Discussion The worst XY set?

[mordacazir]

So, I saw the thread with the best XY set, so I thought, why not have one with the worst?

The set I REALLY REALLY REALLY don't like, is phantom forces. I know, it has Batlle compressor, VS seeker, Manectric EX and much more, but 2 words ruins that all: Night March. Night March whas too OP. Rogue decks couldn't be played anymore except if it was to only counter night march, a lot of decks had an auto-loss against it, and I think there only where 3 good decks in the whole format.

 

[Otaku]

So, I saw the thread with the best XY set, so I thought, why not have one with the worst?

There are a few reasons why this might be a bad idea.

1. "Worst sets" are an inherently negative concept; seems like it is easier for people to overreact, either in their initial post when they make a mountain out of a molehill or afterward when someone goes to set the record straight. Hint: Together, you and I are going to come at least close to this already. >.>
2. XY-era releases are still legal for Standard play. I believe this means it is really too early to tell, as something that makes a set awesome, awful, or something in between may not have yet been revealed. While this is true for anything still Expanded legal, I feel more comfortable making this call once the set is Expanded-Only (and since they haven't been rotating Expanded...).
3. Like you said, there is another thread like this... and I didn't think it was alone. Aren't there two to three other threads like this? Even if the focus is a little different, there is a natural overlap.
4. There are releases during this time that are not officially part of the XY-series: Generations and Double Crisis. They are only unofficial because one is a full bonus set (even if it is mostly of reprints) and one is a mini-set. They follow all the templates of the other XY-era releases, however, so ought they to be valid choices or not?

The set I REALLY REALLY REALLY don't like, is phantom forces. I know, it has Batlle compressor, VS seeker, Manectric EX and much more, but 2 words ruins that all: Night March. Night March whas too OP. Rogue decks couldn't be played anymore except if it was to only counter night march, a lot of decks had an auto-loss against it, and I think there only where 3 good decks in the whole format.

Yeah, if you're going to start a thread like this do not share your own opinion in the opening post. This has become a slightly advanced bit of netiquette (as I've recently learned). If your opinion proves unpopular or contentious, you risk everyone focusing on arguing it, rather than sharing their own thoughts on which expansion is the worst. I actually disagree with your reasons for suggesting XY: Phantom Forces as the worst expansion, but as I went to explain them away, I realized I might have to suggest it myself for reasons you didn't give. Or gave as reasons why you didn't want to nominate the set. @_@ I go long (no surprise), so I'm putting it behind spoiler tags. If you don't care, don't worry about reading it.

Spoiler

In this case, I can totally see calling XY: Phantom Forces the worst of the XY-series, but you leave out the reason that is hard to argue:

Lysandre's Trump Card was released in XY: Phantom Forces.

When the-powers-that-be release the first card to be banned in Modified (Standard) play in about 15 years, and only the third such card in the history of the game, that is a very bad thing. Not only because the unbalancing effect it had upon the game while present, but the continuing imbalance caused by it being gone. You brought up Night March... what do you think Lysandre's Trump Card helped to counter? Unlike with Karen, Lysandre's Trump Card allowed a Night March player to try and set up over and over again, but Night March decks have a lot of "moving pieces": cards that need to be played with at least some degree of skill or else the whole thing breaks down. That breakdown can take many forms; usually whiffing on a badly needed OHKO or accidentally tossing something you shouldn't. Even when Night March got all its goodies from the discard pile back, having to do it all over again gave the deck fits. If you look, other cards were probably designed with the assumption Lysandre's Trump Card would be a factor of competitive play and became more potent for its absence.

You listed a few cards you thought of as reasons for XY: Phantom Forces not to be the worst set... but it mostly just exposes your own bias. Battle Compressor, VS Seeker, etc. all enabled some potent strategies... and ruined some as well. That is how it works in a TCG that isn't well balanced. Pokémon is far from the worst, for all I know it could be the best, but that is mostly because customers don't demand better, so we get 100 card expansions where 50 cards are hopeless, 25 have a slight chance, 15 are good, and 10 you have to have, either because they are vital to one of the major archetypes, or to all decks from that point on. @_@ Night March got a lot of grief because it was popular. Never mind that it was a great example of diversity and (for the Pokémon TCG) innovation. The normally filler Evolving Basics and Stage 1 forms of some other cards got a useful attack, and with a lot of skill in deck build and play, it became very competitive. At a time when too many were mad that you needed really rare cards (often Pokémon-EX) to have a competitive deck, we got Night march; the focus ended up on Commons and Uncommons, maybe with a Mew-EX (an inexpensive Pokémon-EX due to its availability).

Night March never won the World Championships. It was only seen as the top deck for three to six months of its time in Standard. I ran it and I certainly wasn't going undefeated. There are a few decks that really were hurt by its existence, but most that were also struggled against the rest of the competitive metagame. For that matter, look at what Night March used (and basically needed); because of modern Vespiquen decks, I assume Battle Compressor merely helped, but take away the overpowered stuff that shaped most of the metagame like Battle Compressor, Double Colorless Energy, Professor Juniper/Professor Sycamore, and Shaymin-EX (XY: Roaring Skies 77/108, 106/108) and Night March would never have been. Double Colorless Energy, in particular, is essential to it.

 

[NY TCG HUnter]

You know, I'll never understand why the sets have to be so many cards. You said it above, like 70% of the cards are hopeless in game play and are strictly for collecting. I'd prefer a SOLID/Well balanced 50-60 card set where all the cards have some chance at seeing game play. I know this is a tall order, but as much as I like collecting, I like to have more options when it comes to game play and new sets. It seems that everyone is just trying to get those 10 cards that everyone is playing and all the others are just junk.

 

[Otaku]

You know, I'll never understand why the sets have to be so many cards. You said it above, like 70% of the cards are hopeless in game play and are strictly for collecting. I'd prefer a SOLID/Well balanced 50-60 card set where all the cards have some chance at seeing game play. I know this is a tall order, but as much as I like collecting, I like to have more options when it comes to game play and new sets. It seems that everyone is just trying to get those 10 cards that everyone is playing and all the others are just junk.

The short answer is that the Pokémon Trading Card Game is meant to appeal to three distinct groups: players, collectors, and those who are neither. The last of those is easy to please; release cards with Pokémon on them. Maybe make sure they have enough foil cards for the magpie effect. Collectors are the ones who really did the large sets. Players are more concerned about the underlying game. The thing is, when done right this benefits us all. We all want different things from the game, but it can provide those things to us at a lower cost because of it. Players focus on what they need for playing, collectors want everything but usually just as singles, and non-player/non-collectors just want what they want.

I want less dangerous filler in sets. What do I mean by "dangerous filler?" Two possibilities; questionable reprints (including old cards under a new name) and cards with little hope of proving competitive. The former is only an issue when it messes with card retention as it pertains to set rotation; otherwise, I'm about to sing its praises! The latter isn't just annoying because it means a lot of what you buy is more or less a waste, but there is always the risk something intended as fluff (safe filler) ends up having some serious ramifications. I think Tropical Beach is still the go-to example; it wasn't the first or the last promo to have use for competitive play, but it is the one that proved the most useful with such a small, specific supply.

Yes, this is still the short answer. XP Now, some collectors love having to complete larger sets. Most like pulling premium rarity cards. There are also some players who are all about figuring out how to make use of questionable cards. Though players are the smallest group, what we want usually affects the other two groups least; the-powers-that-be can seek to separate us from our money without compromising their plans for the other two larger groups. My hypothesis is that problem filler can largely be eliminated without hurting sales to the other two groups. If smaller sets aren't possible, then a shift to more premium rarities to fill out the numbers could help. Wait, how does that help players? Because though higher rarities aren't going to contain "exclusive" cards. Parallel holos are one great example of this. So are Full Arts and whatever we are calling the higher rarities in Sun & Moon. I can also see treating some high rarity cards as "preprints"; just get players used to something starting out as a rare+ card, but don't worry, next expansion will have it again, and at least one rarity lower.

 

[NY TCG HUnter]

Fantastic post Otaku. Everything you said is pretty much spot on. I fall into a mix of collector (primary) and casual player (TCGO mostly). I would love to play more of the game IRL, but I fall into the "older" category when it comes to Pokémon (I am in my forties) and I feel, well...old when I am in that environment. As for figuring out the mechanics of the cards and making them "work" in the competitive world, well...I don't know how you do it. Best I can do is take an already made deck and slightly modify it with some of the recommendations I see in this or other forums. I just don't have the skill to "see" the card combinations and build it from scratch to make it effective. That takes some real patience and knowledge of ALL cards available to you.

 

[AccelJow]

For me, there aren't any sets I straight up disliked, but I did get booster fatigue from how many Furious Fist packs I've opened over the last few years lol.

 

[Ninjabot 215]

Hmmm.... The worst XY set.... Really, there weren't any "bad" XY sets overall, however, competitive wise it has to be Evolutions.

Now, don't get the wrong idea, I have no problem with the Evolutions set, in fact, I love the nostalgia factor of it, the problem is, it added very little to competitive play and was mostly a set for the 20th anniversary like Generations was.

But, despite how un-competitive the set was, it wasn't a "bad" set.

 

[GengarGuy]

Hmmm.... The worst XY set.... Really, there weren't any "bad" XY sets overall, however, competitive wise it has to be Evolutions.

Now, don't get the wrong idea, I have no problem with the Evolutions set, in fact, I love the nostalgia factor of it, the problem is, it added very little to competitive play and was mostly a set for the 20th anniversary like Generations was.

But, despite how un-competitive the set was, it wasn't a "bad" set.

I think that competitive wise, EVO was the worst set. Also outside of competitive, the only expensive cards you could pull would be a FA charizard. Every set out of XY has seen play. XY=Yveltal FLF=MChar/Blacksmith and M Kangaskhan FFi=Lucario PHF= Everything PCL= Primal Groudon and Kyogre RS= Shaymin, Mega Ray, VS Seeker AO=Giratina and Sceptile and Hoopa BKT= M Mewtwo, Xerneas, Typhlosion, Yveltal, Octillery BKP= Greninja Break and Darkrai EX FC= Glaceon EX, Zygarde/Carbink Break
SS= Fa Sycamor, Talonflame, Volcanion, Mega Gardevoir EVO= Diddly Squat

I mean, why put such a nasty end to such a great Era?

 

[Ninjabot 215]

I think that competitive wise, EVO was the worst set. Also outside of competitive, the only expensive cards you could pull would be a FA charizard. Every set out of XY has seen play. XY=Yveltal FLF=MChar/Blacksmith and M Kangaskhan FFi=Lucario PHF= Everything PCL= Primal Groudon and Kyogre RS= Shaymin, Mega Ray, VS Seeker AO=Giratina and Sceptile and Hoopa BKT= M Mewtwo, Xerneas, Typhlosion, Yveltal, Octillery BKP= Greninja Break and Darkrai EX FC= Glaceon EX, Zygarde/Carbink Break
SS= Fa Sycamor, Talonflame, Volcanion, Mega Gardevoir EVO= Diddly Squat

I mean, why put such a nasty end to such a great Era?

True, true.
At least the cards looked like the base set though ;-;

Also: PHF: everything <---------------------------------------------------------completely true and accurate, thank Arceus it's rotating soon

 

[Latte1504]

Also: PHF: everything <---------------------------------------------------------completely true and accurate, thank Arceus it's rotating soon

Already out of Standard, and I would be surprised to see it leave Expanded for at least 3-4 years.

 

[BraviaryBoi]

You hate PHF just because of night March?
Why did everyone hate night March? It wasn't that scary.

PHF is a completely overpowered set and honestly made the game kinda awful to play. That being said, as I cannot change how the game works, PHF is undisputebly the BEST XY set.

But as this is a thread about the WORST XY set, I'd have to say Evolutions was really bad. Hardly any playable cards and I hate base set formatting. After that, Fates Collide as it brought us N, a neat DCE art, some gimmicky fossil stuff, and not much else really. (Okay, I originally forgot about zygarde/carbink and glaceon but the set as a whole was still pretty depressing to have. I've got a box of it in my room minus the ultra rares and I really couldn't pull anything out of it for my binders wether it was for tradabilty or playability.)

 

[Fishman6007]

I agree about Evolutions not being a favorite of mine. However, I do like the FA Misty's Determination and play it in a couple of my decks. My favorite set for trainers is definitely Break Point. Max Potion, Max Elixir, Fighting Fury Belt, and Bursting Balloons.

 

[Latte1504]

I agree about Evolutions not being a favorite of mine. However, I do like the FA Misty's Determination and play it in a couple of my decks. My favorite set for trainers is definitely Break Point. Max Potion, Max Elixir, Fighting Fury Belt, and Bursting Balloons.

In my opinion, Battle Compressor on its own is good enough to outclass all of those trainers.

 

[Fishman6007]

In my opinion, Battle Compressor on its own is good enough to outclass all of those trainers.

Yes, Phantom Forces had great trainers too (vs seeker, Battle compressor, trick coin, head ringer).

 

[Scoop]

I mean, worst can be used in many different contexts here. Do you mean worst as in quality, playability, production, etc? I could think of many sets that fit one or more of these criteria. Might as well go on a ramble about a few sets that got me.

XY-Flashfire was a set I'm personally not fond of. Set had pretty bad art, only a small few playable cards, and was overall really made to pander to Genwunners with, what was it, seven Charizards? The set felt unnecessary if you want me to be brutally honest. It was sort of a filler to Furious Fists, which was, although one of the lesser sets, still felt like it was more of a main set and not complete filler.

XY-Evolutions was another set that felt kind of lazy. The set added next to nothing to the game, and of course, more Gen 1 fanservice.(I do realize that it was for the 20th anniversary.) It was a nice touch to see a rebirth of all the original cards, and a new look on some older cards(Giving the Kanto megas Spirit links and full arts made me somewhat excited at release, as I always wanted to try out Mega Venusaur's attack as a fun deck). The issue I have with it is that, being the last set of XY, you'd expect something more like Black & White-Legendary Treasures to be the sort of "celebration" of what the era has given.(My only slight issue with LTR was that the EX's were straight reprints, though it's not a huge problem, I liked a lot of the BW-era EX card artworks, especially the ones by Shizurow, so it wasn't a huge deal). Maybe it was for the better though, that we didn't get certain cards in for longer. It's quite conflicting when you think about it. The XY era feels like it was left somewhat unfinished, but at the same time the metagame can't stay stale, we need to move onto newer concepts(And trust me, I'm quite excited to see what the new GX era has in store). I guess, if anything Evolutions should have added more to the game instead of being pure fanservice. It's really not even fun to collect, as nearly everything in it has been done before. If anything that was the set's biggest issue. Although Generations did straight reprints, all the Ultra Rares were new, there were some viable cards, and the pull rates were great. If anything, they could have made Evolutions and Generations one and the same, and it would have been a way nicer set, either as a main or a side set.

I don't know if this is my own issue, but most of the cards made in XY-Fates Collide were a lot lower quality than cards made in the past. The foiling effects were see-through, the cards in general felt....Rougher? It's hard to explain. Maybe the printing company they went to was just worse or something. Not a problem with the set, the set itself was alright but it was definitely the most poorly-made of the era in terms of card quality(but I bet I'm really the only one who cares about this.)

 

[Blob55]

Generations, because they decided to include Chikorita in that one side deck instead of Bulbasaur.

 

[Otaku]

It was sort of a filler to Furious Fists, which was, although one of the lesser sets, still felt like it was more of a main set and not complete filler.

XY: Furious Fists was a very important set, containing cards like Korrina, Strong Energy, and Seismitoad-EX. If it seems like a "lesser set", it is more the timing (released right before XY: Phantom Forces) and fact that what many of us expected to matter, didn't (Fighting-focused set, most important card is Basic Water-Type Pokémon-EX XP). At least, those are my thoughts on the matter. Otherwise, I think you made some good, persuasive points.

Edit: Oh, and XY: Flashfire catered to Charizard fans, not Gen I fans in general. I can't call Gen I my favorite Generation because it isn't. I definitely am fond of it, though, but Charizard gets a lot of exposure and tends to be so overrated by those ignorant of how the TCG actually works. I have a hard time fighting the nerd rage when someone goes on about how Base Set Charizard was the strongest card (EVAR!) in the old days. XP Unless you meant Genwunner in the derogatory sense, in which case they won't bother with any release post Gym Challenge.

 

[the real spheal]

The worst XY set was evolutions.
Not trying to offend anyone when I say that though.
Flash fire was my second worst though, even though there was a Spheal in it.
I just don't like Charizard.

 

[Scoop]

XY: Furious Fists was a very important set, containing cards like Korrina, Strong Energy, and Seismitoad-EX. If it seems like a "lesser set", it is more the timing (released right before XY: Phantom Forces) and fact that what many of us expected to matter, didn't (Fighting-focused set, most important card is Basic Water-Type Pokémon-EX XP). At least, those are my thoughts on the matter. Otherwise, I think you made some good, persuasive points.

Edit: Oh, and XY: Flashfire catered to Charizard fans, not Gen I fans in general. I can't call Gen I my favorite Generation because it isn't. I definitely am fond of it, though, but Charizard gets a lot of exposure and tends to be so overrated by those ignorant of how the TCG actually works. I have a hard time fighting the nerd rage when someone goes on about how Base Set Charizard was the strongest card (EVAR!) in the old days. XP Unless you meant Genwunner in the derogatory sense, in which case they won't bother with any release post Gym Challenge.

Yeah, should have worded it better. I always saw Furious Fists around the "average" level of XY sets, seeing how much Roaring Skies, Phantom Forces and even Ancient Origins added to the game. But I will admit that Toad and fighting support was a heavy addition to the game, looking back on those days.


Right...I should have also worded that better. I always kind of group "genwunnets" and chatizard fanboys. Really correct but its a habit

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I think that competitive wise, EVO was the worst set. Also outside of competitive, the only expensive cards you could pull would be a FA charizard. Every set out of XY has seen play. XY=Yveltal FLF=MChar/Blacksmith and M Kangaskhan FFi=Lucario PHF= Everything PCL= Primal Groudon and Kyogre RS= Shaymin, Mega Ray, VS Seeker AO=Giratina and Sceptile and Hoopa BKT= M Mewtwo, Xerneas, Typhlosion, Yveltal, Octillery BKP= Greninja Break and Darkrai EX FC= Glaceon EX, Zygarde/Carbink Break
SS= Fa Sycamor, Talonflame, Volcanion, Mega Gardevoir EVO= Diddly Squat

I mean, why put such a nasty end to such a great Era?

Just wanted to say that Pidgeot-EX has seen play in a competitive environment before. Its seen more play than that M Char you're talking about.

As for me, I would say the worst XY set (in terms of competitive play) was Flash Fire. Nothing in that set really stuck and even the cheeky Blacksmith decks didn't work all that well. The only deck it works for is Expanded Volcanion.

The worst EX set in terms of collectible has to be Generations. I know it isn't really an XY set but still released in the block. The biggest issue here was you couldn't buy single packs, outside of buying product that cost 30 bucks. They also didn't have booster box odds so each "box" you bought was a complete crap shoot. Also Articuno and Zapdos full arts were hard to pull for no reason at all.