not to mention the fact that playing multiple Ninetails would cause consistency issues as well. I don't think the ability Ninetails is bad, I just think it's bad in Greninja pre/post-rotation.

 

[TheDude133]

Greninja does lose Dive Ball in the rotation so Vulpix might be decent. It's that or Brooklet Hill which has it's issues.

Most Greninja players I've spoken to would rather play the Brooklet Hill over Vulpix. The reason being that if they ever go first, they would rather see Brooklet Hill for Staryu/Remoraid, than see a Vulpix that they don't want to attack with turn 2. It's a lot like the Talonflame discussion, but this time there's an alternative in Brooklet Hill.

 

[CaptZero]

Most Greninja players I've spoken to would rather play the Brooklet Hill over Vulpix. The reason being that if they ever go first, they would rather see Brooklet Hill for Staryu/Remoraid, than see a Vulpix that they don't want to attack with turn 2. It's a lot like the Talonflame discussion, but this time there's an alternative in Brooklet Hill.

Right, but Brooklet Hill can't grab you stage 1 or stage 2 pokemon. It's a trade off.

 

[Elray]

Update soon?

 

[Trixss]

Update soon?

Thanks for the reply, I completely forgot about this I got extremely busy after worlds and was not able to find any post rotation deck list but after going to a couple of cups and looking at regional results I can finally say the list will be updated on Friday. Thank you once again for reminding me of this page.

 

[Trixss]

Update is done sorry about the extremely late update today ended up getting out of hand, Hope the list helps you in someway.