Discussion The Future of GXs

[Gruffling]

GXs seem to be here to stay, the new ultra rares. I say seem to because the TCG has thrown away three mechanics which were all in standard together, moment of silence for Ancient Traits, BREAKs and dual types. And as Otaku reminded me Megas too, a TCG mechanic that didn't finish including all of its game counterparts. But it would appear GX should be in for a healthy run inheriting the EX role but with an evolutionary twist.

So far GXs have mixed legendaries, basics and stages 1 and 2 so it would seem from the outset that anything is fair game for a GX card, EXs did have favourites. But if we assume GX is at least the Sun & Moon era's ultra rare, maybe it'll continue past like EXs did but who knows, what Pokemon will the mechanic include?

There's yet to be an Alolan form with a GX, maybe the card name would be a bit long, but personally a Dragon type Alolan Exeggutor-GX would make me very happy. I would think that some of the more likely candidates are Totem and Ride Pokemon, Gumshoos and Lurantis, Lapras and Tauros respectively have already seen this treatment. A school form Wishiwashi-GX would be pretty badass. With Solgaleo, Lunala and in the next set the tapu, the other legendaries (ultra beasts and mythicals) seem to make sense too. Special Pokemon like Silvally would be a good choice, its GX attack can be multi attack and have a type changing mechanic possibly based on held energy. Zygarde has a role in the game so maybe a GX for it too, though the end of XY did pump out the Zygarde love so maybe wait for a bit.

One option that's a bit of a stretch is version exclusives. The two Lycanroc and Drampa are receiving the treatment so a Turtonator-GX would not be surprising. and finally, the main Pokemon of the captains, Kahunas and Elite 4. By main I mean the Z Ring holders, in some cases the only Gen 7 Pokemon they actually have. Snorlax's signature Z Move is a GX attack so Alolan Raichu and Mew could see that treatment though I doubt Pikachu or Eevee would receive a GX so that one is maybe less likely.

Of course all this would imply some kind of logic to determining GX allocation and with how many Pokemon get neglected in the TCG, logic is probably not that reliable.

(This lovely banner was created by Weavile GX)

 

[Otaku]

I would think, as someone who has been around for most of the TCG history first hand, I can weigh in on this with some authority. Which means I'll have to be really careful not to say something really stupid and ruin it all. XP

GXs seem to be here to stay, the new ultra rares. I say seem to because the TCG has thrown away three mechanics which were all in standard together, moment of silence for Ancient Traits, BREAKs and dual types. But it would appear GX should be in for a healthy run inheriting the EX role but with an evolutionary twist.

Introducing new game mechanics and then quickly discarding them is, regrettably, a longstanding tradition of many TCGs, Pokémon included. The mixed blessing is that TPC will often recycle such things. I can give examples, but I already have deleted what I had because it was getting too long and off-topic. ^^' Pokémon-GX do seem poised to inherit the mantle of Pokémon-EX, which is another sign that Mega Evolutions should be added to your list of abandoned mechanics.

Evolving isn't much of a twist, however. Remember that Pokémon-EX were basically Pokémon-ex with some minor tweaks; the barely different name forcing them to be mechanically distinct when older cards interacted with newer ones, and Pokémon-EX at first always being Basic Pokémon (Basic Legendary Pokémon at that), then Basics or Megas. Pokémon-GX add a once-per-game attack, the latest video game gimmick, but otherwise are just the original Pokémon-ex with a new name and modern power levels.

Otherwise what you propose is somewhat likely; I haven't played the video games in a while but are Z-Moves a universal thing? If so, then everything is fair game. Long card names are nothing new to the TCG; someone might realize it is worth avoiding, but odds are we'll just get a card using a smaller font for its name. =P Logic can fail with predicting the plans for Pokémon because of incomplete data and human error; a lot of things that seem to make no sense from a gameplay standpoint (like adding a new gimmick for one expansion then dropping it) actually do make some sense from a business standpoint (XY is slowing down, gotta fire up people to buy before SM!).

 

[Frosstoise]

Through the XY sets, while EXes are pretty standard, the effects that they bring with them certainly see a good deal of change. Ancient Traits, Spirit Links, then the Break era, with one set containing dual types. There's also the Team Flare Hyper Gear that existed for only one set with it's play on your opponent mechanic. All in all, I expect we'll see a good deal of variety in mechanics through the SM era (Ultra Beasts, Hyper Training, countless new GX cards themselves, gonna be a wild ride!)

 

[Gruffling]

Pokémon-GX do seem poised to inherit the mantle of Pokémon-EX, which is another sign that Mega Evolutions should be added to your list of abandoned mechanics.
...
Otherwise what you propose is somewhat likely; I haven't played the video games in a while but are Z-Moves a universal thing?

Indeed I forgot about Megas, an unfinished mechanic on top of that.

Z_Moves are universal however only a small number of Pokemon have unique ones, all others are accessible if a Pokemon holding the Z Crystal has a move of the corresponding type. Eg Primarina with Energy Ball can use the Bloom Doom Z-Move but this doesn't translate well to the TCG.

 

[TheGuardian118]

Actually the Z moves could easily be tool cards. Zygarde EX has a tool that gives him an extra attack. (Power Memory or something like that. Lots of damage, but discard all energy) You could make the tools as specific as they have to be on certain GX Pokémon, or as vague as they have to be on an Electric type. It would make Pokémon that can hold two tools much more interesting.

 

[Gruffling]

Actually the Z moves could easily be tool cards. Zygarde EX has a tool that gives him an extra attack. (Power Memory or something like that. Lots of damage, but discard all energy) You could make the tools as specific as they have to be on certain GX Pokémon, or as vague as they have to be on an Electric type. It would make Pokémon that can hold two tools much more interesting.

That's a pretty cool idea have like Electrium-Z as a card, maybe it could require all lightning energy and do lightning damage regardless of the type it's attached to, if they wanted to full on mirror the game. Actually they could almost function like a new type of ACE-SPEC.

 

[Otaku]

Actually the Z moves could easily be tool cards. Zygarde EX has a tool that gives him an extra attack. (Power Memory or something like that. Lots of damage, but discard all energy) You could make the tools as specific as they have to be on certain GX Pokémon, or as vague as they have to be on an Electric type. It would make Pokémon that can hold two tools much more interesting.

TPC could have done that, but Snorlax-GX shows they want Pokémon-GX to handle the Z-Move mechanic. Personally, I would rather they ignored it because, like so many things, it doesn't translate well to the TCG, due both to inherent differences between trading card games in general and video games in general, as well as specific differences between the Pokémon TCG and Pokémon video games.

There is an entire abandoned mechanic for the Pokémon TCG, the Technical Machine, whereby an Item (the Technical Machine) grants the Pokémon to which it is attached an extra move. I don't think it has been used since prior to the HS-era expansions. We've seen multiple Pokémon Tools now grant attacks, though, as you describe.

Actually they could almost function like a new type of ACE-SPEC.

I hope not; Ace Spec cards were not good for game balance. Good as another rare card for collectors to enjoy tracking down, or for players to enjoy as a lucky booster pack pull? Sure. It was just another expensive card for the competitive player to have to track down and obtain. While it certainly can reward skill, the nature of the mechanic is more about rewarding luck, and when someone does apply skill, it usually means finding a way to sidestep the intention of the one-per-deck restriction and spam the thing. >.>

 

[Gruffling]

I hope not; Ace Spec cards were not good for game balance. Good as another rare card for collectors to enjoy tracking down, or for players to enjoy as a lucky booster pack pull? Sure. It was just another expensive card for the competitive player to have to track down and obtain. While it certainly can reward skill, the nature of the mechanic is more about rewarding luck, and when someone does apply skill, it usually means finding a way to sidestep the intention of the one-per-deck restriction and spam the thing. >.>

I didn't mean literally but more that they would be a one time use kind of thing. A spiritual successor. With Pulverising Pancake a GX attack, having the other Z Moves as attacking trainers would make more sense if Gigavolt Havok, Bloom Doom et al were also GX attacks. How useful that would be in competitive play is a bit questionable though.

 

[Gruffling]

So Turtonator-GX happened so I don't feel as silly.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

@Otaku I didn't mind Ace Spec cards. I found them to be a Supporter card, just in the form of an Item that can be used one of in a deck but some of them were too good. I'd love to hear more on this from you though. I felt a card like Gold Potion and Scoop Up Cyclone feel into that sweet spot of balance. As for Mega Evolution, I don't know why they want to do away with this? They haven't made any Mega Evolution Pokemon yet and they may be trying to find a new way to implement them since they have been underwhelming.

I just don't know why they abandoned most of the mechanics though. Ancient Traits should have lived on through Mega Evolved Pokemon but I felt they have been unbalanced since there isn't any way to interact with them, considering there is a trait that can make a Pokemon immune to Trainer cards. I just wish they would keep things around just for the sake of balance for future sets.

 

[Gruffling]

Dual type Ancient Trait cards could have been interesting or at least aesthetically pleasing.

 

[Otaku]

I am pressed for time, so please forgive this for being very "train of thought" and lengthy. Yes, it actually takes me more time to seemingly write less, because I actually start out writing more and then have to do my best to rewrite it taking less space. XP

I found them to be a Supporter card, just in the form of an Item that can be used one of in a deck but some of them were too good.

Ace Spec cards miss the point of Supporters. A Supporter is a more potent Trainer that you may only use one of per turn. Thus, you can run more of them but just have to deal with more dead [other Supporter] cards in hand post-Supporter usage. You may run few of them, so that you rarely have to worry about dead cards in your post-Supporter usage hand.

The Ace Spec is an absolute limit of one per deck. Now, if your Ace Spec card was set aside from the rest of your deck during set up, so that you could use it whenever you wished, okay. Now it is a limited resource tool again. It would further break some of the examples, but it works. XD This limit is supposed to justify a much stronger effect, but there is an issue with that:

• It is a "lucky draw", because either you get it at the right time (when you need it) or you don't. Showing up early can be a bad thing if your Ace Spec is more of a late game play; you may be forced to discard it for another card effect, or have it shuffled away again (which is less bad but still).
• Your deck is not blindly relying upon luck. Okay, so now the card that is supposed to be balanced because it is a lucky draw, is instead "too good" because you can now easily search it out (Skyla) or recycle it (Junk Hunt).

Creating another kind of resource restriction is fine. Doing it in a way that simulates the Yu-Gi-Oh Forbidden and Limited List* is not. I would prefer most of the Ace Spec cards just have a more meaningful cost. They were sort of like artificial TecH, when real TecH was working just fine, and trying to force that formula was missing the point and doomed to failure. I would rather they figured out how to properly balance out the various effects seen on the Ace Spec cards, and then release them as just regular Items. Computer Search and Dowsing Machine are pretty potent, so I am uncertain if that could be a possibility. I am also open to the idea of the mechanic reviving, but with the understanding that one could run four of the Not!Ace Spec of the their choice with the cards designed with this new power balance in mind.

*Or similar restrictions on card counts found in other games.[/B]

As for Mega Evolution, I don't know why they want to do away with this? They haven't made any Mega Evolution Pokemon yet and they may be trying to find a new way to implement them since they have been underwhelming.

I am one of the people who finds the entire concept of Mega Evolution, for the Pokémon franchise, silly. XP Not the good kind of "silly", either, but the "If I wanted this I would be playing Digimon." kind of silly. As a TCG mechanic, remember I want my Pokémon-EX set aside to represent Legendary and pseudo-legendary Pokémon that are so strong in the video games that to do them justice usually requires they be worth an extra Prize. Now I do have a question: are there new Mega Evolutions in Sun & Moon (the video game?). I haven't played and was under the impression either there weren't, or there were but the-powers-that-be were keeping it out of the spotlight, almost like they were wanting us to focus exclusively on Z-Moves. Z-Moves clash with Mega Evolutions as both require a specific held Item, right? Anyway, I didn't care for how they implemented it in the TCG because it moved the game further away from the direction I think it ought to go, and really would have preferred Mega Evolutions function more like BREAK Evolutions, if they had to be present. too late now, though, so I'll settle for them releasing the "missing" Spirit Link cards.

I just don't know why they abandoned most of the mechanics though. Ancient Traits should have lived on through Mega Evolved Pokemon but I felt they have been unbalanced since there isn't any way to interact with them, considering there is a trait that can make a Pokemon immune to Trainer cards. I just wish they would keep things around just for the sake of balance for future sets.

Are Ancient Traits a thing in the video games? They seemed like a really bad idea to me; I don't mean that some of them haven't been great, I just mean it was R&D trying to fix the mess they'd made with Abilities. I kind of like BREAK Evolutions, but frankly wish that was how the highest Stage of Evolution was handled in general; just another way to make sure lower Stages can matter. Granted, TPC would probably still give us awful lower Stages so that having access to their Abilities and attacks would be pointless. XD Dual Types should really be a general mechanic by now if the designers are going to be so beholden to the video games.

 

[Gruffling]

Now I do have a question: are there new Mega Evolutions in Sun & Moon (the video game?).
Are Ancient Traits a thing in the video games?

No and no.

 

[Purrloin]

I think Ancient Traits were the first attempt at getting away from the Basics-heavy format that started in early-to-mid-BW. The problem, of course, was that the majority of AT Pokemon were just not playable or were outclassed by existing EXs; and then they gave ATs to various Megas, which made it even more obvious how comparatively underwhelming most non-Mega AT Pokemon were.

So then they tried BREAKs, and again, most were underwhelming or just an outright pain to use (Stage 2's were hard enough to get out, much less Stage 3's).

The third attempt at giving Stages a fighting chance is GX -- and by no coincidence, they are mechanically very similar to ex, which had already proven to be a playable alternative to Basics. I think GX are here to stay throughout the entirety of the SM era because of this. Yet I don't think the impact will be as evident to begin with, since EX are still in Standard (and they keep reprinting more of them; hopefully only for Expanded from here on out); but once all or most EXs get rotated I think we'll see again just how much better the ex mechanic was.

Then again, if they print more potentially-broken Basic GX like Tapu-Lele, we might end up back where we started. But I'm hoping that's just going to be a one-off... hoping.

Also I agree with @Gruffling that Z-Crystals in the form of Tools would have been cool, a la G Booster, with a once-per-game or one-per-deck rule. But personally I like GX attacks quite a lot too.

 

[Gruffling]

I suspect the Z-Ring will eventually become a card and have something to do with GX attacks, but GXs are the TCG's equivalent of Z-Moves and it's got more creative freedom.

I wonder what GX actually means though, the capitalisation of it and EX suggests an acronym and due to the small lettering I always pronounced ex as "x"

 

[Nyan]

I'd personally love if they made it so that EXs were made along with GXs in upcoming sets. I mean, we are getting that Mega Camerupt and Sharpedo thing...

 

[Gruffling]

I mean, we are getting that Mega Camerupt and Sharpedo thing...

That's a point and these upcoming full arts with Lucario Spirit Link will be almost all unplayable in standard since the base form will go in the next rotation whether they're XY or SM promos.

 

[Otaku]

@Purrloin

I think you misread the situation.

Ancient Traits were on Basic Pokémon as well, so how would they be to help Evolutions? Ancient Traits usually act like Abilities, except they are mechanically distinct as far as the game goes. That is why I said they were an attempt at "fixing" the mess we have with Abilities. If you still disagree... it ain't like I've got an internal memo from TPCi to prove my theory.

What I do have to stress is that Evolutions? They get used. A lot. Maybe some Evolutions you like do not see competitive play but guess what? Same goes for a lot of Basic Pokémon. I am not claiming that Basic Pokémon are anything but the best Stage, but Pokémon-GX don't solve that problem. During the EX-series of sets (EX: Ruby & Sapphire through EX: Power Keepers), they tried to balance the Stages by giving better HP, sometimes even damage output, the higher a Stage a Pokémon was. First, this resulted in Basics being pretty bad. Eventually, we just got to what we have now, only with a prior generation of cards: the stuff that was too powerful for its own good made up the competitive metagame, regardless of its Stage, and the rest was filler. =/

If you disagree, so be it, but this is my first-hand experience. Based on the occasional Evolution that does well with a useful Evolving Basic and/or Stage 1, I think that is the way to go. Basics have two major advantages; speed and card count. Well, speed really requires they stop making Basics that are so fast. The other, though, just requires Evolving Basic and Stage 1 cards be so good that the difference between a Stage 2 and a Basic is that with the Stage 2, you combo with the lower Stages, while with the Basic you just have room for two cards of your choice.

Now if you still disgaree... okay. Sorry it took this long for me to be clear. >_<

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

@Otaku I do agree with you on Ace Specs, I just couldn't find the right words to describe it. As for Mega Evolution, I really enjoy Mega Pidgeot so it may be a bias things but I do feel they have a place, just lore wise. A Pokemon's primal form or something, like Pidgeot once looked like a Mega Pidgeot but evolved into what it is now. This is why I want the Ancient Traits to stick around on them but just in general, I feel they do have a place in Pokemon since other Pokemon like Shaymin, which predated Mega Evolution could change their forms.

 

[Purrloin]

Ancient Traits were on Basic Pokémon as well, so how would they be to help Evolutions? Ancient Traits usually act like Abilities, except they are mechanically distinct as far as the game goes. That is why I said they were an attempt at "fixing" the mess we have with Abilities. If you still disagree... it ain't like I've got an internal memo from TPCi to prove my theory.

My post wasn't a direct response to any of your posts, but I'll explain my reasoning.

Of all the AT Pokemon, only 5 are non-evolving (three of which were Promos). Entei and Articuno are the only Basic AT non-evolving Pokemon that appeared in a set, so I don't think the existence of some non-evolving ATs discredits the help they provided to evolutions. One of the issues of running a Stage line in a Basics-heavy format is that the underlings serve mostly as cannon fodder on the Bench (or in the Active, if unlucky) until they can evolve; so, giving bonus abilities to them helped out the evolution line as a whole, either by giving them some extra protection against effects in the meantime, attack or healing bonuses, or, most significantly, the chance to evolve within the same turn.

The problem is that there simply wasn't enough good AT cards to use against the big Basics that, by and large, were practically unaffected by the presence of AT abilities. The mechanic really should have continued so it had a chance to live up to its potential.

What I do have to stress is that Evolutions? They get used. A lot. Maybe some Evolutions you like do not see competitive play but guess what? Same goes for a lot of Basic Pokémon. I am not claiming that Basic Pokémon are anything but the best Stage, but Pokémon-GX don't solve that problem. During the EX-series of sets (EX: Ruby & Sapphire through EX: Power Keepers), they tried to balance the Stages by giving better HP, sometimes even damage output, the higher a Stage a Pokémon was. First, this resulted in Basics being pretty bad. Eventually, we just got to what we have now, only with a prior generation of cards: the stuff that was too powerful for its own good made up the competitive metagame, regardless of its Stage, and the rest was filler. =/

I didn't say Evolutions don't get used nor that I'm looking for Pokemon I like to be used. I said we had a Basics-heavy era that we're maybe starting to squeak out of now. There's a pretty uneven ratio between the number of decks that have Basics as primary attackers and the number of decks with Stages as primary attackers. (And I don't really consider Megas to be "Stages" like the others.)

Ideally they would have given GX a similar damage output and HP as EX, while keeping the evolution requirements for Stages and nerfing non-evolving GX a tad. But with straight-Basic EX remaining in the format for a couple more years (or more, if they reprint them as SM promos), they probably figured they couldn't do that without making Stages comparatively difficult to use again.

Eventually, when EX aren't around, people will have to choose between running GX Stages or GX Basics. The latter, so far, has had EX-level HP, so perhaps eventually their ease of use won't be as tempting if the Stages can out-perform them. (But like I said, Tapu Lele might be indicating that strong, easy-to-use Basic URs will be around for a long time.)

Now if you still disgaree... okay. Sorry it took this long for me to be clear. >_<

Why apologize? Like I said above, I wasn't even responding to you. (I would've tagged you if I was.) I am optimistic that GX will improve the ratio between primary-Basic-attacker decks and primary-Stage-attacker decks, not just at the highest levels of competitive play but across the game in general. The ex-era was my favorite era to play competitively, so GX have been a little ray of sunshine at the tail-end of what ended up being my least favorite era.