TDK (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX / Kyurem)

RE: Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

You guys are forgeting about one thing, Genesect can use G-Booster and discard one DCE for the attack cost, so they can just attach one energy (Plasma) and KO one Deoxys even using Shadow Triad to get the Ace Spec.
 
RE: Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

Not if you OHKO the Genesect, which isn't all that hard with Kyurem+Bangle+3 Deoxys, or via Fozen City damage.
 
RE: Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

...wow, forgot Genesect EX was Team Plasma. My bad.
 
RE: Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

Currently teching a 1-of Heatran EX in this... It completely wrecks VirGen if you get it out. If you expect to see a lot of VirGen I suggest you throw it in.
 
RE: Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

^
This.
I think Heatran would work well in Absol-based variants of this deck, given that those decks already run Blend GRPD and can get Heatran energized quickly.
 
RE: Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

I don't like Heatran. To get him working, you need FCC on him and three Deoxys on the bench. That will take 2 turns unless you save up your Plasma energy and Colress Machines, which definitely isn't worth it. Not to mention that if you even try to get it out, your opponent immediately Catchers it up and starts swinging.

I'd much rather rely on Kyurem + WWC + Silver Bangle + 2 Deoxys. It sounds like more, but it's stuff you should already have out anyways. You don't give up 2 prizes when it's KO'd, you run more than one so Catcher is less of an issue, you'll run into the necessary energy more often, and odds are you'll set one up pretty early. Just run a solid Kyurem/Bangle/Energy line and you're good.
 
Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

Scizorliscious said:
I don't like Heatran. To get him working, you need FCC on him and three Deoxys on the bench. That will take 2 turns unless you save up your Plasma energy and Colress Machines, which definitely isn't worth it. Not to mention that if you even try to get it out, your opponent immediately Catchers it up and starts swinging.

I'd much rather rely on Kyurem + WWC + Silver Bangle + 2 Deoxys. It sounds like more, but it's stuff you should already have out anyways. You don't give up 2 prizes when it's KO'd, you run more than one so Catcher is less of an issue, you'll run into the necessary energy more often, and odds are you'll set one up pretty early. Just run a solid Kyurem/Bangle/Energy line and you're good.
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Not at all... Heatran 1-Shots everything in VirGen. You can also use Raiden Knuckle to power him up late game. A 1-of Heatran and 4 Prism demolishes VirGen. It would actually take about the same amount of turns to setup Kyurem and Heatran.
 
RE: Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

The difference is that Heatran is basically useless in other matchups. I'm not saying it's bad against VirGen, I just don't see why it's necessary or better than just using Kyurem.
 
Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

Scizorliscious said:
The difference is that Heatran is basically useless in other matchups. I'm not saying it's bad against VirGen, I just don't see why it's necessary or better than just using Kyurem.
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No but of you run it and get it out you own VirGen. I'm not saying its an auto win but its pretty close. A 1 if card that gives you a very positive matchup against a tier 1 deck? Yes please!

It's the same logic for running Frozen City (which is actually a less effective counter). It's a 1-of card that helps you win a matchup.
 
RE: Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

camoclone said:
Scizorliscious said:
The difference is that Heatran is basically useless in other matchups. I'm not saying it's bad against VirGen, I just don't see why it's necessary or better than just using Kyurem.
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No but of you run it and get it out you own VirGen. I'm not saying its an auto win but its pretty close. A 1 if card that gives you a very positive matchup against a tier 1 deck? Yes please!

It's the same logic for running Frozen City (which is actually a less effective counter). It's a 1-of card that helps you win a matchup.
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Frozen City is cute, but it's not that good against Blastoise. Running a single Heatran doesn't even increase your already favorable matchup that much. It's not flawless, and it's useless against every other deck. You already have a very positive matchup and Heatran isn't going to do that much. To power it up in one turn, you need prism, two colress machines, Heatran, and 3 deoxys EX. If you don't get it out in one turn, it gets Catcher'd and dies. Even if you do, they simply G-Booster it with the other Genesect. It's just unnecessary, and the risk is so much greater than the reward.
 
RE: Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

Slowbro said:
camoclone said:
No but of you run it and get it out you own VirGen. I'm not saying its an auto win but its pretty close. A 1 if card that gives you a very positive matchup against a tier 1 deck? Yes please!

It's the same logic for running Frozen City (which is actually a less effective counter). It's a 1-of card that helps you win a matchup.
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Frozen City is cute, but it's not that good against Blastoise.
If they run 3 beach then I admit it doesn't do much however 1 or no beach Blastoise decks get dominated by it Running a single Heatran doesn't even increase your already favorable matchup that much .
Genesect/Virizion is 50-50 right now... Heatran does increase your matchup. You literally 1-shot everything they have with an attack which can be powered up in 1 turn. You could even scramble switch to the Heatran if needed. Sure Kyurem can 1-shot but it takes a lot more resourses then Heatran. It's not flawless, and it's useless against every other deck.Your right it's not flawless by far however it works a lot of the time. It's a 1-of tech... Will it really ruin how well you do against other decks? No! You already have a very positive matchup and Heatran isn't going to do that much.
Heatran does a lot and it's not already a positive matchup To power it up in one turn, you need prism, two colress machines, Heatran, and 3 deoxys EX.
Which is a lot less then then a Kyurem needs to 1-hit KO...
If you don't get it out in one turn, it gets Catcher'd and dies. Even if you do, they simply G-Booster it with the other Genesect. It's just unnecessary, and the risk is so much greater than the reward.
Not necessarily... This is the problem with theorymon. Sometimes it seems like things happen in theory that don't in practice. Have you actually tested the matchup? Once you scrapper the G-Booster the chances of what you just said happening are even more small
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RE: Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

I'd say that unless the VG is teching for you with something like Drifblim, it probably is positive for you anyway. You probably have a slightly positive matchup with 'Stoise anyway since you're faster and if they're running 0-1 Beach, then that's even more true. Also, the only thing Kyurem requires over Heatran is a Bangle, but it is a) a non-EX that isn't OHKOed by Megalo Cannon unless they run Deoxys, meaning it prize trades really well, and b) can use Blend LMFW instead of Prisms, making it a lot more consistent.
 
RE: Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

And why risk the consistency in other matchups on a card that barely helps for one that you should win most of the time anyways?

I'm not saying heatran absolutely does not work. All it requires less is a Bangle, though it has more specific energy requirements for the deck it's in, to get it working, but not only is that one less card you can run otherwise, but it's worth 2 prizes, decreases the chance of a kyurem start, and if it fails, it fails hard.
 
RE: Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

camoclone said:
Slowbro said:
Frozen City is cute, but it's not that good against Blastoise.
If they run 3 beach then I admit it doesn't do much however 1 or no beach Blastoise decks get dominated by it Running a single Heatran doesn't even increase your already favorable matchup that much .
Genesect/Virizion is 50-50 right now... Heatran does increase your matchup. You literally 1-shot everything they have with an attack which can be powered up in 1 turn. You could even scramble switch to the Heatran if needed. Sure Kyurem can 1-shot but it takes a lot more resourses then Heatran. It's not flawless, and it's useless against every other deck.Your right it's not flawless by far however it works a lot of the time. It's a 1-of tech... Will it really ruin how well you do against other decks? No! You already have a very positive matchup and Heatran isn't going to do that much.
Heatran does a lot and it's not already a positive matchup To power it up in one turn, you need prism, two colress machines, Heatran, and 3 deoxys EX.
Which is a lot less then then a Kyurem needs to 1-hit KO...
If you don't get it out in one turn, it gets Catcher'd and dies. Even if you do, they simply G-Booster it with the other Genesect. It's just unnecessary, and the risk is so much greater than the reward.
Not necessarily... This is the problem with theorymon. Sometimes it seems like things happen in theory that don't in practice. Have you actually tested the matchup? Once you scrapper the G-Booster the chances of what you just said happening are even more small
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I'm honestly not going to waste my time with this argument. I'd actually you rather play Heatran, and please go to the Battle Roads I do using Heatran. Thanks! :)
 
RE: Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

Slowbro said:
camoclone said:
Replies in bold...
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I'm honestly not going to waste my time with this argument. I'd actually you rather play Heatran, and please go to the Battle Roads I do using Heatran. Thanks! :)
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^Lol

Serious though, heatran is bad. It's been said before but I'll say it again, quite simply if you tech in a card to make a good matchup better you're only shooting yourself in the foot for other matchups.
 
RE: Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

You don't have to PLAY it down other then the VirGen matchup.
 
RE: Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

Slowbro said:
camoclone said:
Replies in bold...
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I'm honestly not going to waste my time with this argument. I'd actually you rather play Heatran, and please go to the Battle Roads I do using Heatran. Thanks! :)
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Calm down. Next post like this that doesn't add to the discussion gets a warning. This is a discussion forum, there is literally no reason to get mad or act like this if someone disagrees with you, no matter how wrong you think they are.


As much as I would love to use Heatran, it just isn't worth it in my book. The energy cost isn't that low, VG has outs to OHKO Heatran, the matchup really isn't that bad anyway, and as has been said, teching for specific matchups is generally a bad idea unless you have a deck with lots of extra space, which by no means does Plasma have.
 
RE: Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

I've said it before: 1 card does not hurt consistency or other matchups as much as you are acting like it is. Also how in the world is VirGen a positive matchup? It's 50-50 and easily changed to 65-35 by one card. Plasma has wiggle room for versatility too. It's list isn't too tight to tech one card.
 
RE: Plasma (Thundurus EX / Deoxys EX with attackers and techs)

The idea of 'wiggle room' isn't the way to think about it. Make it as consistent as possible. Add searchpower. Add Switch/Float Stone. Then, if you have problems with matchups, you can tech. If you have a really, really solid Plasma/TDK list, you should already have at least 60/40 if not 65/35 on VirGen. Heatran does not help that much, and I would so much rather have an extra Frozen City/Silver Mirror/Supporter in there as either consistency or a harder counter.
 
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