They will start it with Klefki, then with Sableye (Sableye is a good SwaggerPlay and lasts more than Klefki), then with Azumarril with Huge Power, then with AZ's Floette, until we only have Dragons and Tyranitar.
Swagplay is self-destructive as you said but you make it sound like that's a good thing. 50% chance for it to work or for your opponent to take advantage of a free +2 to attack each turn doesn't sound too broken. Plus confusion can ware off any time or you can just switch to stall out the swaggers. Although many Pokemon can use this, they aren't exactly good defensively outside of Klefki. And Swagplay is two moves, Swagger+Foul Play.
Tokekiss on the other hand has enough bulk to pull of 2 moves and then heal itself. Getting something paralyzed by it pretty much guarantees the KO with very little chance of getting out, unlike for swagplay. And I wouldn't consider relying on hax a strategy.
I don't see how they're different, they require the same amount of skill and luck to play.
Tell me how much skill this needs.
As I said before, I'm kinda indifferent to the decision. I can see why it may get banned, I won't cry if it doesn't, and I'll shrug if it gets the boot. But don't tell me it requires skill. Paralysis is a whole different story, can be used in other cases, and the thing with it is that you'll use it for the Speed drop and expect a lost turn as an extra gift. After all, that's what most paraflinchers do. They rely more on Serene Grace than the paralysis itself.
Check that replay I've posted in the previous page and tell me how you would feel if you played against a team like that.
So are you saying that paraflinching does require skill? And it would be more reasonable is there was a limit to how many swagplayers a team could have so you don't run into people like in that replay. That's not a team that's trying to win but to make you angry.
He still had close to 1600 rating, if I recall correctly. Which means that he did win. And judging by what he said before quitting, he also believed he was good.
And yeah, paraflinch requires more skill than SwagPlay. With the exception of Skymin, which is Uber and actually plays just for the flinch, relying on its Speed rather than paralyzing, viable Serene Grace users are limited to Togekiss and Jirachi. Both of these are destroyed by the likes of Garchomp, Excadrill and Landorus, Thundurus-T, Rotom, and Jolteon etc. And since they usually invest in bulk, there's not many things they can outspeed on their own without paralysis, and they lack Prankster, meaning that they will take at least one hit, get crippled, or just scared out. You need to be careful, since paraflinchers work under specific circumstances with specific Pokemon. And of course, paraflinchers can't stop a MegaZard X's sweep at +1/2 just because of a coin flip.
SwagPlay is entirely different. Own Tempo isn't a common ability in the OU tier, which means that the only thing able to stop a Prankster is Prankster Taunt. Physical attackers can turn into deadly sweepers, yes, but they can also die to something as pathetic as Liepard. Special attackers find themselves at an even worse position, as confusion and Foul Play still hit using the boosted Attack while their Special Attack remains unchanged. And all that is done by clicking Swagger. No skill. It's not like "Garchomp can OHKO Klefki, let's switch out." Klefki dies to a lot of things, especially at +2. It knows nothing of type matchups, because whether it has checks or counters is entirely luck-dependent. It might have half the Pokemon in existence, or nothing. And you don't use any sort of intelligence for it. You don't predict, you don't try to outplay. You leave it all to luck, and may God have mercy on us.
So yeah, paraflinch requires some skill to use. SwagPlay, not at all.
Maybe, but it still is an example. And I'll say it again, I don't care whether or not SwagPlay is banned. I'm just saying the reasons behind the ban idea.
I edited the previous post while you made your last one, sorry. Check about paraflinch compared to SwagPlay.
Paraflinch was nerfed when electric types (who are generally faster) became immune to paralysis. Also the sheer lack of abusers prevents it from being completely broken (though I admit Togekisses new typing was a godsend). Furthermore, Praflinchers are geneally limited to being able to paralyze ground types (sacrificing to 60% chance with Body Slam) without being able to para Ghosts, or being able to para ghosts, but not ground (Twave). Dunsparce's Glare is not an exception worth much notice, as it's not used anywhere but the lowest tiers. Swagger works on anything and everything, just not as effectively on special attackers with low physical attack (which would lead to simple "lolblissey" remedies)
Chaos Jackal said:
Don't forget Jirachi.
The video I posted above is a perfect example of how the strategy is ridiculously luck-based. It doesn't show how it can turn against you, but it does show how it can't always work.
Jirachi is not only hard to get with Body Slam in addition to good IVs (at least in-game, since it relies on the one gen 3 WSHMKR event bonus disc then the Tutor in Emerald. Ofc it's also not breedable, unlike Togekiss) but it also now has 4 very common weaknesses (now that steel no longer resists two key weaknesses of Psychic types). Furthermore, Jirachi's physical type coverage has always been slightly sub-standard thanks to Steel's (Iron Head's) poor offensive effectiveness.
If we're going for honorable mentions, you might as well list Dunsparce too, but he's only really seen in NU settings, and is still hard to pull off unless you know what you're doing.
I never said that Jirachi is easy to use, however, the set did see use last Gen, and Jirachi is faster than Togekiss, meaning that in cases it can even risk going straight for Iron Head. Obviously, in the new Gen it's very hard to play paraflinch Jirachi, but it also happens to be the only viable Srene Grace Pokemon apart from Togekiss. Not as good, but still possible to use. It's not really an honorable mention. Dunsparce is literally for crazy players, on the other hand. And we're talking of the perfect scenario here, where you have 31 IV Jirachi with Body Slam (although there's still Thunder Wave).
Other than that, I agree with iSharingan.
And Trainerhan, it's not Smogon's approved sweepers. Whether Smogon says it or not, it doesn't change the fact that Garchomp can be a killer while Liepard can only take down things with a lucky Prankster Swagger.
But no seriously, I find the use of the moves (specifically Swagger in general, I wouldn't mind Confuse Ray going and other moves of that ilk) to be very annoying and 100% luck based in every situation that they're used in. I don't find it enjoyable to use, I don't find it enjoyable to watch in a heated battle, and I don't find anybody that uses them to "success" to be respectable people in general. I'd really like to see some kind of action being taken.
Today I was battling there in the Battle Spot, it was as always, people using Ubers, Legends, OU, but, something new, a ParaFlincher, Togekiss to be exact, it was as annoying as SwaggPlay, now I know how people feel when I use SwaggPlay, so, if they ban SwaggPlay, then, they should also ban ParaFlinching.
I never said that Jirachi is easy to use, however, the set did see use last Gen, and Jirachi is faster than Togekiss, meaning that in cases it can even risk going straight for Iron Head. Obviously, in the new Gen it's very hard to play paraflinch Jirachi, but it also happens to be the only viable Srene Grace Pokemon apart from Togekiss. Not as good, but still possible to use. It's not really an honorable mention. Dunsparce is literally for crazy players, on the other hand. And we're talking of the perfect scenario here, where you have 31 IV Jirachi with Body Slam (although there's still Thunder Wave).
Other than that, I agree with iSharingan.
And Trainerhan, it's not Smogon's approved sweepers. Whether Smogon says it or not, it doesn't change the fact that Garchomp can be a killer while Liepard can only take down things with a lucky Prankster Swagger.
I agree wholeheartedly (quote added to make it clear). Don't get me wrong; several of myfavoriteteams are gimmicks, but Swagplay takes the fun out of a gimmick beyond just beating it to death. What I find fun about honed, metagame-viable gimmick teams is that if someone tries to copy your gimmick, their imitation generally wont see anywhere the success rate your 'original' does. I like messing with my opponents as much as the next player (Ok... maybe more...), but Swagplay unquestionably kills competitive strategy as much (if not more) than the infamous Minimize-spamming Baton Pass teams of old (that is, before protect and evasion were useless against Roar/Whirlwind - though Perish Song and Clear Smog would still screw them over).
The existence of the Swagplay strategy destroys two valuable factors that contribute to the game, which are that of luck and skill. Essentially turning the opponent's game to be based off a coin flip creates an unhealthy amount of luck, the likes of which rivals that of even Garchomp and Shaymin of previous generations. In doing so, the skill required to win the game is basically nulled, which destroys a lot of integrity the game should hold. This in return removes the fun and competition of the game.
Yes, it should be banned to create a desirable metagame, but the real question is how. The problem of luck has usually been solved with a simple ban of a move (Double Team), ability (the evasion enhancing abilities, Moody), or a Pokemon. The only reasonable solution to the problem is a complex ban, which is shunned upon for creating too many questions in the banning system ("why don't we make everything broken fixable with complex bans"). Well, that and the fact it's overall an unnecessary action to take in what should be a simplistic system.
Btw, ParaFlinch doesn't single-handedly win games the way Swagplay does. It's just an annoying, effective strategy. It's not game changing or impossible to play around. It's a healthy amount of luck that can be played around or even stopped, unlike Swagplay which is unhealthy and hard to stop due to the priority. The fact it's even being mentioned in this thread is a joke.
if they can't stop it, then carry something with Safeguard ... Also, they can simply carry a Lum Berry and that's it, or a Lum Berry with a Pokémon with Harvest.
The fact you're even mentioning overcentralization as the solution to the problem is already enough to warrant a ban. That's even happening now with people actually considering Own Tempo Slowbro/king (doesn't even work, read on) and even Numel (I'm kidding but it can handle Swagplay to a degree). Not that any of this is effective as parafusion and various other factors such as Foul Play crits can come into play.
Eron said:
I think that SwaggPlay is the same as usign a Tank Umbreon with Wish, or a Suicune with Scald and Calm Mind, or a Chansey with Minimize
And how do those relate to this at all? An Umbreon is literally the softest tank in the game in terms of actually dishing out damage. CroCune was easily one of the most skillful (read as: skill) sets to use in previous generations, although the overall effectiveness is diminished with the advent of strong initial physical attackers to avoid the Scald burn and Psyshock / Secret Sword. Minimize Chansey ... not sure where you're going with a set that is a joke to competitive play.
Trainerhan1 said:
4. You sit there and kill yourself half the time, the other half the +2 attack backfires and costs you the game.
Swagplay is self-destructive as you said but you make it sound like that's a good thing. 50% chance for it to work or for your opponent to take advantage of a free +2 to attack each turn doesn't sound too broken.
Oh, that's not broken? Really? An entire match being dictated on a 50-50 chance? Okay, let's recite back to the situation last generation with Landorus-I. Beating it basically came down to Focus Blast missing at least once. Hitting two would ensure the death of a few of Landorus-I's counters, mainly Rotom-W. The chances of actually beating Landorus-I in this case was - surprise - a coin flip. Hitting heads ensures death and an instant sweep, as not too much could handle the likes of Landorus-I at +2 speed, outside of Mamoswine that should be removed prior to the sweep. Hitting tails swings the tide of the match and removes one of the opponent's main cogs in their offense, of which at the time was largely built around a Landorus-I sweep.
Speaking of which, it's not even a coin flip. The actual chances are crazy, such as Heatran losing to Klefki 9% of the time, a Pokemon it should beat 9.99999/10 times outside of HP Ground + Resist Berry gimmicks. Here's the actual chances from SanjiWatsuki on Smogon:
I did some iterated analysis on SwagPlay using a couple of Pokemon. I'm going to generalize the formula to eventually allow for arbitrary Pokemon based on usage data, but here's my initial findings. I ran 10000 simulations of Klefki vs. <Pokemon> for this data. This is a simplified analysis and doesn't perfectly model an actual battle, but is relatively close.
Assumptions are that neither side switches out, ever, and that they fight until the bitter end. PP is not taken into account.
No, Swagplay really doesn't. But that does raise a good question - what happens when skill is applied to the strategy? A skillful player can build a team built around manipulating Swagplay to force switches. Residual damage in the form of hazards can create a checkmate sort of situation, where switching to avoid the strategy will only result in self-inflicted pain.
And just to make things clear, I'm not saying that Swagplay itself requires skill in this case. I'm simply saying that the manipulation of Swagplay can develop from a skillful approach. Just like how a Garchomp user in early BW OU could use its broken aspects to lure out and defeat its common counters - Skarmory, Bronzong, and revenge killing weather starters - to setup another teammate that relies on the removal of those threats such as Excadrill.
Eron said:
In addtion to what Han said, we rely on the Confusion, if not, a simple Brave Bird kills us. Also, most of the times, it's hard to win to another Pokémon with that kind of Abilities, such as, Talonflame. Because Klefki doesn't live a lot, a simple Fire Attack and it's dead.
A well played Swagplay will have hazards up, which will shun the likes of Talonflame or Heatran from switching in. I think people are misunderstanding the most effective part of the strategy isn't the strategy itself, but rather its ability to force switches. This allows for hazards to have a full control over the way your opponent plays his switches (read as: an important part of beating Swagplay). Actually getting off the hazard removal move becomes a difficult task when you might be hitting yourself, being taunted, or getting cockblocked by Sableye. Speaking of which, Sableye is the douchebag of all Swagplay just for keeping hazards alive.
Trainerhan1 said:
Chaos Jackal said:
Physical attackers can turn into deadly sweepers, yes, but they can also die to something as pathetic as Liepard.
"smogon approved" what? I'm really getting tired of the mindset that good, useful sets in the metagame that work are only there because Smogon approved them, which is total bs. What works in the metagame is used. That's what a metagame is to its core - the most used implementations, which includes Pokemon, movesets, and strategies. Whatever doesn't work is considered "smogon disapproved" by this mindset, which has always baffled me. Gimmicks and "creative movesets" only work in fixed situations at fixed times during fixed stretches, which is why there is little room for them in the metagame. The metagame is a player-based aspect determined by what the majority uses, not what "the oh great King Smogon the Terrible has forced on us". Even the banning process is owned by the players and the majority.
It also needs to be put out there what separates the usual gimmick from Swagplay. A gimmick will have maybe one, two chances to really win a game due to the "surprise" factor. After that the flaws start to show and it becomes playable around due to basic understanding. Their overall impact on the metagame thus disappears and becomes nothing. Swagplay, originally a gimmick, is able to stay around because the strategy cannot be played around as easy. Playing it multiple time doesn't ensure you suddenly can beat it the times after. The result is that Swagplay becomes a part of the metagame due to the spread of usage and impact. This certainly wouldn't be the first time a looked over "gimmick" slowly became huge for a longer time than expected (see: Gastrodon, Alakazam last gen, although neither of those were as bad as Swagplay).
I'm not gonna like TDL's post again, 'cos he'll think he's important.
To put all the things he said in a nutshell: SwagPlay might have equal chances to backfire as winning. But that just beats the purpose of competitive. It's different than running Hydro Pump over Surf. That's high risk, high return. What SwagPlay does is turn a strategy game to a luck game. I know TDL plays chess, and I play too, so I'm gonna use a comparison from there: It's like playing chess with dice. Takes out the whole point of the thing. What's the purpose of preparing, calculating and countering when it's all rendered useless?
