Honestly, I'm just gonna be vain and say Rainbow Rare Umbreon-GX. I love Umbreon so much. <3
Discussion SUN AND MOON - What's the best card?
- Thread starter 21times
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@21times - great discussion thread. Thanks.
From my perspective, my first choice would be Professor Kukui - solely based upon the number of these Supporters I pre-ordered. This Supporter will help my main decks hit the "magic" big numbers a lot easier.
My 2nd favorite SM card has to be Tauros EX which can swoop in unexpectedly, like a Ninja (pun intended), and take prize(s). Lastly, I'm also looking forward to using Umbreon GX's Night Spear attack.
From my perspective, my first choice would be Professor Kukui - solely based upon the number of these Supporters I pre-ordered. This Supporter will help my main decks hit the "magic" big numbers a lot easier.
My 2nd favorite SM card has to be Tauros EX which can swoop in unexpectedly, like a Ninja (pun intended), and take prize(s). Lastly, I'm also looking forward to using Umbreon GX's Night Spear attack.
I think you just named your problem; you're thinking of it as simply "Colorless version of a card that didn't live up to the hype." Try looking at it for itself.
To begin with, this is a Basic Pokémon-GX; all the benefits of being a Pokémon-EX but (so far) none of the baggage. I know that is gonna change, but not until future releases.
It has a good (not great, but still good) 180 HP. Fighting Weakness is a drag, but apart from Passimian Rush (Pass'n Rush? XP) decks, I'm not sure if we'll see a lot of additional Fighting. No Resistance is typical and yeah, that Retreat Cost of [CCC] is chunky and kind of hurts... but then again this is a tank, a wall that can fight back. So being stuck up front is usually not a problem.Tauros-GX has three attacks. "Rage" is time tested and proven; while not great, it is very good as hitting Tauros-GX for between 40 and a KO results in it improving its offense. Hitting it for less than 40 (to go for a lopsided 2HKO) means Tauros-GX turns to its second attack, "Horn Attack". I think being a long term player helps me notice this a bit easier; 60-for-two is still a good, solid deal. Not something to build a deck around, but enough that something taking the time to 2HKO Tauros-GX "safely" is still being setup for a 2HKO itself. If Tauros-GX strikes first, definitely setting up for a 2HKO. "Mad Bull-GX" still costs just [CC], and if Tauros-GX has just six damage counters on it, that is enough to OHKO 180 HP (or less) targets. 70 damage on it means 210 HP or less fear it, 80 means 240 HP or less, 90 means 270 HP or less. Notice how Tauros-GX hasn't even lost half of its HP yet, but already Mad Bull-GX can OHKO anything sans protection or boosted HP scores? Yes, using your once-per-game Pokémon-GX attack, but remember that Tauros-GX doesn't demand you build your deck around it.
I haven't even gotten to what you can do with a deck that has a few common bits of support that work well with it. Double Colorless Energy (or similar Energy acceleration) allows you to ready it in one go. Fighting Fury Belt adds +10 damage and +40 HP; great in general and even better for a Rage-Style attacker! Ninja Boy allows you to surprise an opponent with it. This is basically the Pokémon-GX for pre-existing decks that don't want to pass up a new resource (GX attack) but don't want to dramatically restructure themselves. In fact, it can work with new decks as well; due to the nature of GX attacks, it is unwise to build your deck around them, anyway, so having a second Pokémon-GX to provide an alternative GX attack is not a bad thing. In fact, it seems like it may be a pretty good idea.
Tauros-GX cannot reach the heights of the more specialized Pokémon-GX, but it does not have to; this is a general usage Pokémon!
I have reached enlightenment with Tauros - I have a quad Tauros deck very similar to Omnipoke's and I've won 8 of my first 11 matches with it. I don't think it's as good as Lurantis, but I would not be surprised in there's a 1 Quad Tauros deck in the top 8 at Anaheim next weekend. And with the Ninja Boy tech in, and this card being maybe the most splashable attacker in the game right now, I'm 100% certain that it's a 1 of at least in many of the big basic decks (Turbo Darkrai, Yveltal EX, even Volcanion).
Well, early win streaks can be misleading, but I believe you are on solid ground with Tauros-GX, @21times. Of course, I could be suffering from confirmation bias. XD
Yes, Lurantis-GX has proven amazing as well, though how much of that would be true sans Vileplume (AOR) and/or the AOR Eeveelutions is unclear. The "pick one" policy of the thread doesn't exclude such support, of course, but the more moving pieces, the more likely the shifting metagame can flip these cards' fortunes. Decidueye-GX scares me in Expanded, where it resuscitates Seismitoad-EX as a deck focus again. I shouldn't just focus there, though, as Forest of Giant Plants can enable multiples and thus donks. The entire point of losing the first turn attack was to help prevent such things, but the designers essentially brought it back. >.>
Oh, and Professor Kukui is a close second to Tauros-GX... and yet it isn't. @_@ I think it illustrates why I general usage is so important to evaluating a card. He doesn't do anything particularly great; just +20 damage while drawing two cards. Not a lot of bonus damage, definitely not a lot of cards drawn. Yet, there is a niche for this that may fit many decks, enabling key OHKO's and 2HKO's, and as a Supporter it can be inserted as a single in many decks, with VS Seeker providing additional uses if needed.
Of course, I could be suffering from confirmation bias. XDYes, Lurantis-GX has proven amazing as well, though how much of that would be true sans Vileplume (AOR) and/or the AOR Eeveelutions is unclear. The "pick one" policy of the thread doesn't exclude such support, of course, but the more moving pieces, the more likely the shifting metagame can flip these cards' fortunes. Decidueye-GX scares me in Expanded, where it resuscitates Seismitoad-EX as a deck focus again. I shouldn't just focus there, though, as Forest of Giant Plants can enable multiples and thus donks. The entire point of losing the first turn attack was to help prevent such things, but the designers essentially brought it back. >.>
Oh, and Professor Kukui is a close second to Tauros-GX... and yet it isn't. @_@ I think it illustrates why I general usage is so important to evaluating a card. He doesn't do anything particularly great; just +20 damage while drawing two cards. Not a lot of bonus damage, definitely not a lot of cards drawn. Yet, there is a niche for this that may fit many decks, enabling key OHKO's and 2HKO's, and as a Supporter it can be inserted as a single in many decks, with VS Seeker providing additional uses if needed.
Hey all, now that SUM has been out a month, we can compare from our unscientific poll from earlier this month. Tabulating the votes above, I think I come up with this:
Tauros GX 5
Decidueye GX 3
Kukui 3
Umbreon GX 2
Lunala GX 1
Tsareena 1
Now that we've had time to live with these cards, I think this is pretty representative of the set. Obviously Lurantis should probably be at the same level as Decidueye, and Espeon at the same level as Umbreon. I know a lot of people like Lapras, but I've had a lot of success against it and not much success with it. Lunala and Solgaleo, two heavy favorites going into the release, have both failed to live up to expectations. Dragonair is a pokemon no one is talking about. I'm still trying to work out the kinks, but it can allow you to put a TON of energy on the board in a single turn. Oranguru has also been very popular, but I win 2 out of 3 matches I play against decks that run the banana master. Timer ball and nest ball can both be useful in the right situations, and I've enjoyed playing team skull grunt in a Tauros hammers deck. I'm pulling between 4 and 5 cards a turn on average with Lillie (more in some decks). It's definitely better than Birch. I tried Tsareena a little bit but it's not nearly as broken as I feared it might be. Still, I think there's a good mill deck out there somewhere that will incorporate Tsareena.
Those are my thoughts, let me know yours!
Tauros GX 5
Decidueye GX 3
Kukui 3
Umbreon GX 2
Lunala GX 1
Tsareena 1
Now that we've had time to live with these cards, I think this is pretty representative of the set. Obviously Lurantis should probably be at the same level as Decidueye, and Espeon at the same level as Umbreon. I know a lot of people like Lapras, but I've had a lot of success against it and not much success with it. Lunala and Solgaleo, two heavy favorites going into the release, have both failed to live up to expectations. Dragonair is a pokemon no one is talking about. I'm still trying to work out the kinks, but it can allow you to put a TON of energy on the board in a single turn. Oranguru has also been very popular, but I win 2 out of 3 matches I play against decks that run the banana master. Timer ball and nest ball can both be useful in the right situations, and I've enjoyed playing team skull grunt in a Tauros hammers deck. I'm pulling between 4 and 5 cards a turn on average with Lillie (more in some decks). It's definitely better than Birch. I tried Tsareena a little bit but it's not nearly as broken as I feared it might be. Still, I think there's a good mill deck out there somewhere that will incorporate Tsareena.
Those are my thoughts, let me know yours!
...and kick my butt with it. @_@ The short version is that this deck is all about an opponent with Pokémon in the OHKO range. For example, Yveltal-EX deck that whiffs on Fighting Fury Belt? Yes, this is a failure to have a complete setup, but it's a common thing in my experience. That, or the game going on long enough that Lapras-GX plays cleaner more than initial attacker. Hm... that actually describes a lot of these matches in my (rather limited) experience.
I agree that Tauros GX and Kukui are the best two cards from the base set, but I will give a slight edge to Tauros....let a high HP mon take some damage, use Ninja Boy, then OHKO their main attacker. Works wonders against any deck that doesn't OHKO your active pokemon. Float stone/Switch to the bench (if it survives another round) then keep it lurking in the background
Wishiwashi can help out hand size manipulation in Archie decks.
It can also be used to as a catch for the opening spot, enabling a centerpiece Pokémon to take a Bench spot and soak up Max Elixir energy. From there, you can return Wishiwashi to the hand and move in for the attack. Wishiwashi then makes prime bait for cards like Ultra Ball and Misty's Determination (which holds an immense amount of potential with Max Elixir—as it can reach deep into the deck for spare copies it without adulterating the deck's energy contents in any way).
I would like to clarify something with this suggestion. "Cowardice" states that it may not be used on a player's first turn, nor the first turn that Wishiwashi is in play. If you open with Wishiwashi and go first, it is stuck up front and your opponent has a chance to KO it for an easy Prize, whether you are going first or second. In some matches, that's not a problem in the slightest, but in many (most?), an easy Prize is an easy Prize. In the case of you going second, you'll have to Retreat or use a switching effect if you are able to prep something on your Bench.
To an extent, this holds true with using it as a placeholder/discard fodder in general; if it ever hits the field, it is stuck there for a turn. 30 HP is low enough that various attacks can score an incidental KO, even on the Bench. I have done no testing with the card, however; is my Theorymon flawed?
Understood. I wasn't aware of that. It's still however a very strong powerplay to make, as the Prize you potentially lose can enable Teammate or Ace Trainer. You can also move a second {Cowardice} Wishiwashi in after the first is Knocked Out to soak up further Max Elixir energy from your play on Teammates or Ace Trainer, then return it to the hand to much of the same effect. For the momentum you can gain from it, that one Prize you lose can actually put you a few turns against of the game.
Hey Otaku - your logic is sound - Wishiwashi is a sitting duck as the starting pokemon. I use him in my Yanmega deck, and it's not even as the starting pokemon that he's a target - bench snipers like Decidueye and Umbreon GX take easy prizes if you keep him in play. However, he really helps A LOT when it comes to hand manipulation. If you have two in play, you'll almost always be able to play normally and still be able to attack with Yanmega every turn. So it's something you have to be aware of - if you're going up against a deck that has bench sniping, you won't want to put him in play. If you're unfortunate and have to start him, hopefully you'll be able to dodge a turn 1 or turn 2 attack (if your opponent goes first), but it's highly unlikely.
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All right guys, thanks for explaining. Haven't convinced me it is really worth running, but now I better understand the reasons why you would run it. Plus, seeing is believing; if you're right, someone will pound me with the correct, Wishiwashi running deck soon enough. XD