The ORAS OU Metagame Discussion Thread

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Chaos Jackal said:
I wouldn't say it needs to go myself. Excellent coverage, only one "true" counter; but we've been through this a million times before. Landorus suffers from 4MSS, which may make it unpredictable, but it also makes it possible to wall depending on what it lacks. Its Speed is good, but lacking compared to many of the other monsters roaming in OU, allowing it to be easily checked by a variety of commonly used attackers. Don't get me wrong. This thing is amazing. But broken? Even Mega Metagross, which is the closest thing to a real life tank in OU managed to stay. I don't think it needs to be banned.

That being said, if it ends up getting banned, I don't see the metagame changing drastically. Landorus-I doesn't keep that many things in check, it's not like Aegislash which severely limited many otherwise perfectly good mons. The hole Landorus will leave behind will not be exactly gaping. Its ban will not signify any big changes in the metagame.
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4MSS is indeed a problem which lets the opponent the option to scout for Landorus's set. The problem is the fact that Landorus-I 2HKO almost the entire metagame and can set up CM or RP while the opponent is trying to figure out what set it is. Greninja had the same problem but it could not set up on switches. And it still got banned. Not that I want to compare Greninja to Landorus-I but just to show how the 4MSS can sometimes help Landorus-I rather than hurting it.

With Landorus-I gone, Do you think it would affect team building? I mean this thing is designed to break both offense and defensive teams depends on its set. This might be just me but I thing he has part of the fact Balance teams are getting more popular these days.
 
Chaos Jackal said:
I wouldn't say it needs to go myself. Excellent coverage, only one "true" counter; but we've been through this a million times before. Landorus suffers from 4MSS, which may make it unpredictable, but it also makes it possible to wall depending on what it lacks. Its Speed is good, but lacking compared to many of the other monsters roaming in OU, allowing it to be easily checked by a variety of commonly used attackers. Don't get me wrong. This thing is amazing. But broken? Even Mega Metagross, which is the closest thing to a real life tank in OU managed to stay. I don't think it needs to be banned.

That being said, if it ends up getting banned, I don't see the metagame changing drastically. Landorus-I doesn't keep that many things in check, it's not like Aegislash which severely limited many otherwise perfectly good mons. The hole Landorus will leave behind will not be exactly gaping. Its ban will not signify any big changes in the metagame.
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No. I'm glad that thing is gone. The fact that M-Latias was the only real counter to it, while even then being threatened by Knock Off, or just take two hits for the KO from CM Landorus is retardiculous. It kills Stall and Balance, and even with 4MSS it's still bad enough that you:
A.) Still have to scout it, which means it can still get a free boost in
B.) Have to scout it, so you still have to be very freaking careful with it, which means you can lose crucial Pokemon
C.) If you successfully scout it only to have made a misplay beforehand, or even after you learn of the set, resulting in the KO of your only counter, you are screwed.

Even with revenge killers, you still have to be careful. Unless you have some dedicated Pokemon for taking out Lando-i, you risk losing at least a couple Pokemon. Also with 4MSS you usually pick a certain move combination because you already have Pokemon that can take out the types you can't hit or 2HKO.

If you have to play a dangerous guessing game to counter something, or risk getting sweeped, that sounds pretty broken.
 
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Have you noticed about how Weavile is getting more attention lately? This Pokemon is actually a very good revenge killer atm.
Being able to OHKO Landorus-I with priority (So even after RP it cannot stand a chance ) plus it outruns and OHKO Thundurus with Icicle Crash making him a fine pick to destroy this core.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 348-421 (109 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 455-538 (152.1 - 179.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Not sure if this is the main reason why I see people using it more but if it is then that is a Pokemon who is going to be really upset if Landorus-I will get banned.
 
Yeah I've seen Weavile in a couple matches, and on top of that a lot of people are using SD BP Celebi for some reason. Weavile is pretty good, has good speed and definitely decent power to boot
 
Indeed. Especially its speed 125 is amazing. It has a strong competition with Bisharp though for the "Lati@s check slot" since Bisharp also scares them from using Defog with its amazing ability. On top of that without Landorus-I around Bisharp would be even more viable choice.
But still, Weavile handles other things much better than Bisharp such as Gliscor and Landorus-T..
 
Equinox said:
Yeah I've seen Weavile in a couple matches, and on top of that a lot of people are using SD BP Celebi for some reason. Weavile is pretty good, has good speed and definitely decent power to boot
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I love putting NP / SD Baton Pass Celebi on my HO teams due to its ability to eat status, check threats like Keldeo, and provide momentum and power to sweepers. It's such a great glue Pokemon for offensive teams.

My concern with facing Weavile is its fast Pursuit and Knock Off. I've noticed during my time with Baton Pass Celebi just how bad that can be to go against. BP Celebi is great against Scizor and Bisharp due to outspeeding. With Weavile, I'm forced to hard switch and lose all my boosts.
 
PG24 said:
I love putting NP / SD Baton Pass Celebi on my HO teams due to its ability to eat status, check threats like Keldeo, and provide momentum and power to sweepers. It's such a great glue Pokemon for offensive teams.

My concern with facing Weavile is its fast Pursuit and Knock Off. I've noticed during my time with Baton Pass Celebi just how bad that can be to go against. BP Celebi is great against Scizor and Bisharp due to outspeeding. With Weavile, I'm forced to hard switch and lose all my boosts.
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I'm kinda thinking about making a team with both, that speed and offense already is really good, and poor Heatran can't take a Dark hit now
 
Equinox said:
I'm kinda thinking about making a team with both, that speed and offense already is really good, and poor Heatran can't take a Dark hit now
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Though I think you can use an All-out attacker set with Low Kick against Heatran instead of SD if you have SD BP Celebi. This can also be useful against Tyranitar.
 
So, with Landorus-I facing a very probable ban, what do you guys think about balanced teams? They were pretty prominent recently, and may become even more in case one of their biggest pains is kicked to Ubers.
 
Thing is, balance isn't the only archetype that would gain from the Landorus ban. Landorus is very good against offense as well, as it's a nightmare to switch into. Rock Polish variants are particularly noteworthy as a Rock Polish can easily win the game against an offensive team without enough priority (which explains the rise of Weavile on these teams). Stallish teams also benefit as Calm Mind Landorus-I variants are also very threatening to them. Really, every team style would benefit from a Landorus-I ban. I think offense teams have the most to gain from a Lando-I ban, as even though they'll still struggle against the likes of Mega Lopunny, they have one less set around that can 6-0 the team style.

I will miss the days of my Magnet Rise Klefki walling many a Landorus though (Earth Power/Knock Off/Sludge Wave/U-Turn are the ones I've seen the most, though I know U-Turn is a bit of a rarity). But I'm fairly sure Lando-I's days in OU are numbered.
 
Defensive and Balanced teams definitely gain the most from Landorus-I ban. Its too difficult to switch into while Offensive teams can apply much more pressure to it when it hits the field in the form of powerful priority users, limiting its ability to set up if its a CM/RP set, or just outspeeding it since its not exactly fast compared to many offensive threats.
 
CM Landorus gone - Defensive teams becomes better.
RP Landorus gone - Offensive teams becomes better.
Mix Landorus gone - Balance teams becomes better.

Its hard to say which type of teams gain more from the ban of something when that something threats all of them pretty much the same.
 
scattered mind said:
CM Landorus gone - Defensive teams becomes better.
RP Landorus gone - Offensive teams becomes better.
Mix Landorus gone - Balance teams becomes better.

Its hard to say which type of teams gain more from the ban of something when that something threats all of them pretty much the same.
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So then we can agree this thing going would make every team archetype better in some way. See, this is the purpose of these suspects. To slowly but surely make every playstyle as good and equally viable as we can. This is why Landorus I needs to go. It is a step in the right direction, however, sadly, we have many more to go before we reach that goal.
 
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So it seems that the advantage of speed Weavile has over Bisharp made people to use Choice Scarf Bisharp- Thats new and interesting.
Choice Scarf Bisharp is certainly unpredictable atm. Instead of taking Draco/ Thunderbolt while being on low hp, it outspeed Latios and finish it with Knock Off.
I just wonder what is it's full move set and if it really worth it. the regular sets of Bisharp are predictable but still effective and giving up on SD and the ability to switch moves kind of hurts.
 
In a way, Choice Scarf isn't bad at first glance. Bisharp wasn't a fan of staying in anyway after it threw a Knock Off. Choice Scarf basically replaces Sucker Punch, so no more mind games with setup sweepers or Substitute users. Plus, you can still try to run Sucker Punch in order to outspeed priority users or faster/Scarfed mons. What is used in place of Sucker Punch and Swords Dance though?
 
I'm guessing it's Iron Head / Knock Off / Pursuit / Stone Edge, Low Kick, or Psycho Cut. The fourth moveslot is honestly a mystery to me, but it's not really needed outside of nailing a few things like Talonflame, Thundurus, Heatran, Tyranitar (harder), opposing Bisharp, or Keldeo. You could probably even run Sucker Punch just to hit faster Pokemon like Scarf Latios and Agility M-Metagross, but then you deal with being locked into Sucker Punch haha.
 
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Makes sense I guess. As I said, I can't truly consider Scarf Bisharp as something bad. It sacrifices its ability to sweep as easily (apart from SD, let's not forget the power drop from LO and the more than probable change of nature from Adamant to Jolly), but in return gets some important KOs. I just can't see it as a very effective Scarfer overall though. There are other Pokemon that can run a Scarf more efficiently. Scarf Bisharp could be used as a lure, but in the large picture it seems a bit gimmicky.
 
Chaos Jackal said:
Makes sense I guess. As I said, I can't truly consider Scarf Bisharp as something bad. It sacrifices its ability to sweep as easily (apart from SD, let's not forget the power drop from LO and the more than probable change of nature from Adamant to Jolly), but in return gets some important KOs. I just can't see it as a very effective Scarfer overall though. There are other Pokemon that can run a Scarf more efficiently. Scarf Bisharp could be used as a lure, but in the large picture it seems a bit gimmicky.
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Agreed. If I'm looking for a Scarf user, I'd want something to with a little more speed and power to handle more threats. Scarf Bisharp is outsped by Lopunny, M-Alakazam, +1 Gyarados, +1 M-Charizard X, +1 Dragonite, +1 Jolly M-Altaria, and +1 Jolly Tyranitar if you run Adamant. Some of these Pokemon are even handled by BlackGlasses Sucker Punch once weakened, so I really don't see the point. If you're looking for a scarf user, there are others out there faster and with harder hitting attacks. If you're looking for a lure, there are things out there that actually lure in desired threats (I don't see how Scarf Bisharp lures at all, sorry).

To me it just seems like a cop out to avoid Sucker Punch 50-50's by ensuring you go first. That's cool if you're not skilled at reads, but this isn't really a winning idea in the long run.
 
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Yeah there are better things that could get a choice scarf. I think it's kinda lolsy to lock yourself into one move just to go around Sucker Punch's speed. Weavile is pretty much superior if you're going for a fast Dark-type; it's fast, can switch moves, gets priority Ice Shard, and hits practically everything Bisharp does except Fairies. The only other thing that Bisharp really does that Weavile can't is pressure Defog users.
 
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